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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ShyPerson said:
I don't count something as sourced if "citation needed" is placed on the page. As a researcher I don't trust umgak referances.
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That's there because the citations are just books, rather than pages. And there's no footnote references within the article itself.

Meanwhile, if you'd prefer to be sure that the sign exists, here:
The sign reads: "Ghal Maraz. Once gifted to Sigmar by High King Kurgan Ironbeard. I don't know what the foolish manling Emperor believes to be in his treasury. Did he really think we'd part with such a weapon forever?"

Of course, this is of dubious canonicity at best, because it's almost certainly just an excuse for them to have Ghal Maraz hanging up on the wall.
 
Codex said:
I'm not an expert on the topic of leadership over an entire country and what skills are necessary to maintain order. It seems excessive to me that she would employ torture and death to individuals who enforce the law without her authority (example being adventurers killing bandits for stealing), but I suppose I understand the point? She can't have people undermining her authority.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
this is absolutely based on IRL political issues of the past. (part of why Realm of the Ice Queen is such a good RPG book, it 'Warhammer's' real period politics)

one of the biggest issues for kings and queens and governments until surprising modern times was getting people, epesalily the powerful and rural, to respect your laws and court systems instead of taking it into their own hands or using local traditions. and they would come down hard when even given the chance to show 'I make the rules, not you.'
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This is a messy area with a lot of factors, but one of the big reasons for this again is the matter of message time and travel time in a pre-railroad, pre-telegraph era.

If it takes one week to send a message from outer Kislev to the capital, and one week to get a reply, that's a massive incentive towards decentralizing and devolving power to local communities, for all the decisions that can't wait two weeks, and a lot of decisions that can wait two weeks but people really don't want to. And "two weeks" is much more of a concern in an era of shorter, riskier lives. The edges of Kislev can be thought of as partway to being an overseas colony in terms of difficulty administering them from the capital.

And sometimes people tried to wait but didn't get a message after two weeks because the messenger was delayed, did their own local decision, and then got a reply on day 16 saying to take a course of action that was now impossible, and they had to wait another two weeks (+further messenger delays, +waiting for the right person in the capital to be available, +other trouble) to ask what should now be done instead, and so on.

At which point perhaps the Tzarina decides she has to come herself, and the Tzarina with her court and her bodyguards and her pack train travel slower than a messenger changing horses, and soon the months start racking up. So the Tzarina has to be very clear and forceful about what her will is, if she doesn't want to be constantly riding back and forth across Kislev to resolve disputes, and stomp on local power centres, and override old habits and traditions, and so on.

Under these conditions, trying to centralize power and standardize law and make everywhere actually subject to Katarin, rather than subject to a local noble who will hopefully follow Katarin's instructions in a general sense, is a very difficult task which requires a great deal of enforcement. Katarin is being brutal partly because she's fighting not just people undermining her authority, but a power gradient of sorts where power tends to leak away from her.
 
I've always preferred to think of Ghal Maraz as much smaller of a hammer than it's usually depicted. I understand the desire to depict the hammer as giant and two handed, but the runes on the hammer mean that even if it weighed like two pounds it would be enough to smash someone's head in regardless of what their head was made of or covered by. Weight and leverage aren't necessary with such a runic weapon.

Yeah I understand the benefits of reach and all that, but the idea of being able to wield Ghal Maraz and a shield appeals to me more than the emperor swinging around a giant two handed hammer in slow, predictable swings when the hammer doesn't need any wind up to turn someone into mincemeat.
 
Codex said:
I've always preferred to think of Ghal Maraz as much smaller of a hammer than it's usually depicted. I understand the desire to depict the hammer as giant and two handed, but the runes on the hammer mean that even if it weighed like two pounds it would be enough to smash someone's head in regardless of what their head was made of or covered by. Weight and leverage aren't necessary with such a runic weapon.

