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Ultimately its's about winning and losing, and if we give Thorek both concessions, he'll most likely win in both conflicts. He gets what he wants, we get what we need, as well as a firm powerful ally whose star is ascending. Giving him both concessions seems to be the optimal way forward.
 
I'm not sure that 'yellow bearded' was aspersions of cowardice? Personally I thought it was referring to a hoarding mentality.


For what it's worth, K8P actually had quite a bit of indirect Runesmith support- Clan Angrund being dressed to the nines in runic gear was a pretty important lynchpin in a number of battles.
It is true, but one of the Runelords who assisted us, Thorek himself, provided a good number of that gear. Some of that gear might have also been ancestral. I will concede that a portion definitely came from the Runesmiths of Karaz A Karak, but I don't think Thorek's plans are going to starve the Karaz Ankor of Runesmiths to the degree that they can't outfit a group of 1k dwarfs anymore.
 
I say we go for Johann and Both. Johann because it seems awesome.

And Both because Thorek truly buying into it is just too good to pass up.

I will say that he could try to put pressure on the Engineering guilds to not be all newfangled and shit, using all the influence the reforms would give him. But to be entirely honest, if his method is to make it so instead of handguns dwarves had just as ready access to crossbows that shoot lightning bolts... Well, I'm not too bothered by that.

Engineering will still happen, the Holds which do most of it are liable to be the least affected anyway. And if he can provide just as good a solution to what's currently on offer, I don't see reason to stop him.

He will have to get a long way into his reformation to be able to offer a competitive solution to pure Engineering. And without that, it'd be mighty hard to convince dwarves to use something less effective, given their overall situation.
 
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I'm not sure that 'yellow bearded' was aspersions of cowardice? Personally I thought it was referring to a hoarding mentality.
Right, in support of this:

He was presumably speaking Khazalid, and the Khazalid word for yellow is Gorl.

Gorl - Gold that is especially soft and yellow; the colour yellow.

Gorl is also the root of another word, Gorlm.
Gorlm - Old gold, passed down through many generations and left undisturbed in guarded treasure vaults.
In other words, hoarded gold, rather than spent gold.
 
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I'm not sure that 'yellow bearded' was aspersions of cowardice? Personally I thought it was referring to a hoarding mentality.
Calling someone 'yellow' is another way of calling them a coward, probably coming from the implication that they've pissed themselves in fear so often that they've turned that colour.
 
I don't remember the Middle Mountains having any factions in them in TW, you might be thinking of Massif Orcal in Bretonnia?

But yes, in general, the Middle Mountains are full of gribblies these days. It's where Gorthor the Beastlord came from, for one.
Double checking, I was actually thinking of the Leaf-Cutterz Tribe northwest of Middenland. The Middle mountains are just part of Hochland, you're correct. Still, probably mostly full of some sort of gribblies or other.
 
Right, in support of this:

He was presumably speaking Khazalid, and the Khazalid word for yellow is Gorl.



Gorl is also the root of another word, Gorlm.

In other words, horded gold, rather than spent gold.
That's not very supportive words either. Left undisturbed in guarded treasure vaults, hoarded through the ages is just as bad a connotation. You might argue that Kragg was like that if he wasn't actively working to better the Karaz Ankor and fighting for its holds right now, but he is.
 
@BoneyM, if we give the arm to a random volunteer, can we safely assume we will pick a volunteer who can make use of its probable capabilities? A knight, a witch finder, a priest, a wizard, someone like that? It'd be both a risk and a waste to give it to a farmer.

Second,

"And your words would give me the authority to do so. Tear it apart and melt it down, that it may be reforged anew. Since we last spoke I have been travelling the Karaz Ankor, and everywhere I look I see so-called Runelords with beards grown yellow instead of white, squatting atop their secrets as jealously and uselessly as a Dragon atop a hoard. They fail the Karaz Ankor twice over, for in the absence of Thungni, Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation as He tries to do alone what should be the work of two. I will correct this in time, but could do so in a more efficient and lasting manner with your testimony as a banner."

