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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Enerael said:
Imagine a person who only ever thinks of something they are told as x% likely to be truth, x% to be a lie. If they suddenly believe something to be 100% truthful (if perhaps mistaken), 0% to be a lie, it would be like a blob of color on a black and white picture, it would not belong there. They would believe the lie, such is the power of Ranald, but the Coin says nothing about the effect being unnoticeable.

Depending on how the Coin works exactly this could be more or less easy to notice, but it is certainly possible.
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What you are describing is a machine. People cannot think that way.
 
Harried said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it heavily implied in the letter we got from Van Hall posthumously that he'd read it to better understand the undead?
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Once we got the Libris Mortis we pretty much realized where Van Hal got his incredibly accurate undead notes. Better than what we learned in College, better than what we could get the college to mail copies out of secure grounds, and enough theoretical understanding to give tips on how to dissect a whole new kind of undead and understand how it works.

Its a bit of a...dead giveaway if you knew what he had.
 
MooseHowl said:
I have new wrinkle to add, stumbled upon courtesy of some rereading.



Underlined for emphasis.
Mathilde has already perused the "Liber Mortis", and would be lying if she claimed she hadn't. :V
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Could do some interesting comparative histography with those two books to see what the college and witch hunters considers too dangerous or what additions they added that might be 'weird'.
 
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On top of the Grand Theogonist's army of undead killing spell, there's the fact that it's a book about using a wind of magic to manipulate something that isn't a wind of magic, which is relevant to both of our major research avenues (snake juice and divine magic). We know this in character I think, so it would make sense to read it with proper precautions.

But I'm going to stop talking about it until it becomes relavant for voting.
 
veekie said:
Once we got the Libris Mortis we pretty much realized where Van Hal got his incredibly accurate undead notes. Better than what we learned in College, better than what we could get the college to mail copies out of secure grounds, and enough theoretical understanding to give tips on how to dissect a whole new kind of undead and understand how it works.

Its a bit of a...dead giveaway if you knew what he had.
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While possible, I don't think that necessarily follows, at all. He had other sources than are given out to Journeyman wizards. There were published works on undead.
Also family knowledge and a twenty year Hunter career focusing almost entirely on undead.
 
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DocMatoi said:
What does Mathilde see when she looks at the liber mortis? She sees a book of necromancy. She doesn't have any in-character reason to read the unredacted, original liber mortis. There is only one reason someone not trying to murk a truly massive horde of undead (a la that dude in the end times) reads the liber mortis: to learn how to manipulate dhar via shyish, aka necromancy.
And oh look we have Mathilde's opinion on necromancers.
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She does have an in-character reason(s) to do so though: the snake juice and the Winds and being able to know how to better destroy the dead on par with Van Hal which is what the pro-Liber Mortis faction keep talking about and what the anti-Liber Mortis side (Yourself included) keep ignoring.

From what I've seen, no one but the occasional troll/delusional lunatic keeps trying to read the Liber Mortis to start the Necromancer!Mathilde journey/quest that (for whatever reason) the anti-Liber Mortis faction keep imagining. It's been pretty universal that the pro-Liber Mortis side want to read it in hopes of better combating the undead and using the Winds and ideally helping in discovering the snake juice's properties and things we can do with it*.

Granted, the Anti-Liber Mortis side is entirely right about how bad it is being caught with the book and the possibility of the book corrupting us and shit, but that honestly comes down to the Dice from what I can tell. Nobody seems seriously willing to narratively pursue Necromancy and ruin what's been built up over the course of this quest thus far.

In any case, Mathilde might know it as a book of necromancy with all the bad connotation therein thanks to prior stories but until she actually reads it, she doesn't know what it actually contains in regards to the undead I believe. And either way whether we read it or not, until it's settled once and for all, we're all gonna have to deal with the blowups from both camps over the book.

*Granted the quest can do the snake juice shit without it, but apparently there's some hope it might have some clues?
 
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I'm getting real tired of this entire coin and bluff thing.
QM has already stated that the coin is an internalized effect. We do not cast any divine magics outward to warp peoples perceptions. It's just that we're able to act as if we, with all sincerity (for example) believe that all Orks are Pink, and being able to act with genuine surprise when confronted with the truth.
 
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DiceOfStupidity said:
Also add dwarf runes to the list. It is also form in undiferentiated magic. But do You consider dwarwen runes a form of casting?

Going through Your list. Dark elves magic is either dhar, or chaos-based. Warpstone use speaks for itself - we all know what warpstone is and how it affects world. Elspeth von Draken had divine artifact but herself was Amethyst wizard. Slanns artifice is a geomantic web which is the same type of thing as dwarwen runes in terms of required work and type of effect.

As for True Dhar? Depends which version of lore You read, but in most it is not undiferenciated - and as Boney mentioned that he yet have to make decision as to what true dhar really is. Until he does, arguments based on true dhar are rather academic.
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Dark elves don't use regular Dhar techniques. They apparently crush the Winds back together through sheer willpower and arrogance so they recombine to form one substance again. It's the inverse of high magic. They're not doing the same thing as hedge wizards. Dark elves also hate chaos and all its works (they're descended from the dark elves who hated chaos so much they fully embraced their darker nature). They worship order gods, albeit very unpleasant ones (with the occasional exception of Morathi, depending on edition). There are chaos elves living up in the chaos wastes, but they're not affiliated with the dark elves any more.