Yeah I understand the benefits of reach and all that, but the idea of being able to wield Ghal Maraz and a shield appeals to me more than the emperor swinging around a giant two handed hammer in slow, predictable swings when the hammer doesn't need any wind up to turn someone into mincemeat.
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It would also be closer to real life; real warhammers weren't these massive things with huge heads, they were really quite small.

 
Exmorri said:
This is a messy area with a lot of factors, but one of the big reasons for this again is the matter of message time and travel time in a pre-railroad, pre-telegraph era.

If it takes one week to send a message from outer Kislev to the capital, and one week to get a reply, that's a massive incentive towards decentralizing and devolving power to local communities, for all the decisions that can't wait two weeks, and a lot of decisions that can wait two weeks but people really don't want to. And "two weeks" is much more of a concern in an era of shorter, riskier lives. The edges of Kislev can be thought of as partway to being an overseas colony in terms of difficulty administering them from the capital.

And sometimes people tried to wait but didn't get a message after two weeks because the messenger was delayed, did their own local decision, and then got a reply on day 16 saying to take a course of action that was now impossible, and they had to wait another two weeks (+further messenger delays, +waiting for the right person in the capital to be available, +other trouble) to ask what should now be done instead, and so on.

At which point perhaps the Tzarina decides she has to come herself, and the Tzarina with her court and her bodyguards and her pack train travel slower than a messenger changing horses, and soon the months start racking up. So the Tzarina has to be very clear and forceful about what her will is, if she doesn't want to be constantly riding back and forth across Kislev to resolve disputes, and stomp on local power centres, and override old habits and traditions, and so on.

Under these conditions, trying to centralize power and standardize law and make everywhere actually subject to Katarin, rather than subject to a local noble who will hopefully follow Katarin's instructions in a general sense, is a very difficult task which requires a great deal of enforcement. Katarin is being brutal partly because she's fighting not just people undermining her authority, but a power gradient of sorts where power tends to leak away from her.
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It doesn't have to be 2 weeks , even under that system. The point isn't that every decision has to go through the Tsarina, it's that the authority must come from her.; that only her deputies can enforce the law, and that they only can because she empowers them to do it. The problem isn't that someone was punished for robbery without her express approval - there's no way she has time for that - it's that allowing non state actors like adventurers to do it undermines the authority of the state.
 
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Negaverse Skaven
  • Apocrypha
    • I confess this did not let me rest, I apologize if I got a little lost. I would consider putting this somewhere else but without the threads positive feedback or ideas in it it would not have reached my mind at all

    Special thanks go to @BeepSmile for additional feedback.

    Intro to the Honorable Skaven AU.

    Excerpt from the Records Of The Third Diet Of Skavenblessed, translated into Reikspiel
    The year 2390 Of The Glorius Empire Of Sigmar.


    The Oath-Code(s) of the Gentlerats.

    The highest-ranking members of our outstanding society are all Right Honorable Gentlerats. They must-shall henceforth follow all all of these edicts.

    Claw leaders, Moulders, Monks, and others of such middling rank are hereafter Honorable Gentlerats and need only follow the first six(6) to maintain standing.

    Average Clanrat of the Grand Clans(Gentlerat)is only expected to follow first three but are able to petition your local superior to take take upon further oaths.







    1. The Word of a pious pious Skaven is his bond. is made to our Unifier below as much as to each other. To deliberately mislead through word to any who keep to the oaths is to be farthest from the great rat's protections.

    2. Those who observe not of hospitality know not The Great Horned Unifier, those who deny his servants their strengths and are therefore to be marked and shunned for a full year by all.

    3. A Gentlerats hospitality as a host is to share his resources equally with those of his standing and superiors and near equally with his lessers. Higher-ranked rat is always host.

    4. To Knowingly Kill Or Maim a prisoner of high rank is to be weak of will, devoid of cunning and willing to invite woe upon Skavendom. Honorable, Gentle, and higherats are obligated to remove the tail of the oathbreaker. Then to shave-shave them bare least they too incur the Horned Rats wrath.

