Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
and any notes nagash might have had on divine magic would be nice too.

The Nine Books of Nagash are probably a very different thing to the Liber Mortis though, and much more dangerous
Skarsnik was a "Boss". He is dead now. That means a fight for the right to lead os triggered.

A goblin boss isn't a big enough deal for a major fight to replace him. The gang that he lead might have a scrap about it, but it wouldn't be something that even virtually all of the greenskins in Karag Rhyn would notice. We also know that his killer usurped his position anyway.
 
Last edited:
The Nine Books of Nagash are probably a very different thing to the Liber Mortis though, and much more dangerous


A goblin boss isn't a big enough deal for a major fight to replace him. The gang that he lead might have a scrap about it, but it wouldn't be something that even most of the greenskins in Karag Rhyn would notice.
It might he when he was leading a bunch of orks in the biggest peak in the hold.

And he may have been a warboss. Orks use boss to describe anyone above them on the pole.
 
That is the mentality of most PCs unless one bakes a strict code of conduct into them I'm afraid. By the simple virtue of being the player character Mathilde is special in ways no one else in the quest world is and it is our task to lead her along the path. Is is so strange that some of us want to take risks to change the world? (I'm talking about stuff like the Ranald vote more than the Liber Mortis here since that is no more of a risk reading it than owning it).
To be fair, Player Characters are generally immune to some pressures that can be brought to bear on NPCs. It's pretty hard to directly overcome the moral compass of the players. They're just more vulnerable to different pressures in return.
So, so we're all on the same page, why do people think Orcs streaming from the other peaks to the Citadel is an attack Greenskin vs Greenskin?
I may be misremembering but I think that there was something on how the Citadel was the actual headquarters of the Black Orcs?
Here:
It's not just the Citadel that's moving. The caldera beyond is built up from wall to wall with greenskin hovels and then built on top of itself alongside each edge, to the point where you can barely see any bare stone anywhere beyond the Citadel. And it is swarming like a kicked anthill. Some of them seem to be pouring into the southernmost Karag, which memory tells you is Karag Rhyn, but most are flowing towards the Citadel. Are they attacking it or joining it? You can't see the far side of the Citadel to know for sure.
That's where Skarsnik and presumably any other groups affiliated with Only Mork were. They're probably enacting a purge. Now, what that critical mass of Greenskins will do once they're done with that...

As for the book, I think you guys are underestimating the likelihood of the Grey College having interrogators who won't ever be sure that Mathilde is telling the truth. They might believe it, but they won't be sure, and that lack of surety will lead to - at best - restrictions like "you're not allowed to leave College Grounds, or study unsupervised."

And that's before getting into the fact that they'd call in the Patriarch of the College to have a rummage through our mind and expose the lie for what it is just as a basic precaution. It's not going to work.

Skarsnik was a "Boss". He is dead now. That means a fight for the right to lead os triggered.
Yeah, a boss of other half-grown runts in a back-tunnel gang of baby goblins, not the Warboss of the peak.
 
Every Necromancer that has ever lived uses True Dhar, which is magic which is not split into the Winds. As do all the dark elf sorcerers using black magic. And (apparently) the Clan Skyre warlock engineers and Clan Eshin assassins as they cast using warpstone.

Plenty of people use undifferentiated magic as well/instead of the Winds. Perhaps the majority of spellcasters in the Warhammer do. The problem is that the only type of undifferentiated magic virtually everyone has access to is True Dhar, which is corrupt. The only humans we know who are exceptions are Mathilde with the snake juice and (probably) Elsbeth von Draken, with the ashes of a dead god she has.

The snake wasn't a daemon but was a creature of undifferentiated magic so we know such things exist.

The energy of the geomantic web that the Slann can use may be undifferentiated magic as well, given that it existed before the Winds.
Also add dwarf runes to the list. It is also form in undiferentiated magic. But do You consider dwarwen runes a form of casting?

Going through Your list. Dark elves magic is either dhar, or chaos-based. Warpstone use speaks for itself - we all know what warpstone is and how it affects world. Elspeth von Draken had divine artifact but herself was Amethyst wizard. Slanns artifice is a geomantic web which is the same type of thing as dwarwen runes in terms of required work and type of effect.