Thorek. Buddy. I'd support that for free.
 
That's not very supportive words either. Left undisturbed in guarded treasure vaults, hoarded through the ages is just as bad a connotation. You might argue that Kragg was like that if he wasn't actively working to better the Karaz Ankor and fighting for its holds right now, but he is.
Hoarded secrets, not necessarily that they're hoarding themselves.

Calling someone 'yellow' is another way of calling them a coward, probably coming from the implication that they've pissed themselves in fear so often that they've turned that colour.
I'm aware of the connotation, I disagree that that's what Thorek meant.
 
@BoneyM, if we give the arm to a random volunteer, can we safely assume we will pick a volunteer who can make use of its probable capabilities? A knight, a witch finder, a priest, a wizard, someone like that? It'd be both a risk and a waste to give it to a farmer.

If Mathilde ends up having to choose between a trusted hero of the Empire and a random nobody, you can rest assured she will not pick the random nobody.
 
You summon a Shadowchisel, frown at it, then dismiss it. Better not to introduce unnecessary magic. "Do you have a blade?"

He pats his robes. "Ritual or regular?"
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the very casual way in which Horstmann just straight up says he's got a ritual blade. I assume people just filed it under "Light Order" things and didn't consider "OH GOD HORSTMANN PERFROMS RITUAL SACRIFICE". I think we just got used to Boney casually teasing us with Horstmann. Or maybe I'm weird and him carrying a ritual knife is perfectly normal. :V
He looks down at the arm in alarm, then relaxes and shakes his head. "No, it would have their runes on it if it was theirs, and would probably be part stone as well. Wouldn't that be a way to endear ourselves to our hosts, bringing a Tomb King's army upon them." He tucks his dagger away.
Ahah. The Light Order are familiar with the Tomb Kings. Mathilde's suspicions about their pyramid being done not just for the aesthetic might be true....

Or maybe he was just instructed on Tomb King artifacts so he wouldn't accidentally come across one and not throw it across the continent. The Light Order don't have convient memory packets to unlock at a crucial moment.
"And your words would give me the authority to do so. Tear it apart and melt it down, that it may be reforged anew. Since we last spoke I have been travelling the Karaz Ankor, and everywhere I look I see so-called Runelords with beards grown yellow instead of white, squatting atop their secrets as jealously and uselessly as a Dragon atop a hoard. They fail the Karaz Ankor twice over, for in the absence of Thungni, Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation as He tries to do alone what should be the work of two. I will correct this in time, but could do so in a more efficient and lasting manner with your testimony as a banner."
The way Thorek says "hoarding their secrets as jealously and uselessly as a dragon atop a hoard" doesn't seem to indicate to me that his issue is specifically in keeping secrets. It's the fact that they do so "uselessly". They're not putting those secrets to good use.

Yes Thorek is very mad at Kragg for dunking on him, but I firmly believe that Thorek respects Kragg greatly. Kragg does hoard secrets, but he doesn't just languish in greed and comfort and never work to better the Karaz Ankor, he works for it. Everything he learned, Kragg earned, and he's put that information to use. Even when Kragg "copied" Thorek's rune, he just saw it and made a better version. As galling and infuriating as that might be, Thorek at least recognises that Kragg is NOT one of these people. Or at least that's my belief.

I'm of the firm belief that Thorek is specifically talking about people who do not "better" the Karaz Ankor, and not just people who hoard secrets. It's fine to hoard them if you're putting them to good use.
 
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the very casual way in which Horstmann just straight up says he's got a ritual blade. I assume people just filed it under "Light Order" things and didn't consider "OH GOD HORSTMANN PERFROMS RITUAL SACRIFICE". I think we just got used to Boney casually teasing us with Horstmann. Or maybe I'm weird and him carrying a ritual knife is perfectly normal. :V
My brain glossed over it as ritual=magic=hysh equivalent of shadowchisel, but after giving it actual thought that probably wouldn't be what he meant given what ritual magic is in this magic system.
 
