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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
I mean is a book shaped daemon really knowledge? By that logic the Verenans would be honor-bound to run across the field and throw their bodies in front of a Changer of Ways because it once taught someone magic, therefore contains knowledge. I mean does the shape of he daemon really matter to have it considered worth preserving.

Also on that note 'preserve all knowledge' is kind of a strike against the notion of he gods evolving purely organically (which i had until now been a supporter of) since I do no think that would have developed on its own given the danger involved.
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The actual strictures of Verena, the first and second, are the following:

• Safeguard knowledge, for it is the foundation stone for civilisation.
• All knowledge is equally important.

Verena doesn't necessarily say preserve all knowledge, she just says that all knowledge is equally important and safeguard knowledge in general, which has some room for interpretation. Another stricture helps confine the limitations here:

• Preserve your judgement from fear or favour.
• Do not allow yourself to become a tool of injustice or heresy

Verena's strictures are a topic of much debate, and there is no central hierarchy to define it. Each temple is a sect of the cult in and of itself.
 
Boney said:
The Chromatic Tome, which is literally a Daemon that tweaks the lessons on magic within on the fly to better drive the reader into heresy and damnation?
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Wait, what if a daemon shaped daemon rather than a book shaped daemon, showed up and said it would give magic lessons to anyone who asked. Would they be compelled to shelter it as well?
What if theres a murderer walking to the gallows but he's going to die without telling anyone his recipie for perfect saurkraut. Would the Veranians attempt to stop the execution until they've got that recipie?
E: Mathilded I guess.
 
Boney said:
"What did Verena mean by 'knowledge'?" is the kind of question that gets thrown into a Verenan conference like a grenade. The general definition they seem to work off is 'something that is, or that can be, written down', and that people that know things should be persuaded to sit down with a scribe rather than protected in their current form, and if they're antithetical to civilization (like a Changer of Ways) they represent more of a threat to the preservation of knowledge than they do a source of knowledge that needs to be preserved. But the Chromatic Tome is shaped like a book and can be locked in a safe and left to its own devices without anything going terribly wrong so it's almost perfectly designed to slip into Verenan collections. Where exactly the line gets drawn is one that could really use a solid and well-thought-out answer, but the structure of the Cult of Verena is incapable of producing it.
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Let's hope no enterprising Daemon ever teaches the Verenans a spell for turning other daemons into books, or they might think they are honor-bound to use it. :V

Seriously, that would make a cool chaos plot.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Wait, what if a daemon shaped daemon rather than a book shaped daemon, showed up and said it would give magic lessons to anyone who asked. Would they be compelled to shelter it as well?
What if theres a murderer walking to the gallows but he's going to die without telling anyone his recipie for perfect saurkraut. Would the Veranians attempt to stop the execution until they've got that recipie?
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Another of their strictures is "Do not allow yourself to become a tool of injustice or heresy", so there is a strictural counterbalance to the preservation of knowledge. But there are historical examples of unambiguous good being performed with knowledge taken from the darkest of sources - the prevention of Emperor von Carstein comes to mind - so Verenans in general don't see preserving heretical texts as 'becoming a tool of heresy'.
 
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The thing that confuses me the most is the word "heresy". I looked for the definition of the word to get a proper bearing as to what counts, but by god is the definition broad:

"belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine." or "opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted."

What, then, counts as heresy? This looks like a profoundly individual assessment, especially since the Verenans are largely at odds with the Sigmarites and don't bend to the authority of the Empire that they reside in completely, so clearly what they consider "heresy" would vary wildly, especially since what is "generally accepted" can vary wildly and can change with time. An excellent example of this is Magic. 200 years ago it was illegal and you would be burnt for it, definitely heresy. Now, while the populace might not be super happy about it, it's generally accepted that the Colleges are a thing so it's no longer heresy to practice regular magic if you're affiliated.

From what I'm reading in Tome of Salvation though, these debates are super common and it's something the Verenans relish. They are literally a "debate me" crowd.
 
Codex said:
The thing that confuses me the most is the word "heresy". I looked for the definition of the word to get a proper bearing as to what counts, but by god is the definition broad:

"belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine." or "opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted."

What, then, counts as heresy? This looks like a profoundly individual assessment, especially since the Verenans are largely at odds with the Sigmarites and don't bend to the authority of the Empire that they reside in completely, so clearly what they consider "heresy" would vary wildly, especially since what is "generally accepted" can vary wildly and can change with time. An excellent example of this is Magic. 200 years ago it was illegal and you would be burnt for it, definitely heresy. Now, while the populace might not be super happy about it, it's generally accepted that the Colleges are a thing so it's no longer heresy to practice regular magic if you're affiliated.