Elsbeth apparently used the god's ashes to make herself immortal. I think she made the artifact from a piece of a god

Warpstone is solidified undifferentiated magic as far as I know. One of the reasons that Necromancers are so keen on the stuff is apparently because Black Magic doesn't occur naturally so they can't cast their magic unless they're in location modified to produce it, or they need warpstone. That's one of the advanatges vampires apparently have, that they can manufacture True Dhar from the Winds of Magic, as dark elves can, but in a different way.
 
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Khepri14 said:
They think so because they're anti-Liber Mortis and that's all there is to it. The possibility this actually allows the pro-Liber Mortis faction to read it at last has them ignoring anything the QM posts/confirms because that means their view is wrong, and thus the pro-Liber Mortis faction is gaining ground which they doesn't want.

If the Grey College/paranoid people can work around a Divine Relic, that means they can shout the other side down. If NPCs can't work around a Divine Relic, then they can't shout the other side down and they panic because that's not the way they want the quest to go and feels it will change the quest entirely.

Personally, I don't care if we read Liber Mortis or not. We're doing just fine as we are right now and we have the snake juice to experiment with and discover. On the other, I'm not blind to the benefits Liber Mortis can bring us but nor do I feel the need to push for it at every turn when, like I said, we have the snake juice to experiment with first and other things. Not to mention bringing it up so often just engenders bad feelings among the neutrals because of the blow-ups both camps have so frequently.
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I mean, I'm pro-reading the Liber Mortis, and will be arguing to do so once we warp up here. I'm just saying that we have not gained the ability to admit to possession of it.
 
The reason this discussion keeps going for pages and pages, without rest or respite, after every update, is because it's bugging us but we can't actually do anything about it, and won't be able to for possibly real months. We can't just settle things with a vote, look at the results, and make up our minds about who's right and who's wrong afterwards, so we keep fighting it out.

It's like one of those Quidditch matches where the Snitch gets wedged under a seat for three months so they have to keep going even if there's a ridiculous point disparity, to use a hypothetical example from a hypothetical sport conceived of in another franchise.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I mean, I'm pro-reading the Liber Mortis, and will be arguing to do so once we warp up here. I'm just saying that we have not gained the ability to admit to possession of it.
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I don't think anyone is saying that we should admit to having possession of it. If they are, they're either fools or trolls. What they are saying I believe, is that all this Divine Relic does is possibly allow us a last-ditch pass for having it found on our person or something (due to dice rolls or whatever) because we could lie about not knowing what it is even though we totally know it's the actual Liber Mortis thanks to the Divine Relic.
 
Ranald the Deceiver's Coin of Flawless Lying vs Grey College institutional paranoia is pretty much unstoppable force vs immovable object. Yes, Ranald is that tricky. Yes, the Grey College is that paranoid. Any debate on it is likely to continue going around in circles, so let's shelve the matter.

Additionally, anyone that thinks they have a real doozy of an argument should get it in quick, because as of the next update I'll be declaring The Book Topic to be closed until at least the end of Expedition.
 
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Harried said:
Apologies for the double-post, but wouldn't having published such a book, at any point in time, make it a million times more suspicious for us if we ever tried to hand The Book off to wherever we may-or-may-not decide to hand it?
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Nah, we have literal years of reports from where we compile the information. We spent a while preparing for the purge of Drakkenhoff
DragonParadox said:
I'd forgotten about that. We should totally kill the Grand Theogonist too, he is clearly a necromancer in disguise in league with the Arch-Daemon Sigmar. :V
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Sigmarites, right? No great loss :V
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Nope, they are entirely wrong about this. Necromancy isn't a memetic hazard, reading it doesn't automagically corrupt us. This isn't a chaos magic tome.
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It's not a memetic hazard, no. But there might be stuff in it that could possibly lead to corruption that they're right about is what I'm saying, considering Necromancy does in fact deal with Dhar. And that shit is incredibly corruptible.

Now, like I already said, nobody seems to seriously considering narratively pursuing Necromancy and Necromancer!Mathilde, but the anti-Liber Mortis side is correct that the possibility does exist and that can't be casually dismissed.
 
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DocMatoi said:
while the book isn't, the magic itself is, due to being based on dhar, also known as dark/chaos magic.
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Which is why none of us are intending to use dhar thanks, so that's irrelevant. Also Dhar isn't chaos magic the two are related but they aren't the same. The knowledge of how Necromancy works isn't corruptive. Actually using it is, that would be utilising Shyish to manipulate all the other winds to make necromantic spells.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
With enough numbers, a disorganized attack is still worse than a smaller, organized one. Especially when we're still in a second front.
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They are orcs (and goblins) though. Giving them time to get organised and start a proper Waagh is dangerous particularly since Black Orcs are good at the whole have an organised army thing.

As long as they're just chaotically charging into dwarven artillery things are, if not ideal then at least decent.
 
Khepri14 said:
I don't think anyone is saying that we should admit to having possession of it. If they are, they're either fools or trolls. What they are saying I believe, is that all this Divine Relic does is possibly allow us a last-ditch pass for having it found on our person or something (due to dice rolls or whatever) because we could lie about not knowing what it is even though we totally know it's the actual Liber Mortis thanks to the Divine Relic.
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It was being argued that we could safely hand it in to the College for massive rep gains safely at one point.
 
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