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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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deathofrats0808 said:
To be fair, that's a pretty damn good win condition for all of Order.
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*Looks at Waystone Project* guess Order just got tired of waiting around, then. :V

Seriously, though. I do hope Teclis joins us at some point. The High Elves could be really useful, and seeing Mathilde's reaction would be a nice contrast to how she met Kragg.
Boney said:
Kragg isn't all that expressive, but there's one thing that can be read into: the Gyrocarriage that has been so useful for getting people around? That was originally to get Kragg's Anvil of Doom back to Karaz-a-Karak should the whole expedition end in failure. That it's no longer permanently on standby to do that expresses a lot of trust in Belegar's leadership.
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Huh. I kinda figured it was mostly about that speech he gave, where he swore to die before letting Eight Peaks fall.
 
Codex said:
I suppose that "heir of Sigmar" thing is how Valten came about? Seems like the kind of thing they'd do. The secret heir of Sigmar becoming his Avatar in the Empire's time of need.
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As a matter of fact according to the End Times (yeah, yeah, here's the sick bag) Volkmar the Grim, the Grand Theogenist who was a blood descendant of Sigmar.
 
Renegade Crowns has a very interesting system going on that's very different from all the other RPG books I've been reading. Lots of tables and descriptions to let you build your own setting rather than a premade area, which I suppose is the appeal of the Border Princes as opposed to a preestablished Kingdom or Empire. Not so useful for extracting usable information for info posts, but lots of stuff to chew on for worldbuilding your own setting.

If I was confident in my ability to stick to a project I might have run a quest in the WHF setting, but I'm not confident enough in my writing ability or ability to commit to a quest enough to actually make one. Maybe someday I'll be inspired enough to do it. All this reading got me really amped up to make something.
 
Codex said:
Renegade Crowns has a very interesting system going on that's very different from all the other RPG books I've been reading. Lots of tables and descriptions to let you build your own setting rather than a premade area, which I suppose is the appeal of the Border Princes as opposed to a preestablished Kingdom or Empire. Not so useful for extracting usable information for info posts, but lots of stuff to chew on for worldbuilding your own setting.

If I was confident in my ability to stick to a project I might have run a quest in the WHF setting, but I'm not confident enough in my writing ability or ability to commit to a quest enough to actually make one. Maybe someday I'll be inspired enough to do it. All this reading got me really amped up to make something.
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As a pure 'how to RPG book' crowns is prob the best of the Warhammer supplements.

But if you want border lore, lure of the lich is the one you will want to read next.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
As a pure 'how to RPG book' crowns is prob the best of the Warhammer supplements.

But if you want border lore, lure of the lich is the one you will want to read next.
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My current list of books I am about to read, in order:

Renegade Crowns (currently on this), Lure of the Liche Lord, Barony of the Damned, Ashes of Middenheim, Spires of Altdorf, Forges of Nuln, Terror in Talabheim, Karak Azgal, Thousand Thrones, Career Compendium, then I'll get to the 8th Edition supplements (Storm of Magic, Monstrous Arcanum, Tamurkhan, Blood in the Badlands etc.). After that I'll probably do Storm of Chaos. From there I wouldn't know where to go exactly, but I know I'm saving End Times for last.
 
Codex said:
My current list of books I am about to read, in order:

Renegade Crowns (currently on this), Lure of the Liche Lord, Barony of the Damned, Ashes of Middenheim, Spires of Altdorf, Forges of Nuln, Terror in Talabheim, Karak Azgal, Thousand Thrones, Career Compendium, then I'll get to the 8th Edition supplements (Storm of Magic, Monstrous Arcanum, Tamurkhan, Blood in the Badlands etc.). After that I'll probably do Storm of Chaos. From there I wouldn't know where to go exactly, but I know I'm saving End Times for last.
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I would add 'sold down the river' to the list.

It's first Ed, but it's a great book and everyone steals from it when doing Marienburg so it might as well be 2ed (just ignore the sea elves.)

Edit: also, thrones assumes everything in it is still canon unless stated, to it pretty much is.
 
