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It's pretty explicit in the text; the use of Necromancy drove him insane. It's not "propaganda", Mathilde saw his decline as recorded in his very own journal for herself, and attacking and invading the Empire is an evil act, and one Mathlide could never bring herself to do, due to her rather justified pre-existing loyalties to the Empire.

I'm not sure it was a first order result of him using Necromancy that drove him mad, but instead the ambient levels of Dhar in his environment that his use of Necromancy produced that he was then exposed to.

Mathilde's belt would burn off that ambient Dhar protecting her from that heightened exposure.

The problem with that is that people have suggested that the Ancestor Gods would switch her belt off if she deliberately started developing Umbramancy.
 
This is probably partly a carryover from when all magic was considered derived from Chaos and therefore heretical, and partly a matter of practicality, as it wouldn't work well to have one group for hunting Chaos Sorcerers and another group for hunting all other unlicensed magic-users when it would be really hard to distinguish between them based on uneducated eyewitness reports.
A simple guide to identifying magic users for the unfamiliar:
  • If it has tentacles: It is a heretical daemon.
  • If it has skulls and stuff: It is a heretical necromancer.
  • Anything else is a heretical witch.
In all cases the correct response is burning.
 
I'm not sure it was a first order result of him using Necromancy that drove him mad, but instead the ambient levels of Dhar in his environment that his use of Necromancy produced that he was then exposed to.

Mathilde's belt would burn off that ambient Dhar protecting her from that heightened exposure.

The problem with that is that people have suggested that the Ancestor Gods would switch her belt off if she deliberately started developing Umbramancy.
Plus, there's also the problem that even if the belt's rune can't be switched off like that, we'd still be pumping out a ton of dhar over time. Mathilde might be immune to it, but the people and land around her most definitely aren't. Slowly poisoning the world is just an inherent side effect of dhar usage.
 
Just going to interject here, being the kid of the previous Emperor is no guarantee of being voted for by the other Elector Counts, and so Mannfred is not heir to the Imperial Throne. The best Karl Franz managed in the first round of the Elector's Meet was keeping Boris Todbringer from gaining the votes needed to win, so they had to reconvene.

What Mandred is heir to, is the title of the Prince of Reikland. Still significant, of course, given that Reikland is one of the Empire's breadbasket regions and at the heart of the Reik river trade, not even mentioning being the home of the Colleges of Magic.
To be fair, Karl didn't want the job originally. He even voted for Todbringer himself I believe.
 
Plus, there's also the problem that even if the belt's rune can't be switched off like that, we'd still be pumping out a ton of dhar over time. Mathilde might be immune to it, but the people and land around her most definitely aren't. Slowly poisoning the world is just an inherent side effect of dhar usage.

Oh, completely agreed on that. Although given how the reactivation of the Karak Eight Peaks Waystone dissolved a great lump of Warpstone, presumably back into Dhar, and sucked it away, that may become a more manageable issue in controlled environments with functioning Waystones, after we understand what they can do more.
 
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A simple guide to identifying magic users for the unfamiliar:
  • If it has tentacles: It is a heretical daemon.
  • If it has skulls and stuff: It is a heretical necromancer.
  • Anything else is a heretical witch.
In all cases the correct response is burning.
But what if it's already on fire?

And I'm sure there's a "One Weird Trick Witchhunters hate!" joke somewhere here, but I can't think of it.
 
Oh, completely agreed on that. Although given how the reactivation of the Karak Eight Peaks Waystone dissolved a great lump of Warpstone, presumably back into Dhar, and sucked it away, that may become a more manageable issue in controlled environments with functioning Waystones, after we understand what they can do more.

I was going to say, dhar is a problem but you know one we're working on with the current project, if we overachieve here like we've done in every other major project we've worked on (not particularly likely) then actually one that's potetentially solveable.

Dhar is only bad if the waystones can't just suck it down and pump it out into the void.
 
Oh, completely agreed on that. Although given how the reactivation of the Karak Eight Peaks Waystone dissolved a great lump of Warpstone, presumably back into Dhar, and sucked it away, that may become a more manageable issue in controlled environments with functioning Waystones, after we understand what they can do more.
I don't think it dissolved it, the Warpstone just broke off the Waystone and was eaten by trolls.
 