    5. An Honorable Gentleskaven vows to put the interest of greater Skavendom above his own, even if such means working-working with ununified surface-dwelling no-furs.

    6. To withhold knowledge of one's oaths from their peers-allies, unless in unambiguous protection of Skavendom is unacceptable.

    7. A Right Honorable who kills or maims Breeder shall be exiled. Until they can bring back the equivalent in skulls for their largest litter. An Honorable needs to return twice as many a Right Honorable and a Gentlerat or below is required to be allowed five(5) hours to plea to his superiors for a swift death and to suggest method.

    9. Grey Seers hold one(1)extra seat. This seat on the council to be reserved for tie-breaking and the most serious of scenarios whence Blessed Rodentlords are needed to maintain cohesion in the direst of circumstances.

    10. Members of the Council of Thirteen are those chosen by divine right to rule Skavendom and direct it's prosperity, a Gentlerat will follow all their direct commands lest they conflict with his other-other oaths.

    11. Council members may only be demoted or removed upon death or if found in dereliction of their sacred duties by a two-thirds majority vote of the council or through the breaking of an oath before an Honorable Gentelrat who has thus been entitled the option *debating with them before the council**.

    12. In Extremis to Skavendom one(1) oath of any Honorable Gentlerat or below is subject to release by a Greyseer of Right Honorable rank. Or Approval by the Council of Thirteen(13).

    13. All oaths subject to suspension per review of an individual rat's confession to the Great Horned Unifier and affirmative response from the Great Horned Unifier.

    Notes:
    *#Sanctified debates presently require only a minimum of four worded replies, pugilism is considered a valid reply after such a point
    **# Our ambassador in Skavenblessed reported that this dereliction has apparently shamefully occurred, more than twice, but oddly failed to produce any estimate beyond this appearing extremely nervous when asked about the subject.

    (Yes, this whole thing I think still indeed ripe for abuse.)

    (I lost about half the document to a computer crash. Therefore Part 2 will need to be remade. It will be about the Honorable Gentlerat, Qretch of Moulder. The Revokable Privileges of Gentlerats, and the Sacred Rights Of All Skavendom)

    EDIT: Added the Fith Oath, realized these dudes probably grudgingly respect the dwarves in this imagining and hence will work that into part 2.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • 16 characters said:
    I confess this did not let me rest, I apologize if I got a little lost. I would consider putting this somewhere else but without the threads positive feedback or ideas in it it would not have reached my mind at all

    Special thanks go to BeepSmile for additional feedback.

    Intro to the Honorable Skaven AU.

    Excerpt from the Records Of The Third Diet Of Skavenblessed, translated into Reikspiel
    The year 2390 Of The Glorius Empire Of Sigmar.


    The Oath-Code(s) of the Gentlerats.

    The highest-ranking members of our outstanding society are all Right Honorable Gentlerats. They must-shall henceforth follow all all of these edicts.

    Claw leaders, Moulders, Monks, and others of such middling rank are hereafter Honorable Gentlerats and need only follow the first six(6) to maintain standing.

    Average Clanrat of the Grand Clans(Gentlerat)is only expected to follow first three but are able to petition your local superior to take take upon further oaths.







    1. The Word of a pious pious Skaven is his bond. is made to our Unifier below as much as to each other. To deliberately mislead through word to any who keep to the oaths is to be farthest from the great rat's protections.

    2. Those who observe not of hospitality know not The Great Horned Unifier, those who deny his servants their strengths and are therefore to be marked and shunned for a full year by all.

    3. A Gentlerats hospitality as a host is to share his resources equally with those of his standing and superiors and near equally with his lessers. Higher-ranked rat is always host.