As for True Dhar? Depends which version of lore You read, but in most it is not undiferenciated - and as Boney mentioned that he yet have to make decision as to what true dhar really is. Until he does, arguments based on true dhar are rather academic.
 
[X] Keep to the original plan. Find the invasion force and join them as they fight their way through Karag Nar.
The original plan was made knowing that there was a great big pile of gold here. The pile of gold is still here and is just as large. Nothing in the original plan has changed to justify derailing it, unless its to run to defend the oncoming wave.
 
Why would Nagash have notes in it? Wasn't it written by van Hal's ancestor? Was his ancestor secretly Nagash?

This is has been confusing me for a while not as I binged through the quest, since the Liber Mortis is the Book of Nagash Arkhan starts with in Total Warhammer, and the one Mathilde has is supposedly the original, but it was also written by some dude in Sylvania, which I'm pretty sure Nagash predates by at least one whole civilization?

The Liber Mortis is the the foundational work of necromancy only one iteration removed from the books of Nagash, the Great Necromanvcer himself based his magic lore on Nehekaran Theurgy which he practiced in his youth.
 
The Nine Books of Nagash are probably a very different thing to the Liber Mortis though, and much more dangerous


A goblin boss isn't a big enough deal for a major fight to replace him. The gang that he lead might have a scrap about it, but it wouldn't be something that even virtually all of the greenskins in Karag Rhyn would notice. We also know that his killer usurped his position anyway.
I'm sorry, I got confused.
 
It would be awfully awkward if we thought we had triggered a bigass sally, only for it to be an internal conflict and for Kragg to trigger it believing it had already been triggered.
 
Well, orc leadership isn't just leadership fights. The Waagh has to acknowledge and back the new Boss after all, and I think the issue is that both Skarsnik and the Black Orc Warbosses were given Waagh 'presence' beyond what they should have as 'prophets'.
With the ritual a bust, their successor is dealing with a normal level of Waagh with an outsized command and all hell breaks loose since the Waagh isn't letting them command that many, when they hadn't earned it.
 
Why would Nagash have notes in it? Wasn't it written by van Hal's ancestor? Was his ancestor secretly Nagash?

From what I remember it is a compilation based on whatever bits of the books of Nagash van Hal's ancestor could find.

It would be awfully awkward if we thought we had triggered a bigass sally, only for it to be an internal conflict and for Kragg to trigger it believing it had already been triggered.

Anything that gets the greenskins attacking when they're confused and disorganized is probably a win.
 
[X] Keep to the original plan. Find the invasion force and join them as they fight their way through Karag Nar.
The original plan was made knowing that there was a great big pile of gold here. The pile of gold is still here and is just as large. Nothing in the original plan has changed to justify derailing it, unless its to run to defend the oncoming wave.
That's kind of completely wrong. The plan has changed in that the only piece we have that can act on it (us) is exhausted and having issue with the simplest of magic.
 
I don't remember that.

But that does remind me that we should compile our teams of Undead Reports (including seeing if they've kept at it since we left) into a proper Monster Manual: Sylvania.

Publish or die, y'know?

There's also the fact that it's valuable information that, according to Boney, would otherwise be left in an archive for a hundred years until someone stumbles upon it, were we to just hand over piles of reports.
Apologies for the double-post, but wouldn't having published such a book, at any point in time, make it a million times more suspicious for us if we ever tried to hand The Book off to wherever we may-or-may-not decide to hand it?

(like, with the deceiver we could probably convince whoever we hand it off to personally, but the next person he tells is going to be giving us, our book, and The Book the side-eye and might put a lot of things together.)

EDIT: Talking about that, that's a flaw that the deceiver has that I'm not sure has been noted on before; we convince one person (semi)reliably, but if they then go on to act on the lie in such a way as it makes it obvious to outsiders that he's been lied to, people would start to suspect he's been manipulated in some way.
 
Last edited:
You missed the point. A "combination of self awareness and a sufficiently suspicious mind" is not enough.

Because it does not twist people's perceptions.