From what I'm reading in Tome of Salvation though, these debates are super common and it's something the Verenans relish. They are literally a "debate me" crowd.
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The English definition of 'heresy' is very monotheist. In the Empire it would also mean worship of or service to a proscribed God, especially the Chaos Gods. Until Magnus and Teclis, it was generally believed to be impossible to use magic without worshipping or serving Chaos in some way. But yeah, the edge cases and exact definitions would be things Verenans spend a lot of time arguing about.
 
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I found this thread very interesting and possibly useful for if Boney ever wants to include the Cathayan names for the Chaos Gods: r/totalwar - Chinese names of the new Cathay LLs and Chaos Gods + their meaning

A summary of the relevant parts:

Tzeentch: Jian Qi = 奸奇

  • 奸 Jiān - "Traitorous; deceiving; offensive"
  • 奇 Qí - "Strange, bizarre"
  • Translation: "Deceiving Strangeness"
Nurgle: Na Gou = 纳垢

  • 纳 Nà - "To soak; to gather"
  • 垢 Gòu - "Dirt; filth"
  • Translation: "Gathering Filth"
Slaanesh: Se Nie = 色孽

  • 色 Sè - "Looks; lewdness; outward beauty"
  • 孽 Niè - "Evil; vileness"
  • Translation: "Lewd Vileness"
Khorne: Kong Nüe = 恐虐

  • 恐 Kǒng - "Terror; fear"
  • 虐 Nüè - "Mutilation; torture; violence and cruelty"
  • Translation: "Terrifying Violence"
The collective title for them is: 混沌四神 (Hundun Sishen, Four Chaos Gods) or 四邪神 (Sixieshen, Four Dark Gods). The Chinese for 'Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne' goes 血祭血神 顱獻顱座 (xue ji xue shen, nu xian nu zuo).

I just thought it was neat for if the Cathayan names for the Dark Gods ever became relevant.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Let's talk library design. I am not a library scientist nor a historian, so all information here has been compiled from frenzied googling and wiki walking.
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The good news is that next week I complete my Library Science Masters degree. The bad news is that I spent the last two years researching an obscure bit of modern copyright law, so the history of librarianship and library design isn't my topic of speciality (I do have an amateur interest in history as well, but I wouldn't call myself an expert, though).

That said, I am literally qualified* in this sector, so if people have questions on librarianship that are also relevant to Divided Loyalties**, I can try to answer them.

*well, about to be qualified. Still need to finish and submit my dissertation. Stares in agony at a blank manuscript

**mostly to stop the thread being sidetracked into long and irrelevant discussions of library and information science.

Anyway, Redshirt's idea of a chained library seems like a good place to start. Chetham's Library in Manchester (oldest public library in the English speaking world) uses a similar design, and is famous for having John Dee, who was court magician to Queen Elizabeth I, as head librarian (you can still see the scorch marks in his office from that time he summoned a demon), as well as being the place where Marx and Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto.
 
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I'm a bit amused by how they chose to translate Tzeentch. 好奇 means "curious" in Chinese; they replaced 好 with 奸, both to match the pronunciation of his name and his domain--奸奇 can still mean curiosity (as an invented phrase, since it doesn't actually exist in a dictionary), just with a far more sinister (i.e., treacherous) bent.
 
I feel like people are assuming I'm joking but aside from when I specifically indicated so with a tone tag I've been fully serious. I genuinely believe that by creating Umbramancy and utilizing Dhar we can do far, far more good then would be possible otherwise, and share Malthide's dislike of Sigmar (although I extent it towards his empire as well)
 
Godwinson said:
Ah yes, orangutan level discourse.
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Heh, that reminds me of a story I heard third or fourth hand about two geologists who got into a fist fight over two contradictory properties of magma in the Royal Society headquarters itself.

Plot twist—a few years later a third researcher proved that under certain conditions, magma could exhibit either property, proving both of them right.

Academics are crazy.
 
Ultrackius said:
I feel like people are assuming I'm joking but aside from when I specifically indicated so with a tone tag I've been fully serious. I genuinely believe that by creating Umbramancy and utilizing Dhar we can do far, far more good then would be possible otherwise, and share Malthide's dislike of Sigmar (although I extent it towards his empire as well)
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You may not be joking, but this is a topic much examined, and the answer is pretty much a clear no, we could not.
It is literal mind poison and will fuck you up no matter how well meaning you are.
 
