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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Enerael said:
They will not think that we are lying, but a high Intrigue person might be able to notice that something is messing with his mind, specifically with their ability to think of what we told them as a lie. They will still not believe that we have lied because divine magic, but they will know that something about that belief is not natural. From there, considering what is being meddled with, the likely source is apparent.
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No, that's not how it works, because the person convinces himself we are sincere, we don't plant any thoughts into them.

There's no way for them to notice any meddling, because we never meddled with their minds to begin with.
 
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Basically, in order to get around the deception you need one of:
-A mind so paranoid it cannot conceive of the other party being truthful at all. Upon which their belief is instantly alarming. This isn't 40k, people at that level of paranoid are insane or zealots who already decided what is truth before they checked. In which case whether you are lying or not is unimportant, if you are under their power you're fucked already.

-Reason to believe Mathilde is mistaken or fooled by another party.
 
Horium said:
Oh for heaven's sake, we got an amazing teaser that had me all pumped up for some epic dwarf action, and here you are people beating the dead horse again, and wasting page after page arguing about that damned book.
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The dead horse being beaten is a book about necromancy, we need to read it to find out how it keeps coming back from the dead. Until then, we don't know how to stop it.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
No, that's not how it works, because the person convinces himself we are sincere, we don't plant any thoughts into them.

There's no way for them to notice any meddling, because we never meddled with their minds at all.
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To put this another way gods in Warhammer are tales that have taken on a life of their own and reflect back on reality. Randald is the tale that thieves and conmen tell each other, he is the perfect liar whom none can catch. When one calls on the power of the coin one brings that tale into reality. No matter how clever how paranoid the person Mathilde is talking to for that conversation they become a mark for the perfect liar, they cannot question it later they cannot undermine it, they have to accept it and build around it because that is the way the story goes.
 
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Thinking about it, not only it's the one way for an artifact like that to not get us instantly into hot water (because an item of actual mindfuck would), but it's also thematic. A Deceiver is, fundamentally, an actor.

It gives us a bit of Ranald's literally godly acting skill. The fucker lied his way to Ascension, he lied to a goddess when he was still mortal.

I can't think of much that could see through our act, with this gift of supercharged-deity Ranald.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Semantics, there is a world of a difference between whatever scraps of lore they hand to journeymen and the full copy, bettor than the ones the magister lords pursue.
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Everything is semantics, yes.

But the College didn't hand ANY scraps of lore to Mathilde the Journeywoman, or even let her know of the existence of the Extremely Redacted Version. And that's assuming they even knew about it or had a copy to share.
 
jjffjhjf said:
Simple fix. Read the book and study the magic theory, not the necromancy. Then we are not in violation of article 7.
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It's literally called "the book of death." It's a necromancy book. The magic theory is under the necromancy. You can't read the liber mortis, the magic "book of death" without reading about magic used to cheat death.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
 
cokerpilot said:
You know I am getting really tired of seeing this comment. There have been a few quests and stories where this line makes some sense via in character or story logic on but even then the phrase it's self is still wrong. Not only is hilariously arrogant but it also blatantly false. Knowing that there are limits to what one can do and not having endless pride in oneself is not cowardice it's common sense. It's even more ridiculous in a setting where the gods are in fact an active force and can and will either smackdown or string along with anyone stupid enough to try to toy with them without either their own divine back or major amounts of prep work and/or luck. As for you people who voted for the Ranald option the last vote and posted it... That was our character putting all of her faith in said God's ability to handle the situation and not us. Which is basically the opposite of Hubris.
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The entire point is that it's hilariously arrogant, though. It's only okay to say when it's funny, otherwise they're doing it wrong.
MooseHowl said:
Everything is semantics, yes.

But the College didn't hand ANY scraps of lore to Mathilde the Journeywoman, or even let her know of the existence of the Extremely Redacted Version. And that's assuming they even knew about it or had a copy to share.
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Elector Count Van Hal let us have a look at the redacted copy he had is pretty air-tight, though, considering I think we actually still have that one.
 
cokerpilot said:
You know I am getting really tired of seeing this comment. There have been a few quests and stories where this line makes some sense via in character or story logic on but even then the phrase it's self is still wrong. Not only is hilariously arrogant but it also blatantly false. Knowing that there are limits to what one can do and not having endless pride in oneself is not cowardice it's common sense. It's even more ridiculous in a setting where the gods are in fact an active force and can and will either smackdown or string along with anyone stupid enough to try to toy with them without either their own divine back or major amounts of prep work and/or luck. As for you people who voted for the Ranald option the last vote and posted it... That was our character putting all of her faith in said God's ability to handle the situation and not us. Which is basically the opposite of Hubris.
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Rather agree with you that it is a terrible phrase for pretty much every character in a quest.... With the glaring exception of DOOM, for whom godhood is a step down.
 
