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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Deathbybunnies said:
Riveting discussion about Sigmar's penis aside, I wonder if Cathay has any Waystone-related knowledge of their own? They'd be a nightmare to get in touch with, but they have an advanced and unique magical paradigm and cover a large stretch of land at the right latitude for Waystones to have noticeable effects.

Maybe they'd make a good stretch goal for reaching out for Waystone knowledge (though outright involvement in the project might be difficult, given the extraordinary distances involved.)
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deathofrats0808 said:
Depends if they have any waystones. It's certainly not impossible, but I'm unsure the Elves ever expanded into the area, and if they didn't any waystones they'd have would be notably different at best from the ones Mathilde is assembling the expertise to work on.
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... A thought: maybe instead of Waystones or Karaks, what they have is The Great Bastion?

Maybe that's what their Great Wall does. Perhaps it just collects energy, perhaps it transforms the Winds (again) in some way, perhaps it works as a great big wind-barrier or windmill or something.

Perhaps it's calibrated to turn the Winds into something desirable or useful to Dragons rather than to Elves or Dwarfs. Where the western Dragons are faced with either abstaining from the Winds and sleeping in volcanoes, or embracing the Winds and being transformed, the Eastern Dragons instead did something funky to the northern border of their land, thereby making it easier for them to remain awake or to remain not-Wind-Dragons or something?

... Or maybe it's just a big fortification meant to hold off Chaos, and any anti-magic or anti-Wind properties are just part of anything that is generally useful to put in a fortification. :V
 
As a a general note in regards to Cathay's current lore and how it plays a factor into the setting in a relevant form to Divided Loyalties (assuming we actually hear anything about Cathay, it's pretty far away after all):

It seems like they're using those legendary Cardinal direction mythical creatures to define the areas and rulers of the provinces. North is protected by the Black Tortoise (the dark scaled Storm Dragon Miao Ying). She rules the northern provinces and her capital of Nan-Gau "The City of Smoke" which is a centre of industry and gunpowder/war machines. It also seems to be the center of Cathay's "Sky Fleet". The Northern provinces include the Great Bastion which protects Cathay from the forces of Chaos in the Steppes and Wastes.

West is protected by the White Tiger (the white scaled Metal Dragon Zhao Ming). The capital is Shang Yang, and the Western provinces includes the Warpstone Desert, the Great Maw and the borders with the mountains of mourne. It also includes many of the nomadic "Desert Clans" and is the main route from the Ivory Road leading into Cathay. This area contains a lot of valuable ores and such materials, and is a centre of trade and metallurgical development. Lots of arcane artifice and alchemy occurs here.

If the pattern is followed, then the East will be protected by the Azure Dragon (Jade Dragon). The reason for this theory is that it's been mentioned that Cathay has a "Jade Fleet", which likely means the naval fleet since the sky fleet doesn't use that name. Makes sense that the east is watched over by the fleet since that's where the coast is.

There isn't enough information to speculate about the Southern provinces, other than them bordering Khuresh and Ind and the south being the area of the Monkey King. Presumably it's ruled by the "Vermillion Bird".

The center is of course ruled by the Celestial Dragon Emperor and his wife the Moon Empress in the Celestial Court. The capital is Wei-Jin. This seems to be the center of their magical learning, as depicted with the Jade Dragon being mad at magical experimentation being employed outside the Celestial Court.

I think that, looking at this structure, it makes complete sense why Dragomas' feat was exceptional. I think even before Dragomas, there were a lot of people who ended up in Cathay over the years. Like, maybe not a constant amount, but lots of people made the trip so even if a low percentage survived it they would still end up in Cathay. So Cathay recieved contact from the outside world but it was exclusive to Shang Yang and the western provinces. What Dragomas did that was exceptional seems to be that he made his way past Shang Yang into Wei Jin and actually got an audience with the Emperor in the Celestial Court and negotiated a peace treaty, and came back able to turn into a Celestial Dragon.

If you want to contact Cathay, you either go to the Eastern Provinces through the Seas (perilous unless you're a Dark Elf, High Elf or Nipponese), or move over land into the Western provinces from the Ivory road, so the Iron and Jade Dragons recieve the most "friendly" contact with the outside world. There's also the possibility of arriving to Cathay through the Spice Road from Ind, ending up in the Southern Provinces, but that's a lengthy journey.
 
@Boney I feel compelled to ask you this question because everything I read about him confuses me. What/who is Contant Drachenfels/The Nameless? There's all sorts of conflicting canon about him and the wiki doesn't do a very good job explaining what he is. I know that his castle is a thing in DL, but I'm pretty sure he's not the same thing as in canon (I don't even know what he's supposed to be in canon. He isn't human apparently? What is he?).
 