...Oh fuck. On the one hand, it may be my ignorance speaking, but i thought we kinda wanted Thorek to go ripping apart the guild? Or maybe i'm misremembering. The Middenheim thing could be a problem, but I'm not really sure how much.
Dwarf psychology tells me that if the Middle Mountain dwarves turned away a throng it was because of some oath or shame, and similarly, that dwarves don't abandon their mountains without being forced out.
So I've gotta wonder what forced them out in Divided Loyalties-verse.

It could be as innocent as an oath of friendship to some elves, followed by dramatic diplomatic failure stemming from it, followed by greenskin or Skaven infestation. Or it could be something worse.


Also I remain convinced that Borek went in to Karag Dum because he thought it'd somehow be less shameful to be seen as joining a group that had defected to chaos, rather than exposing whatever the truth around Cor Dum was.
 
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned the very casual way in which Horstmann just straight up says he's got a ritual blade. I assume people just filed it under "Light Order" things and didn't consider "OH GOD HORSTMANN PERFROMS RITUAL SACRIFICE". I think we just got used to Boney casually teasing us with Horstmann. Or maybe I'm weird and him carrying a ritual knife is perfectly normal. :V

Ritual knives have a lot of use in the sort of occult traditions and secret societies I'm basing a lot of the Colleges on, and only a few of them involve a person being stabbed.
 
Ok, I'm in favor of both. I think this is a case of picking a side and making sure it is strong. In middenheim, this is the Graf and the al-ulric, who we have been working in the interests for a while. I think that they will ask less than they could because we have been an ally.

As far as runesmiths, I see a few angles. First, I want to apply leverage where I can to get Vlag brought in from the cold, and the way that they were able to survive in the warp due to runes becoming common supports Thorek's argument. Second, I want the upheaval of dwarven society that we've caused thus far- to the point of the high King deciding that expansion rather than grudges were his priority- to continue. I think change to optimism and growth are going to be best served by smashing centers of conservativism, which the runesmith guild definitely qualifies as. And finally, I think that increasing the integration of human wizards into dwarven military doctrine might be helped by forcing the runesmiths into self-involvement for a period.

So I'm in favor of doubling down on the politics here, and trying to influence what happens to the Karaz Ankor in the aftermath of our bombshells.
 
@Boney

Mathilde probably has enough of a read on dwarf culture to answer this: Is "yellow" in the context of "yellow-bearded" a reference to cowardice, as it is in English, or does it have different connotations in Khazalid (perhaps pertaining to being flecked with gold from gold fever?)
 
I also have to thank Boney for making me realise I don't dislike politics in fiction. I dislike court politics. Well written political fiction combined with fantasy and adventure in Boney's style is fantastic. These stakes are delicious.

I admit I was a bit unsure about how the politics would manifest themselves with the Waystone project, but now that I see it first hand I'm enjoying it quite a bit. I love these hard hitting choices.
 
Thorgrim: Alright, it's been touch and go for the last dozen decades or so, but things are finally looking up! Eight Peaks is back, Vlag is settling in, there's enough power to reactivate a Relic of the Ancestors, my Unity and Trade scores are about to jump through the roof from those canals, and the preparations for the next reclamation are well underway—
*Runesmiths Guild explodes*
Ranald: So about that Grudge...
 
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@Boney

Mathilde probably has enough of a read on dwarf culture to answer this: Is "yellow" in the context of "yellow-bearded" a reference to cowardice, as it is in English, or does it have different connotations in Khazalid (perhaps pertaining to being flecked with gold from gold fever?)

I like the idea that it has shades of all the possibilities discussed, but what I had in mind is more straightforward. Beards are a big deal in Dwarven culture, and someone with a long, white beard is someone you should listen to and respect. A Dwarf with a yellowed beard is someone that hasn't been doing the bare minimum of self-maintenance, causing what should be a visible sign of their age and wisdom to become a testament to their laziness and carelessness.
 