It's the difference between casting Charm Person on the target and drinking a Potion of Glibness.
Why do you think so?
Imagine a person who only ever thinks of something they are told as x% likely to be truth, x% to be a lie. If they suddenly believe something to be 100% truthful (if perhaps mistaken), 0% to be a lie, it would be like a blob of color on a black and white picture, it would not belong there. They would believe the lie, such is the power of Ranald, but the Coin says nothing about the effect being unnoticeable.

Depending on how the Coin works exactly this could be more or less easy to notice, but it is certainly possible.
 
As for the book, I think you guys are underestimating the likelihood of the Grey College having interrogators who won't ever be sure that Mathilde is telling the truth. They might believe it, but they won't be sure, and that lack of surety will lead to - at best - restrictions like "you're not allowed to leave College Grounds, or study unsupervised."

And that's before getting into the fact that they'd call in the Patriarch of the College to have a rummage through our mind and expose the lie for what it is just as a basic precaution. It's not going to work.
Not underestimating.
A fundamental part of the strategy is not let anyone know. Period. If they are calling in the super interrogators who cannot be convinced and the mind disassembly, that...I recall was one of the potential consequences of being known to have the book. Doesn't matter if you read it, are truthful or lying.

They'd ream you to be sure.

The best defense is being an exemplary Grey Wizard, not doing stupid things like conjuring shadow daemons or raising the dead, not reading the forbidden book where you might be seen, not letting anyone know you have the book who you can't trust with your life.
In which case you are never investigated destructively when the normal means clearly are working.
 
Last edited:
Not underestimating.
A fundamental part of the strategy is not let anyone know. Period. If they are calling in the super interrogators who cannot be convinced and the mind disassembly, that...I recall was one of the potential consequences of being known to have the book. Doesn't matter if you read it, are truthful or lying.

They'd ream you to be sure.
Yeah, I was really talking to the "we can use the Coin to give away the book safely" crowd.
 
Simple fix. Read the book and study the magic theory, not the necromancy. Then we are not in violation of article 7.
Yea. We dont want necromancy. We want magical theory.

You know what I will get mad about this.
None of y'all are thinking in-character.
What does Mathilde see when she looks at the liber mortis? She sees a book of necromancy. She doesn't have any in-character reason to read the unredacted, original liber mortis. There is only one reason someone not trying to murk a truly massive horde of undead (a la that dude in the end times) reads the liber mortis: to learn how to manipulate dhar via shyish, aka necromancy.
And oh look we have Mathilde's opinion on necromancers.
So you keep things as simple as possible. "This," you call out, "is a necromancer. The penalty for necromancy, as we all know, is death." You turn to the pyre, regarding the man tied atop it; his mouth is very firmly gagged and his fingers broken to prevent any last-minute spellcasting, and you can barely hear his muffled attempts at screaming from where you are as he thrashes helplessly against the bindings. "The corpses he defiled took a great many of our comrades from us. And they took the life of the Elector Count Abelhelm Van Hal." You're hugely relieved that your voice doesn't crack at that. He can take so much, you reflect, and you can only take his life once. It will have to do. "The penalty for every one of those lives taken, is death."

There are words for this, for ordering an execution; ritual and formality used by judges and witch hunters alike. Van Hal would know the words, but you don't.

So you look at the man, one of the necromancers that raised and directed the horde that had cost you and Stirland so much, and say nothing. You take the torch from the brazier, walk up to him, and hold it to the kindling. It takes barely a second to catch, and you drop the torch and back away as the flames start to climb, banishing the evening chill. You turn and regard the gathered men, who's eyes are universally locked onto the pyre as the necromancer thrashes and screams into his gag. Some few are sickened, but most watch with grim satisfaction. These men are Stirlanders, and have lived in the shadow of Sylvania their entire lives, as their parents have and as their children will. After today, Sylvania will have one less horror to inflict upon the innocent.

You turn back to the pyre, catching glimpses of the necromancer's terrified and agonized expression through the rising flames, and smile.
To pretend otherwise is either character acting or blatant ignorance.
 
Why do you think so?


They think so because they're anti-Liber Mortis and that's all there is to it. The possibility this actually allows the pro-Liber Mortis faction to read it at last has them ignoring anything the QM posts/confirms because that means their view is wrong, and thus the pro-Liber Mortis faction is gaining ground which they doesn't want.