Codex said:
@Boney I feel compelled to ask you this question because everything I read about him confuses me. What/who is Contant Drachenfels/The Nameless? There's all sorts of conflicting canon about him and the wiki doesn't do a very good job explaining what he is. I know that his castle is a thing in DL, but I'm pretty sure he's not the same thing as in canon (I don't even know what he's supposed to be in canon. He isn't human apparently? What is he?).
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His original story is that he was from a human-ish people that lived on the planet before the Old Ones came and he invented necromancy to keep himself alive. Which is impossible for several different reasons, but he predates all of the reasons it's impossible - he's from the late 80s, circa 3rd Edition or so. He should have been phased out of canon when Nagash replaced him as the inventor of Necromancy who is not quite dead and still going bump in the night somewhere, but he was in some very popular early novels and adventures and whatnot so he kept getting little shout-outs throughout the editions. His canonical story became a metajoke: he is a forgotten figure from a past era, except by past era it doesn't mean the world's past, it means the setting's past - he's not from thousands of years ago, he's from several editions ago. His inclusion in the End Times was a continued riff on this: he cannot remember his history because his history got retconned out of existence.

If I had to come up with a backstory for him that wasn't a metareference, I'd either stick as close to the original story as possible while sticking with the established metaphysics and have him as a body-hopping originally-Fimir protonecromancer, or have him as early a necromancer as possible by having him be a contemporary of Nagash, and either be a Liche like Arkhan or a Vampire progenitor of a ninth bloodline. But more likely than both I'd have him continue as he is: an oddity on the corner of the map, never important enough to take center stage but spitting out a horror or two every now and then to provide plot hooks to passing adventurers.
 
Codex said:
After finishing Realm of the Ice Queen, I'm actually much more determined to get the Ice Witches on our side. The Ice and Hag Witches are very knowledgable about spirits and the leylines of energy, and many of them outright protect the waystones and consider them sacred because it's the source of their power. I'm not sure if Mathilde knows that much though, and unfortunately we lack leverage. They helped us, we helped them, the debt is payed. I suppose we can attempt to use Liljiana as a contact?
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Thumbs down from me. I know you're excited at having read the sourcebook, but too many cooks and all that.
 
Boney said:
His original story is that he was from a human-ish people that lived on the planet before the Old Ones came and he invented necromancy to keep himself alive. Which is impossible for several different reasons, but he predates all of the reasons it's impossible - he's from the late 80s, circa 3rd Edition or so. He should have been phased out of canon when Nagash replaced him as the inventor of Necromancy who is not quite dead and still going bump in the night somewhere, but he was in some very popular early novels and adventures and whatnot so he kept getting little shout-outs throughout the editions. His canonical story became a metajoke: he is a forgotten figure from a past era, except by past era it doesn't mean the world's past, it means the setting's past - he's not from thousands of years ago, he's from several editions ago. His inclusion in the End Times was a continued riff on this: he cannot remember his history because his history got retconned out of existence.
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Also Castle Drachenfals itself has remained pretty consistently canon I believe, probably because it serves as a useful threat to Reikland/Altdorf, which meant that even as his canonicity continued to make less and less sense, Castle Drachenfals was around still strongly implying his existence.
 
Briefvoice said:
Thumbs down from me. I know you're excited at having read the sourcebook, but too many cooks and all that.
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We currently have Mathilde, three researchers with no prior knowledge of Waystones (Johann, Max, Horstmann), a Grey Lord and a Runelord. At what point is this considered too many cooks? We can attempt to extract info from the Jade and Light Orders, but there's like 50 Magisters in each of the Colleges so I would expect at most a single one from the Jade (Horstmann is already there) and they'll just give us resources and move on. Research groups for large projects can get pretty big, and so far it doesn't look like we're getting anywhere near "too many cooks".
 
I don't think it's a question about to many cooks. At the end of the day the cooks can't operate without a crew in the dishpit. Same thing applies here.
 
Boney said:
His original story is that he was from a human-ish people that lived on the planet before the Old Ones came and he invented necromancy to keep himself alive. Which is impossible for several different reasons, but he predates all of the reasons it's impossible - he's from the late 80s, circa 3rd Edition or so. He should have been phased out of canon when Nagash replaced him as the inventor of Necromancy who is not quite dead and still going bump in the night somewhere, but he was in some very popular early novels and adventures and whatnot so he kept getting little shout-outs throughout the editions. His canonical story became a metajoke: he is a forgotten figure from a past era, except by past era it doesn't mean the world's past, it means the setting's past - he's not from thousands of years ago, he's from several editions ago. His inclusion in the End Times was a continued riff on this: he cannot remember his history because his history got retconned out of existence.