BoneyM said:
Exactly what the distinction is, is a very interesting question and one that Mathilde would have to do a lot of study to take even a guess at.
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I like this avenue of research. Mathilde also has a data point from a prior experience to ponder:
BoneyM said:
the Priest of Sigmar glows, literally glows, with what you cannot help but know is the manifestation of the truest faith in the Champion of Mankind. The gloom of the forest is driven back as a mirror to the sun in the sky bursts forth from the armoured priest, and the courage of every true servant of the Empire is bolstered as- you shake your head, trying to regain your concentration. Something about whatever it is Kasmir was doing (was it magic? was it divine? was there a difference?)
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Shard said:
Mathilde is an irreplaceable asset to Mathilde!
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And Ranald!
TotallyNotEvil said:
Also, out of the three Warbosses in the expedition's way so far (East Gates, Karag Lhune, Karag Nar), we've personally killed two.
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Dame Weber 2 : King Belegar 1
</smugsmolwizard>

Edit, oh, I had a thought on what a 1 might have meant (One Less God):
Mork flips the card table, swallows Ranald in one bite, buuuuuurps loudly.
Now he's got the additional portfolios of Deception, Protection, Night Prowling and Gambling.
Night Prowling Night Goblins.
 
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DocMatoi said:
It's literally called "the book of death." It's a necromancy book. The magic theory is under the necromancy. You can't read the liber mortis, the magic "book of death" without reading about magic used to cheat death.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
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Thats why its a trust issue, and not a corruption issue. You can read it safely, but you have to trust whoever reads it is unwilling to abuse the necromancy they can learn from it.
Reading about it does not pose any kind of memetic hazard. Abelhelm read it to produce his guide to murdering undead efficiently.
 
veekie said:
Abelhelm read it to produce his guide to murdering undead efficiently.
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I don't remember that.

But that does remind me that we should compile our teams of Undead Reports (including seeing if they've kept at it since we left) into a proper Monster Manual: Sylvania.

Publish or die, y'know?

There's also the fact that it's valuable information that, according to Boney, would otherwise be left in an archive for a hundred years until someone stumbles upon it, were we to just hand over piles of reports.
 
DragonParadox said:
You want us to tell the rune-lord who already dislikes us that we know about the dwarfs' greatest shame? That is how we get kicked out of the expedition, or if Belagar does not do that (which I am inclined to belive he will not), Kragg leaves and takes a good bit of support with him.
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I mean, I thought it was implied when I said that we'd edit the tale slightly, we'd do a once over for political incident starters, I was basically just referring to picking his brains about magic, divinity and how they interact.

(or rather, get a sentence into explaining what happened, then listen to him rant and rave for the next several hours (preferably with note-taking equipment nearby.))
 
Alratan said:
Why? As far as we know the Karah Rhyn leader isn't dead/isn't a warboss. Skarsnik was still a runt, so hadn't taken over yet (as he grew as he rose in power according to his novel).
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BoneyM said:
you see within Karag Rhyn a half-grown goblin standing motionless in horror as his place in history is usurped, even as one of his boyz takes the opportunity to usurp his Boss and slips a dagger between his ribs
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Skarsnik was a "Boss". He is dead now. That means a fight for the right to lead os triggered.
 
wrecksalot said:
and any notes nagash might have had on divine magic would be nice too.
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Why would Nagash have notes in it? Wasn't it written by van Hal's ancestor? Was his ancestor secretly Nagash?

This is has been confusing me for a while not as I binged through the quest, since the Liber Mortis is the Book of Nagash Arkhan starts with in Total Warhammer, and the one Mathilde has is supposedly the original, but it was also written by some dude in Sylvania, which I'm pretty sure Nagash predates by at least one whole civilization?
 
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