"And your words would give me the authority to do so. Tear it apart and melt it down, that it may be reforged anew. Since we last spoke I have been travelling the Karaz Ankor, and everywhere I look I see so-called Runelords with beards grown yellow instead of white, squatting atop their secrets as jealously and uselessly as a Dragon atop a hoard. They fail the Karaz Ankor twice over, for in the absence of Thungni, Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation as He tries to do alone what should be the work of two. I will correct this in time, but could do so in a more efficient and lasting manner with your testimony as a banner."
Hell yes! I love you Thorek!

Politics. Why did it have to be politics?
Always has been…😉 Since the first chapter in fact.

Mathilde's Seed of Regrowth can reattach limbs.
For one moment I thought we were asking Johann to definitely loose an arm😅

Another issue to think about is if the Sigmarites who support Nordland would be amplified by the Lord Magister "persecuting" Imperial Dwarves in order to further the tensions between Middenland and Nordland.
Good point. Also, the fact that Thorek is so upset at those Dwarfs who personally had nothing to do with the whole thing bothers me. The fact that they would loose their heritage isn't very nice for them.

On the other hand, their hold won't get reclaimed in the foreseeable future, and is probably very low on the priority list thanks to their ancestors' actions. I say we can do that sacrifice 😁


Concerning the arm, I think we should give it to someone else, someone like a soldier or a warrior-priest would have more use for it than a wizard.
 
I feel inclined to point out that, unless I misunderstood things, the interpretation that Thorek wants is the one that happens to align with the apparent reality. That is to say, it's the truth.

What's our position on useful, dangerous information?

Thorek is basically asking us for a bloody shirt to wave. In this situation, the shirt is definitely bloody, but because of our lack of information, we can't be certain what exactly caused the bleeding. Having support from the rest of the Runesmith Guild may very well have done nothing for Karag Dum; without Karak Vlag, they were simply too isolated within the Chaos Wastes to receive meaningful support. They could have fallen anyway, especially since Dum was cut off by a full-blown Storm of Chaos. Isolation from the Guild most certainly didn't help Karag Dum, but we can't prove that it was sufficient on its own merits to cause the fall of the Hold. It's supposition, but as the leader of the Expedition, we get to write history to some extent. Whatever we say will be given great weight.

I think regardless of what we say, Thorek will use this as an excuse to begin taking pot shots at the rest of the Runesmiths. It would be more equivocal without the support of the official report, but there's still an underlying truth that the Runesmiths abandoned Karag Dum. Attributing culpability to the Runesmith Guild in the official histography merely accelerates the timeline Thorek's probably already put together in his mind and minimizes the amount of bullshit and equivocation his political opponents will make. He has made absolute no bones about what his goals are: he's going to break the guild and reforge it into something better. He's clearly driven and as a dawi the fact it could take decades or centuries is irrelevant. Refusing to assist Thorek in this endeavour doesn't make the problem go away, it merely means his reckoning will be delayed to some other time.

In fact, I think regardless of what we do, Thorek is going to move as quickly and as vigorously as he can on this issue. If he doesn't then it likely means the more reactionary elements of the Guild will move to censure the rune pokers of Karak Vlag. While Vlag is almost certainly not what Thorek has in mind when he discusses wanting to more freely share Runesmithing secrets, they're likely to be much closer than the ultra conservatives that currently dominate the Guild. If Vlag is successfully censured, then it makes Thorek obtaining his goals that much harder; there would be solid precedent against the direction he wants to move. If Thorek can point to Karag Dum as a mistake, with the official report blaming the Runesmiths for isolating the Guild of Karag Dum, it makes it much harder politically for the Guild to do similar things to Karak Vlag which in turn become precedent for a more tolerant and permissive Runesmith Guild.

I think the key take way point is this: Thorek is looking to pick a fight. This fight will happen and with Karak Vlag returning with the Rune Pokers, there's already pre-existing flashpoints. A long, drawn out disagreement between Runesmiths is probably the worst outcome as that provides the greatest opportunity for people to become invested in the argument which then increases the likelihood of Grudges or Runesmiths going Slayer if they lose out politically. Thus, shouldn't it be in our best interests to weight things towards Thorek as much as possible? We do want his viewpoint to win and by giving him advantages, we shorten the overall length of the fight that will happen.
 
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