If I had to come up with a backstory for him that wasn't a metareference, I'd either stick as close to the original story as possible while sticking with the established metaphysics and have him as a body-hopping originally-Fimir protonecromancer, or have him as early a necromancer as possible by having him be a contemporary of Nagash, and either be a Liche like Arkhan or a Vampire progenitor of a ninth bloodline. But more likely than both I'd have him continue as he is: an oddity on the corner of the map, never important enough to take center stage but spitting out a horror or two every now and then to provide plot hooks to passing adventurers.
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This is very informative. I didn't know that the nameless was a metajoke.

But wait, 9th bloodline? I know there are 7 bloodlines (Lahmian, Von Carstein, Strigoi, Blood Dragon, Necrarch, Harakhte and Maatmeses), but are you operating on Luthor Harkon being a separate bloodline and not a Blood Dragon? Or am I looking too deeply into it.
 
Codex said:
I commissioned my brother to do a thing, so as a result, here is the work of my brother @bluebirdhay (twitter handle).

Take this rat:
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I'd always assumed Qrech had dark fur (mostly because IIRC all Skaven did except for Grey Seers). Is his fur color artistic license, or is he described that way in the text?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. "Character turns white to show he's a good guy" is a classic visual tell :confused:
 
Boney said:
His original story is that he was from a human-ish people that lived on the planet before the Old Ones came and he invented necromancy to keep himself alive. Which is impossible for several different reasons, but he predates all of the reasons it's impossible - he's from the late 80s, circa 3rd Edition or so. He should have been phased out of canon when Nagash replaced him as the inventor of Necromancy who is not quite dead and still going bump in the night somewhere, but he was in some very popular early novels and adventures and whatnot so he kept getting little shout-outs throughout the editions. His canonical story became a metajoke: he is a forgotten figure from a past era, except by past era it doesn't mean the world's past, it means the setting's past - he's not from thousands of years ago, he's from several editions ago. His inclusion in the End Times was a continued riff on this: he cannot remember his history because his history got retconned out of existence.

If I had to come up with a backstory for him that wasn't a metareference, I'd either stick as close to the original story as possible while sticking with the established metaphysics and have him as a body-hopping originally-Fimir protonecromancer, or have him as early a necromancer as possible by having him be a contemporary of Nagash, and either be a Liche like Arkhan or a Vampire progenitor of a ninth bloodline. But more likely than both I'd have him continue as he is: an oddity on the corner of the map, never important enough to take center stage but spitting out a horror or two every now and then to provide plot hooks to passing adventurers.
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For what it's worth, when I read the original novel where he first appeared, I thought his original special power was taking the life/strength from others (possibly by murder), and it's some innate talent. That's how that scene read to me. By my headcannon, that's how kept himself alive and does the body hopping/takeover. Necromancy is just something he picked up later on.

Of course, that novel also has him control daemons and orks besides the undead, so it's even less canonical than End Times.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I'd always assumed Qrech had dark fur (mostly because IIRC all Skaven did except for Grey Seers). Is his fur color artistic license, or is he described that way in the text?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. "Character turns white to show he's a good guy" is a classic visual tell :confused:
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I think it might be more a case of him going a lighter grey with age, something I imagine most Skaven do not have a chance to do.

Also yes I know normal rats do not do that, but they also do not walk on two legs, so maybe that is the human heritage.
 
Codex said:
This is very informative. I didn't know that the nameless was a metajoke.

But wait, 9th bloodline? I know there are 7 bloodlines (Lahmian, Von Carstein, Strigoi, Blood Dragon, Necrarch, Harakhte and Maatmeses), but are you operating on Luthor Harkon being a separate bloodline and not a Blood Dragon? Or am I looking too deeply into it.
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Vampire Bloodlines seem as much cultural as they are about blood, and though Luthor was made a Vampire by either Abhorash or Walach, he significantly predates the Order of the Blood Dragon and has no link to them and no significant traits in common with them. You could take Total Warhammer into account and argue that the Depth Guard are Blood Dragon-y, but on the other side of that coin the Vampire Captains really aren't, and the possibly Stromfels-flavoured 'Lore of the Deep' some of them can cast suggests they've developed into something entirely unique.

(bonus points for the Jaded-Blooded and Mahtmasi, btw)
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
I'd always assumed Qrech had dark fur (mostly because IIRC all Skaven did except for Grey Seers). Is his fur color artistic license, or is he described that way in the text?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. "Character turns white to show he's a good guy" is a classic visual tell :confused:
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Well, I explain in the post afterwards:
Codex said:
Another thing, lore afficionados might ask why Qrech's fur is grey when that's a Grey Seer thing. The reason is that grey fur is cool and aesthetically pleasing. I love grey rats.
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The simple answer as to why he's grey is "I love grey rats". But because I'm me, I'll make a less simple answer.