I don't think it dissolved it, the Warpstone just broke off the Waystone and was eaten by trolls.
Pretty sure that's not what happened. The waystone reactivating seemed to literally dissolve it all and suck it down.
This is the exact wording:
In Kvinn-Wyr, Trolls that have licked and gnawed at warpstone for decades shove and scratch and bite at each other for the chance to grab fistfuls of the stuff and shove them into their slavering maws as it crumbles from walls, leaving clean, bare stone underneath.
Neither they "ate it all" or "waystone dissolved it" describes it accurately because all that is said is that it crumbles from walls.
 
This was the thing I remember which had me thinking the waystone sucked down large amounts of the warpstone.

King Belegar frowns at the eighth and final sapphire, which throbs with sullen energy as it objects, but King Belegar simply pushes harder. With a reluctant pop it clicks into place, and glows a sickly green for half a second before bursting back into clear blue light once more, and the seven others follow suit, an inner glow growing inside each.

Clearly some of the warpstone was sucked down into the waystone but that's the extent of it supported by the text.
 
This was the thing I remember which had me thinking the waystone sucked down large amounts of the warpstone.



Clearly some of the warpstone was sucked down into the waystone but that's the extent of it supported by the text.
Or it could be that it was just a "purge" and it removed the clog, resulting in the warpstone crumbling. Any remnant warpstone chunks might have dissolved into nothingness because you're correct and the waystone sucked it up, or the trolls ate all of the crumbs so when they were exterminated nothing was left to check out. We have no way of confirming either way.
 
or the trolls ate all of the crumbs so when they were exterminated nothing was left to check out. We have no way of confirming either way.
I mean, I reckon if the trolls had eaten the Warpstone, at least some of them would've been quite noticeably mutated. Just a brief physical contact with the raw stuff can be enough to induce mutation in most forms of life, let alone ingesting sizable amounts of it.
 
I mean, I reckon if the trolls had eaten the Warpstone, at least some of them would've been quite noticeably mutated. Just a brief physical contact with the raw stuff can be enough to induce mutation in most forms of life, let alone ingesting sizable amounts of it.
Yeah the trolls at the top of the mountain were already super mutated before the warpstone crumbling. I doubt the people who went up there to kill them analysed before and after and took measurements and notes on the additional mutations they got and how they differed from before the warpstone crumbled.
 
Eh, this post got away from me slightly.

Dhar is only bad if the waystones can't just suck it down and pump it out into the void.
Just wanted to note that we have confirmation that it is indeed so:
[...] a bloom of Dhar forms and begins to spread, slowly but interminably. You expel the Ulgu and activate the protections of the Room of Calamity, and the curdling Winds are drawn out of the room and flushed into the air.

There's no danger in that, you remind yourself. You looked into it when you first built the room. At this height it will be blown away, and if it blows west or east or south it will be one more drop in the oceans of the Badlands or the Dark Lands or Nehekhara, and if it blows north it will be drawn into the Waystone network and be dealt with by the ancient artifice of the Elves. When you learned that the Karak itself is eight enormous Waystones it simplified it even further. Within the hour it will have been captured by one of them and will be on its way to Karaz-a-Karak, where some ancient Runic masterpiece will somehow break it into usable and benign energy.

So in a suitable environment we can use multiwind manipulation enabled by Dhar-glue as safe as usual wind casting, because we are not manipulating Dhar itself, just using effects of its presence to manipulate other winds, so no adverse mental effects associated with mindset required to manipulate Dhar.

Or at least it seems like it, so why not spend an AP on researching it to confirm or reject it? If it would work and would not be too dangerous, it would be very useful.

There were arguments that it's not worth it, but I don't think they are convincing; let's compare with the reading of Liber Mortis.

First point, by Mathilde's understanding, investigation of Dhar-glue multiwind casting would be breach of Articles, and if she would willingly do it, her mental well-being would decrease because of the damage to her identity and feeling that she might be betraying some of her ideals.

It was the same with Liber Mortis, the difference was just a matter of degree. Mathilde herself states that reading Liber Mortis is not a breach of the Articles only on technicalities, and, implicitly, only based on her understanding:
One might be able to make an argument that simply reading the Book didn't count as 'study' under Article 7, but such was the reputation of the book that if anyone ever found out about it, no amount of technicalities could protect you.
And of course it was mentally straining for her, but with suitable preparation it was ok:
You are well aware of the weakpoints of the human mind, so even though there's no magical traps you take precautions against the more mundane kind. A roaring fire, a comfortable chair, Wolf curled up at your feet dreaming puppy dreams, a glass of brandy - insulation for the soul. You wait for your hands to stop shaking, and then you turn past the title page you first saw on the outskirts of a battlefield in Sylvania.
With keeping it secret and understanding that reading the book was worth it because of insights, knowledge, and abilities it granted, Mathilde was alright.