Valmond said:
You may not be joking, but this is a topic much examined, and the answer is pretty much a clear no, we could not.
It is literal mind poison and will fuck you up no matter how well meaning you are.
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mind poison that we are 1. Immune to, and 2. Wouldn't be too much an issue anyway. Vanhel never went murder crazy, and neither would we
 
Valmond said:
You may not be joking, but this is a topic much examined, and the answer is pretty much a clear no, we could not.
It is literal mind poison and will fuck you up no matter how well meaning you are.
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I mean, you could make a very strong argument that the only reason the Empire still stands is because someone chose to ingest that poison and do some good with it. Mathilde herself seems to think so, considering she listed Frederik amongst rulers who sacrificed themselves when cheering up Belegar.
 
Ultrackius said:
mind poison that we are 1. Immune to, and 2. Wouldn't be too much an issue anyway. Vanhel never went murder crazy, and neither would we
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Arguments that have been made, debated over, and then dropped.
If you are going to read the story and comments, you are going to eventually land on those arguments.

Omegahugger said:
I mean, you could make a very strong argument that the only reason the Empire still stands is because someone chose to ingest that poison and do some good with it. Mathilde herself seems to think so, considering she listed Frederik amongst rulers who sacrificed themselves when cheering up Belegar.
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And then stopped, or died, before everything went horribly wrong.
Mathilde trying to cheer up near suicidal friend is not a source of measured arguments on what is and is not useful thing to do long term.
 
Ultrackius said:
mind poison that we are 1. Immune to, and 2. Wouldn't be too much an issue anyway. Vanhel never went murder crazy, and neither would we
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1. The belt makes us immune to the physical corruption of Dhar. Channeling a second wind—whether that is Shyish or Ashqy or Dhar—will still drive us insane. The whole wind magic thing means you have to cultivate a specific mindset to use that wind, and using two winds means having two mindsets, which is literally insanity and will very likely result in the quest ending shortly afterwards. The only people who can avoid this are Brettonian Damsels and maybe Kislev Ice Witches, and Mathilde won't be able to do what they did because she's turned a significant portion of her soul into Ulgu. We can't use a second wind, period. We can't even use divine magic—no Ranaldian miracles for us.

2. Van Hel did go crazy. He became a paranoid monster that believed the people he was defending had turned against him, and was planning on launching a surprise attack against the Empire before they could attack him. Vlad had to put him down like a rabid dog in the end.
 
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Valmond said:
Arguments that have been made, debated over, and then dropped.
If you are going to read the story and comments, you are going to eventually land on those arguments.
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Yeah, it's kinda hard to argue with a person who doesn't have the whole picture yet. I keep wanting to bring in certain elements that I'm not sure they're even reached yet, which makes correcting things kinda difficult when you're not sure if they've even reached the end of the Liber Mortis segments.

Because this is indeed a subject that has been debated many times, though I think "dropped" is a bit too strong a word considering that there are still significant parts of the thread that disagrees.

Valmond said:
And then stopped, or died, before everything went horribly wrong.
Mathilde trying to cheer up near suicidal friend is not a source of measured arguments on what is and is not useful thing to do long term.
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I am pretty sure that an existing Empire is a pretty strong argument in favour though.

She also only listed Frederick mentally, she didn't mention any names out loud to Belegar. If she had any significant asterisks attached to the guy, he wouldn't be on her shortlist of people to compare Belegar to.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
2. Van Hel did go crazy. He became a paranoid monster that believed the people he was defending had turned against him, and was planning on launching a surprise attack against the Empire before they could attack him. Vlad had to put him down like a rabid dog in the end.
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Vlad could've just avoided this whole thing by making Frederick a vampire but noo, apparantly the Von Carstein name is reserved for the likes of Manfred.

What's with Van Hals dying near vampires before anyone gets the chance to convert them? Even Roswita, the one Van Hal we know is very cognizant of her family line's high mortality rate, seems resistant to the one known cure for dying young. <.<
 
Valmond said:
And then stopped, or died, before everything went horribly wrong.
Mathilde trying to cheer up near suicidal friend is not a source of measured arguments on what is and is not useful thing to do long term.
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Both Mathilde and Algard do consider Wind magic as superior to Dhar. However both seem very aware of how it can go wrong.

Mathilde considering Dhar inherently corruptive for 'ordinary' humans (which was basically confirmed by Vlad, aka one of the original vampires in the Liber Mortis) but still worth it if that's necessary meshes quite well with the Wind magic - and really basically all magic - is safer but still very dangerous attitude.
 
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