First, an overview of Skaven fur. Skaven have a fur based caste system. Black furred Skaven are taken away to become part of the warrior caste, consisting of Stormvermin the elite soldiers of the Skaven. They're larger, more muscular, and tend to be more skilled with weapons and have heavier armor. Grey and White furred Skaven are generally chosen to be Grey Seers, but it's not just the fur that denotes their status. They need to be born with horns. They start out as little nubs, but as they get sequestered away for their training and practicing magic, their horns grow in length and prominence. If you don't have a horn you're not a Grey Seer.

The remaining Skaven are a wide range of brown, tawny, beige and many other colors you'd see in rats. These make up the bulk of the Skaven race, consisting primarily of Clanrats and Skavenslaves. It's also said that "the greyness of the fur denotes high rank" and the books mention that there are chieftains with grey fur etc. In DL there are Albino Stormvermin, which are very special types of stormvermin because of how rare they are. The reason they're not Grey Seers? They weren't born with horns.

So the long answer is that Qrech is a chieftain so it's somewhat reasonable to assume that he might have grey fur to denote his status. The short answer is that grey fur is pretty. I imagined it as more dark grey, but artistic liberties and whatnot so I saw no reason to correct it.
Boney said:
Vampire Bloodlines seem as much cultural as they are about blood, and though Luthor was made a Vampire by either Abhorash or Walach, he significantly predates the Order of the Blood Dragon and has no link to them and no significant traits in common with them. You could take Total Warhammer into account and argue that the Depth Guard are Blood Dragon-y, but on the other side of that coin the Vampire Captains really aren't, and the possibly Stromfels-flavoured 'Lore of the Deep' some of them can cast suggests they've developed into something entirely unique.
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This makes a lot of sense. I've always been a bit stumped on the Red Duke of Aquitaine being described as a Blood Dragon when he predated the Order of the Blood Dragon. Sure he might have been turned by Abhorash or something, but he was never part of the Ordo Draconis or the Order they became, and attacked Bretonnia 400 years before they existed. It seems like he'd be culturally distinct despite following Abhorash's teachings and his knightly trappings.
 
Boney said:
His original story is that he was from a human-ish people that lived on the planet before the Old Ones came and he invented necromancy to keep himself alive. Which is impossible for several different reasons, but he predates all of the reasons it's impossible - he's from the late 80s, circa 3rd Edition or so. He should have been phased out of canon when Nagash replaced him as the inventor of Necromancy who is not quite dead and still going bump in the night somewhere, but he was in some very popular early novels and adventures and whatnot so he kept getting little shout-outs throughout the editions. His canonical story became a metajoke: he is a forgotten figure from a past era, except by past era it doesn't mean the world's past, it means the setting's past - he's not from thousands of years ago, he's from several editions ago. His inclusion in the End Times was a continued riff on this: he cannot remember his history because his history got retconned out of existence.
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Ah, Warhammer has its own Power Girl / Psycho Pirate.
 
Mopman43 said:
According to GW, it means "Hammer of the Goblins".

Regardless of any IRL translations.
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That's nice for them. To bad it doesn't matter.

If you want your fantasy weapon to mean something, make sure you don't name it something else.

If I name my dog sparky and claim that name translates to "the one who eats all my sausage" then I'm just straight up wrong.
 
Codex said:
This makes a lot of sense. I've always been a bit stumped on the Red Duke of Aquitaine being described as a Blood Dragon when he predated the Order of the Blood Dragon. Sure he might have been turned by Abhorash or something, but he was never part of the Ordo Draconis or the Order they became, and attacked Bretonnia 400 years before they existed. It seems like he'd be culturally distinct despite following Abhorash's teachings and his knightly trappings.
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Less than you'd think. The Red Duke is effectively culturally identical to the Blood Dragons, because he's still very Bretonnian, and the values of the two match up very well. Like, there'll be little twists, but it's not hard to see how Bretonnian ideals can very easily be matched to those of the Blood Knights.

Burned_Cookie said:
If you want your fantasy weapon to mean something, make sure you don't name it something else.
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The weapon isn't called Heldenhammer. It's an epithet for Sigmar, probably based off Edward I.
 
Boney said:
(bonus points for the Jaded-Blooded and Mahtmasi, btw)
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I think Codex was going off the listed progenitors in Night's Dark Masters.
Codex said:
I know, I'm just using an example from DL.
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So, speaking of, Codex, there's an apocryphal pdf detailing the other two progenitor's bloodlines, you might find it interesting.

It was never published by GW, which makes it's canonicity rather debatable, but it was written by one of the writers of NDM.


Or you might have already found it and I'm entirely wrong.
 
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