Second point, that it would not give us enough actionable benefits, that we could not use it and could not teach it because if we reveal it, we would be killed. Well, it's exactly the same as with Liber Mortis, we could not ever reveal that we had read it, but:
At the very least the insights it contained could be a powerful tool against the undead and possibly even the Skaven, but it could also contain deeper secrets on the nature of magic itself.
It gives us insights and knowledge on how things work, and just as knowledge from Liber Mortis was useful, knowledge gained from studying Dhar-glue multiwind casting would be useful. And just as abilities we acquired from Liber Mortis (e.g. second secret, forget about necromancy) is another tool we can use in a hypothetical extremely dire situation, it is possible that we would get comparably useful and not too dangerous abilities from the study of Dhar-glue multiwind casting.

So overall for investigation of Dhar-glue multiwind casting it seems that the risk is slightly higher, and reward maybe is slightly lower compared to reading Liber Mortis, but it's still worth testing. If it would be revealed as too dangerous, Mathilde would not use it; otherwise, great! new applicable techniques and abilities! And doesn't matter if some of them must be kept secret, Mathilde's on her own in plenty of situations. And it both cases it would give us new knowledge and insights, which would be very good.
 
I'd forgotten that is was as explicit as that about the Waystones flushing out Dhar.

I wonder if this is how the elves learn High Magic. They practice sitting on top of or next to a Waystone and if they screw up and cross the streams they expel the magic and let the Waystone suck it away.
 
Eh, this post got away from me slightly.


Just wanted to note that we have confirmation that it is indeed so:


So in a suitable environment we can use multiwind manipulation enabled by Dhar-glue as safe as usual wind casting, because we are not manipulating Dhar itself, just using effects of its presence to manipulate other winds, so no adverse mental effects associated with mindset required to manipulate Dhar.

Or at least it seems like it, so why not spend an AP on researching it to confirm or reject it? If it would work and would not be too dangerous, it would be very useful.

There were arguments that it's not worth it, but I don't think they are convincing; let's compare with the reading of Liber Mortis.

First point, by Mathilde's understanding, investigation of Dhar-glue multiwind casting would be breach of Articles, and if she would willingly do it, her mental well-being would decrease because of the damage to her identity and feeling that she might be betraying some of her ideals.

It was the same with Liber Mortis, the difference was just a matter of degree. Mathilde herself states that reading Liber Mortis is not a breach of the Articles only on technicalities, and, implicitly, only based on her understanding:

And of course it was mentally straining for her, but with suitable preparation it was ok:

With keeping it secret and understanding that reading the book was worth it because of insights, knowledge, and abilities it granted, Mathilde was alright.

Second point, that it would not give us enough actionable benefits, that we could not use it and could not teach it because if we reveal it, we would be killed. Well, it's exactly the same as with Liber Mortis, we could not ever reveal that we had read it, but:

It gives us insights and knowledge on how things work, and just as knowledge from Liber Mortis was useful, knowledge gained from studying Dhar-glue multiwind casting would be useful. And just as abilities we acquired from Liber Mortis (e.g. second secret, forget about necromancy) is another tool we can use in a hypothetical extremely dire situation, it is possible that we would get comparably useful and not too dangerous abilities from the study of Dhar-glue multiwind casting.

So overall for investigation of Dhar-glue multiwind casting it seems that the risk is slightly higher, and reward maybe is slightly lower compared to reading Liber Mortis, but it's still worth testing. If it would be revealed as too dangerous, Mathilde would not use it; otherwise, great! new applicable techniques and abilities! And doesn't matter if some of them must be kept secret, Mathilde's on her own in plenty of situations. And it both cases it would give us new knowledge and insights, which would be very good.


Don't get me wrong in a world where AP space wasn't a concern I'd be jumping on that proposed line of research to continue researching this, in practice though I think we sort of lack the available AP to get to the point where it's worth the marginal returns, the only reason I could see to genuinely push further down that line is because we might want greater insight into the other winds of magic for dispel purposes.

I don't think the benefits outweigh the cost in actions to get them with this, had clean Ulgu tongs worked out it would be different.

I think AV is the next most promising line of research for Mathilde personally and I believe there's an awful lot of personal use hidden behind the actions we have left for it.
 
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