    4. To Knowingly Kill Or Maim a prisoner of high rank is to be weak of will, devoid of cunning and willing to invite woe upon Skavendom. Honorable, Gentle, and higherats are obligated to remove the tail of the oathbreaker. Then to shave-shave them bare least they too incur the Horned Rats wrath.

    6. To withhold knowledge of one's oaths from their peers-allies, unless in unambiguous protection of Skavendom is unacceptable.

    7. A Right Honorable who kills or maims Breeder shall be exiled. Until they can bring back the equivalent in skulls for their largest litter. An Honorable needs to return twice as many a Right Honorable and a Gentlerat or below is required to be allowed five(5) hours to plea to his superiors for a swift death and to suggest method.

    9. Grey Seers hold one(1)extra seat. This seat on the council to be reserved for tie-breaking and the most serious of scenarios whence Blessed Rodentlords are needed to maintain cohesion in the direst of circumstances.

    10. Members of the Council of Thirteen are those chosen by divine right to rule Skavendom and direct it's prosperity, a Gentlerat will follow all their direct commands lest they conflict with his other-other oaths.

    11. Council members may only be demoted or removed upon death or if found in dereliction of their sacred duties by a two-thirds majority vote of the council or through the breaking of an oath before an Honorable Gentelrat who has thus been entitled the option *debating with them before the council**.

    12. In Extremis to Skavendom one(1) oath of any Honorable Gentlerat or below is subject to release by a Greyseer of Right Honorable rank. Or Approval by the Council of Thirteen(13).

    13. All oaths subject to suspension per review of an individual rat's confession to the Great Horned Unifier and affirmative response from the Great Horned Unifier.

    Notes:
    *#Sanctified debates presently require only a minimum of four worded replies, pugilism is considered a valid reply after such a point
    **# Our ambassador in Skavenblessed reported that this dereliction has apparently shamefully occurred, more than twice, but oddly failed to produce any estimate beyond this appearing extremely nervous when asked about the subject.

    (Yes, this whole thing I think still indeed ripe for abuse.)

    (I lost about half the document to a computer crash. Therefore Part 2 will need to be remade. It will be about the Honorable Gentlerat, Qretch of Moulder. The Revokable Privileges of Gentlerats, and the Sacred Rights Of All Skavendom)
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    I imagine them as victorian steampunk british gentlemen. I approve of this.

    You're missing oath 5.
     
    BeepSmile said:
    Awww, that's sweet. Dhar just wants to be friends with people.

    We should give it a hug.
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    Not just a hug.

    I've looked into it for a bit and based on my research we should give it, lemme just double check the numbers here, about 145 hugs as of the most recent survey.

    I know this sounds like a large number, but if we all pool our efforts together we should be able to reach it in no problem.
     
    Wait what? I did indeed miss oath 5, I can't very well change it to 12 oaths, 12 oaths would be giving the horned rat short shrift without violating my self-imposed challenge. Ugh, I think this comes with having stared at a thing for two many hours where the words.

    Ah ha here we go and edited.
    Thank you very much Burn Note!

    EDIT: I find the source of this Dhar hugging survey to be very suspect.
     
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    Codex said:
    I've always preferred to think of Ghal Maraz as much smaller of a hammer than it's usually depicted. I understand the desire to depict the hammer as giant and two handed, but the runes on the hammer mean that even if it weighed like two pounds it would be enough to smash someone's head in regardless of what their head was made of or covered by. Weight and leverage aren't necessary with such a runic weapon.

    Yeah I understand the benefits of reach and all that, but the idea of being able to wield Ghal Maraz and a shield appeals to me more than the emperor swinging around a giant two handed hammer in slow, predictable swings when the hammer doesn't need any wind up to turn someone into mincemeat.
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    ScottishMongol said:
    It would also be closer to real life; real warhammers weren't these massive things with huge heads, they were really quite small.