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Actually, hot take: sold down the river is to real starting point of 2ed: 2ed takes a lot of its quo's from it compared to any of the other books of the time.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Actually, hot take: sold down the river is to real starting point of 2ed: 2ed takes a lot of its quo's from it compared to any of the other books of the time.
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Yeah, WFRP 1e went from 1986 to 2004, which means it stretched over five entire editions of the tabletop, 2nd to 6th. The early stuff is really wonky, but some of the later stuff was written well after the setting was nailed down and wouldn't be out of place among the 2e material. In contrast all of 2e was published within four years, which is a big reason it's a lot more internally consistent.
 
Boney said:
IIRC Teclis would have still been in double digits at that point. I haven't fully researched the matter but so far my impression of the Elven life cycle is that it would be heavily classist, and Elven farmers and shopkeeps and whatnot probably have the similar life stages to Dwarves but the nobility are considered to be children for a lot longer. Dwarves have a similar dynamic, in that in any other profession Belegar would be considered of respectable age but he's still seen as young for a King by many.
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I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out, but this isn't unique to long-lived fantasy races. The median age for a real life king is usually older than the median age for most other professions. This is because:

1) Many kings inherit their throne from an adult relative. While this can result in children inheriting, it often results in adults inheriting the throne well after the age at which they would have already started any other job.

2) Many kings that do not inherit their thrones seize one from a starting position as a successful general, politician, or prominent aristocrat. These, in turn, are jobs generally held by experienced adults- a callow youth in one of these positions usually isn't going to have the wherewithal to become king in the first place.

3) The job requirements of "king" involve a lot of familiarity with the community and a lot of political skills most people develop over time. As such, a young person is usually underqualified.

Of course, there are exceptions to this rule all the time, but it would explain a lot.

Likewise, it is probably quite rare for a dwarven king to die before his heir reaches an age greater than or equal to Belegar's. Not unheard of, but rare, and when it does happen it's seen as a shocking and tragic turn of events.
 
This is something I've been keeping in mind for a while now, but the funny thing is, comparatively, Belegar is the same age as Mathilde.

Average lifespan (excluding magic) for a human with Mathilde's healthcare levels would be around 80 years or something like that. Average lifespan (excluding being too angry to die) for a dwarf is around 200 years. As a result, Mathilde being around 30 when meeting Belegar and Belegar being around 90 when meeting her means the two are roughly the same age in comparative terms.
 
Went back to read through an old update to refresh my memory and came across Mathilde's initial foray into planning the Waystone Project, and I'm quite satisfied on our progress so far:
Boney said:
But Tor Lithanel survived by turning to the 'Grey Lords', the organization founded by the original research expedition and bolstered by Archmages exiled from Ulthuan for unsavoury experiments. When a Dwarven Throng destroyed Kor Immarmor and were on their way to do the same to Tor Lithanel, the leaders of the city called upon the Grey Lords, and the Throng never emerged from the forest they were marching through. As a bastion of safety in a sea of angry Dwarves it swelled with Elven refugees from across the Old World, and that immigration formed the basis for their modern society consisting of the aristocratic 'Cityborn' descendants of the pre-War settlers and the 'Forestborn' underclass that live in treetop dwellings. And presumably the Grey Lords still fit into there somewhere, enjoying the protections and privileges that their defence of Tor Lithanel bought them.
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We've managed to figure out the basics of Laurelorn, the Eonir and the interactions between the Forestborn and Cityborn at this point. While there's still quite a bit left to figure out and we have yet to get a House or Ward on our side, we have the support of a Grey Lord on our side and the Queen seems to be inclined to support us at the moment. That's a good start.
Boney said:
The second piece of the puzzle are the Dwarves, who need no introduction. They're quite likely to be difficult as the only ones likely to have relevant information are the Runelords, who have a religious obligation to be secretive about runelore. What you're hoping is that they don't consider the Waystones as falling under their aegis, either due to the involvement of the Elves in their original creation or because their knowledge of how to create them is lost, and therefore they'd be able to be part of a joint investigation into them. You also have hopes that they might still have in storage somewhere items siezed during the War of Vengeance. Dwarves don't loot, but being very thorough about taking trophies isn't looting, nor is the seizing of reimbursements.
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Things went much better on this end than I expected tbh. We had to make a few sacrifices, but at least to me they weren't too expensive. Now we have the support of possibly the best Runelord we could get (I say this because the other options lack certain... desirable qualities). He's also perfectly willing to do just as Mathilde needs; interpreting the "Runesmith Secrets" thing in a favorable light towards her. I actually think Thorek alone is enough Dwarven support, he's that significant.
Boney said:
Last, but hopefully not least, are the possible human contributions to the project. Teclis did not reveal much of the workings of the Waystones to the Colleges, but what he did reveal lays a foundation, and Teclis is not the only source of mystical secrets in the world. You know from Panoramia that the Jade Order knows more of their workings than what Teclis said, and you wouldn't be surprised if any of the others knew more than they let on, including your own. Each of them come from mystical lineages, some very ancient indeed, and though the Waystones themselves are of Elven manufacture, many are supported by Henge networks of apparently human make. Someone had to have made them, and their descendants may still exist among the Colleges or the Cults or both. And there's always the many libraries of the Old World and beyond, and the many arms you'd have to twist to get access to the most interesting.
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We haven't gotten much support on the human side aside from our three colleagues, but at least we've narrowed down the eight orders into two, which is much more managable.