If the Grey College/paranoid people can work around a Divine Relic, that means they can shout the other side down. If NPCs can't work around a Divine Relic, then they can't shout the other side down and they panic because that's not the way they want the quest to go and feels it will change the quest entirely.

Personally, I don't care if we read Liber Mortis or not. We're doing just fine as we are right now and we have the snake juice to experiment with and discover. On the other, I'm not blind to the benefits Liber Mortis can bring us but nor do I feel the need to push for it at every turn when, like I said, we have the snake juice to experiment with first and other things. Not to mention bringing it up so often just engenders bad feelings among the neutrals because of the blow-ups both camps have so frequently.
 
What does Mathilde see when she looks at the liber mortis? She sees a book of necromancy. She doesn't have any in-character reason to read the unredacted, original liber mortis. There is only one reason someone not trying to murk a truly massive horde of undead (a la that dude in the end times) reads the liber mortis: to learn how to manipulate dhar via shyish, aka necromancy.
There is no logical connection in your argument dude.
 
You know what I will get mad about this.
None of y'all are thinking in-character.
What does Mathilde see when she looks at the liber mortis? She sees a book of necromancy. She doesn't have any in-character reason to read the unredacted, original liber mortis. There is only one reason someone not trying to murk a truly massive horde of undead (a la that dude in the end times) reads the liber mortis: to learn how to manipulate dhar via shyish, aka necromancy.
And oh look we have Mathilde's opinion on necromancers.

To pretend otherwise is either character acting or blatant ignorance.

This is outright disingenuous, no one wants to practice necromancy. We just want to read the damn book. Are the wizard lords who read the empire's copy of the Liber Mortis necromancers? Should we hunt them down and kill them?
 
Why would Nagash have notes in it? Wasn't it written by van Hal's ancestor? Was his ancestor secretly Nagash?

This is has been confusing me for a while not as I binged through the quest, since the Liber Mortis is the Book of Nagash Arkhan starts with in Total Warhammer, and the one Mathilde has is supposedly the original, but it was also written by some dude in Sylvania, which I'm pretty sure Nagash predates by at least one whole civilization?
A bit of all of that, or none of it.

I think the Liber Mortis being a book of Nagash in canon is up in the air, if I remember correctly, though my memory is very, very sketchy on that, but the general consensus for this story is that it's not, it was written by Van Hal the first, who cribbed his notes from the Books of Nagash but cut out the ancient not-Egyptian parts to create a more scientific treatise. The end result was a book worth mentioning in the same sentence as those other texts, but which was... clinical might be a good way to put it. So tightly controlled that even though it's one of the OG books of dark magic it won't do anything to you except teach you what's inside it. (The issue is that everybody else who got to read from it was a weak willed idiot in comparison to its creator, so they all went mad from power and ambient Dhar exposure and cause oodles of trouble.)
And that's before getting into the fact that they'd call in the Patriarch of the College to have a rummage through our mind and expose the lie for what it is just as a basic precaution. It's not going to work.
Could you provide a quote on where he could do that? Because I'm pretty sure that actually reading people's minds is one of the very, very few things that Ulgu can't help people do.
What does Mathilde see when she looks at the liber mortis? She sees a book of necromancy. She doesn't have any in-character reason to read the unredacted, original liber mortis. There is only one reason someone not trying to murk a truly massive horde of undead (a la that dude in the end times) reads the liber mortis: to learn how to manipulate dhar via shyish, aka necromancy.
We know about that Grand Theoganist who annihilated that army of the undead with a page from it, presumably.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it heavily implied in the letter we got from Van Hall posthumously that he'd read it to better understand the undead?

On a different topic, if we really pushed our magical and intrigue skills to our current limit, could we anonymously deliver The Book to, say, the grand cathedral of Sigmar (or wherever) without it being traced back to us by the various diviners and detectives that the empire would surely have try and find the person who did it?

EDIT: I kind of wish we could get a better read on how Hall got The Book and what his reasons were for not passing it 'up the chain' as it were. Did he have reason to believe that wherever it would end up was insecure, or was it general mistrust of the authorities that would be deciding where it goes?
 
Last edited:
Voting is open
Back
Top