    -snip-
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    I have to say I love real warhammers. It's like a sleek and murderous golf club! ^_^

    I approve of this headcanon immensely.
     
    to be fair to Ghal Maraz, its a Dwarf weapon that was given to humans, not a human weapon made by dwarfs like mathys sword or the runefangs.

    Dwarfs are strong enough to handle it being chunky.
     
    Ghal Maraz was a masterpiece made by someone to whom weight was no object (Smednir) and used by other people to whom weight was no object (like Sigmar) in order smash things which really demanded every single ounce of force available so as to better smash (Greater Daemons, Everchosen, Nagash, etc).

    So, it is not a hammer designed for a being with humanlike physics-compliant arms to hit enemies with humanlike, physics-compliant bodies with. It is a hammer made for incarnate gods to hit giant monsters and other things in the same weight class with.
     
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    It looks like my main intended point was lost, so I will clearify.

    Assuming Ghal Maraz stays in the Empire after Sigmar left, what happens to it during the Era of Three Emperors?
     
    ShyPerson said:
    It looks like my main intended point was lost, so I will clearify.

    Assuming Ghal Maraz stays in the Empire after Sigmar left, what happens to it during the Era of Three Emperors?
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    Fairly sure it would've been with the southern Emperor, given that they were not only the one elected just as the split occurred, but also had the support of the Cult of Sigmar. Odds are, it would have remained in the hands of the southern Emperors, until the Grand Theogonist refused to crown Magritta of Marienburg as Empress despite being elected in IC 1979. From then on to the Great War and Magnus, I'd give decent odds to it being kept under lock and key by the Cult of Sigmar, especially given how several Grand Theogonists crowned themselves as an Emperor during those centuries.
     
    I like Ghal Maraz the way it is, if only to remind certain people that this is a fantasy setting and not, in fact, our world but some people have pointy ears. That said I have always tended to give everybody not the Empire smaller warhammers.
     
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    I can understand the "this is fantasy setting" thing, but maybe this is just my personal opinion and others don't agree with me. But the real reason I dislike Ghal Maraz' apparent design is this:

    I think giant two handed hammers with ridiculously large heads are ugly and the way they're used aesthetically is not pleasing at all. Maybe it worked for Sigmar, but the Emperors aren't superhuman brutes who can swing that ugly as hell hammer around very well. Even if you're superhuman, the weight imbalance of that huge head at the end of that long shaft means that the center of balance on the weapon is incredibly wonky unless the hammerhead is hollow.

    I'm trying to imagine someone using Ghal Maraz, and I can't help but think their movements must be clumsy and amateurish as hell even if they have superhuman strength. The design just doesn't lend itself to quick and efficient movements.

    At least with a greatsword, the weight is mostly evenly distributed. With a hammer, the weight is concentrated at the head. The longer your hammer is and the heavier the head is the more out of balance the hammer becomes, making it super unwieldy.
     
    Codex said:
    I can understand the "this is fantasy setting" thing, but maybe this is just my personal opinion and others don't agree with me. But the real reason I dislike Ghal Maraz' apparent design is this:

    I think giant two handed hammers with ridiculously large heads are ugly and the way they're used aesthetically is not pleasing at all. Maybe it worked for Sigmar, but the Emperors aren't superhuman brutes who can swing that ugly as hell hammer around very well. Even if you're superhuman, the weight imbalance of that huge head at the end of that long shaft means that the center of balance on the weapon is incredibly wonky unless the hammerhead is hollow.

    I'm trying to imagine someone using Ghal Maraz, and I can't help but think their movements must be clumsy and amateurish as hell even if they have superhuman strength. The design just doesn't lend itself to quick and efficient movements.

    At least with a greatsword, the weight is mostly evenly distributed. With a hammer, the weight is concentrated at the head. The longer your hammer is and the heavier the head is the more out of balance the hammer becomes, making it super unwieldy.
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    Unironically:

    Manteling Sigmar in such a way by copying his weapon allows an Imperial to wield it with sufficient grace and speed as a weapon. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
     
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