After finishing Realm of the Ice Queen, I'm actually much more determined to get the Ice Witches on our side. The Ice and Hag Witches are very knowledgable about spirits and the leylines of energy, and many of them outright protect the waystones and consider them sacred because it's the source of their power. I'm not sure if Mathilde knows that much though, and unfortunately we lack leverage. They helped us, we helped them, the debt is payed. I suppose we can attempt to use Liljiana as a contact?

Maybe I've misjudged how much Liljiana actually likes Mathilde, but my impression is that Mathilde hasn't really managed to worm her way into the witch's good graces. She never really struck me as all that friendly. Maybe I'm wrong and we can actually make promises that can convince the Vedma to help us out though.
 
Codex said:
Maybe I've misjudged how much Liljiana actually likes Mathilde, but my impression is that Mathilde hasn't really managed to worm her way into the witch's good graces. She never really struck me as all that friendly. Maybe I'm wrong and we can actually make promises that can convince the Vedma to help us out though.
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At the very least, we've proved ourselves a competent ally, and that holds some weight. Also, when our letter to Boris got lost in the Kislev bureaucracy, it was the Ice Witches that forced the meeting to happen.

Boney said:
Getting in touch with Kislev seemed like it would be surprisingly easy: Kazrik spoke to Karak Kadrin who spoke directly to Kislev, since they've been working closely with them to try to reintegrate the newly-returned Karak Vlag. But after enough time had elapsed for you to get miffed, you sent word directly to the Ice Witches through Lord Magister Krammovitch's unofficial channels to see what was going on, and only then did you get a response through the official Dwarven ones.
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I suspect the Ice Witches would be happy to help, although they would probably need some concession for operating outside of Kislev and I don't know what they would want.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
At the very least, we've proved ourselves a competent ally, and that holds some weight. Also, when our letter to Boris got lost in the Kislev bureaucracy, it was the Ice Witches that forced the meeting to happen.



I suspect the Ice Witches would be happy to help, although they would probably need some concession for operating outside of Kislev and I don't know what they would want.
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Ice Witches want to get Boris on the throne as Tzar and have him more closely aligned with them by marrying one of them to him.

I can think of a few ways we can help with those goals, but most are pretty... severe. I'm not sure the Ice Witches would the type to employ Mathilde's skills in such a manner, but I wouldn't say it's out of the question.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I'm sure that's not the only thing they want, and going by canon that happens anyway, and I don't think we've butterflied that away yet, so we shouldn't have to intervene in that.
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Mathilde had absolutely no effect on the time of Karl Franz' birth, but in DL his birth was delayed which resulted in him dying unborn. Boney can just butterfly things without Mathilde being involved. Certainly, Mathilde's actions haven't affected Dragomas' results in the Patriarch Duels. Thyruss Gormann should be Supreme Patriarch right now if Boney was following canon, but he left things up to dice rolls so even without Mathilde involved, Dragomas butterflied things.

In fact, huge butterflies occured the instant Dragomas was generated as a character, and it's not like Mathilde had any influence on his character generation. Sometimes, things can change without Mathilde's involvement. She's not the only one creating ripples in the timeline.

In canon, Vladimir Bokha died to goblins in a random raid in 2492 IC, but there is no guarantee the same will happen. There's also no guarantee Boris marries an Ice Witch and Katarin is born. Certainly the Ice Witches don't know that Vlad "will die soon", and even if they did they might want to speed it up.

I'm not saying that it's guaranteed that they would ask Mathilde to "speed the process up", I'm just saying that it's not outside the realm of possibility. It's also one of the things that would most greatly boost their influence from what we currently know.
 
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Codex said:
The majority of the info I know about Sigmar was from non-novel stuff, so the stuff about him not having any heirs gave me the headcanon that he was aromantic asexual. A bit of a bummer that it turns out the novels pop that headcanon bubble, but oh well.
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I always thought it be interesting, if he was like, the chaddest gay man around. Just pure homosexuality and testosterone in equal amounts.
 
Droman said:
I always thought it be interesting, if he was like, the chaddest gay man around. Just pure homosexuality and testosterone in equal amounts.
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I'm generally in favor of having more masculine gay men because fiction tends to associate liking men with femininity and that irritates me, but on the other hand, Sigmar looks like he'd shove me in a locker, so I'm conflicted on the topic.
 
Codex said:
I'm generally in favor of having more masculine gay men because fiction tends to associate liking men with femininity and that irritates me, but on the other hand, Sigmar looks like he'd shove me in a locker, so I'm conflicted on the topic.
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See, if I put him in a high school concept, I feel like he's more like the fictionalized version of Ronnie Bass in Remember the Titans. Long blond hair and cool as a cucumber. Albeit much more jacked up.
 
Codex said:
Mathilde had absolutely no effect on the time of Karl Franz' birth, but in DL his birth was delayed which resulted in him dying unborn. Boney can just butterfly things without Mathilde being involved. Certainly, Mathilde's actions haven't affected Dragomas' results in the Patriarch Duels. Thyruss Gormann should be Supreme Patriarch right now if Boney was following canon, but he left things up to dice rolls so even without Mathilde involved, Dragomas butterflied things.

In fact, huge butterflies occured the instant Dragomas was generated as a character, and it's not like Mathilde had any influence on his character generation. Sometimes, things can change without Mathilde's involvement. She's not the only one creating ripples in the timeline.

In canon, Vladimir Bokha died to goblins in a random raid in 2492 IC, but there is no guarantee the same will happen. There's also no guarantee Boris marries an Ice Witch and Katarin is born. Certainly the Ice Witches don't know that Vlad "will die soon", and even if they did they might want to speed it up.

I'm not saying that it's guaranteed that they would ask Mathilde to "speed the process up", I'm just saying that it's not outside the realm of possibility. It's also one of the things that would most greatly boost their influence from what we currently know.
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I literately can't see any value to Boney significantly changing canon in this way, as it means he has to do more worldbuilding for a region we're barely interacting with. Similarly, I see no reason why the Ice Witches would want to use an outsider completely detached from Kislevian politics to arrange a marriage between two internal factions that actually like each other anyway.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I literately can't see any value to Boney significantly changing canon in this way, as it means he has to do more worldbuilding for a region we're barely interacting with. Similarly, I see no reason why the Ice Witches would want to use an outsider completely detached from Kislevian politics to arrange a marriage between two internal factions that actually like each other anyway.
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We've barely ever interacted with Bretonnia, much less than even Kislev. Yet Boney changed canon independently of Mathilde's actions by having the Badlands Errantry Wars end early, since in canon they end in the mid 2480's but in DL they ended earlier. The Skaven had a third civil war that never happened in Canon without Mathilde ever being involved in their affairs. We only learned of it after we came across the Skaven for the first time.

Boney just changes stuff sometimes. A benefit of his style is that he can make broad changes and he doesn't even need to develop the consequences unless it would affect us and our sphere of influence, and he can adapt to the circumstances as needed instead of fleshing everything out.

I'm also not implying Mathilde would in any way be involved in the marriage. I'm talking about ganking Vladimir. The Ice Witches can maintain plausible deniability if Mathilde did it, much less so if one of their agents did it.
 
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