That is...
Oof.
Provided they still possess even scraps of that knowledge.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Oof.
Provided they still possess even scraps of that knowledge.
- Location
- Canada (eh)
So an extra consideration about grafting the arm onto someone other than Johann is that we might be effectively killing them. After all how long do you think it will take before the average former amputee is mobbed by hungry peasants or the local bandits and murdered for the obviously golden arm. Sure they could hide it but something like that would likely slip out after a night of drinking or visiting a lover.
There's a reason the gold order tells its magisters not to gild anything visible until they can reliably fight off masses of peasants. And the average amputee probably cant.
There's a reason the gold order tells its magisters not to gild anything visible until they can reliably fight off masses of peasants. And the average amputee probably cant.
We probably would not use an ordinary amputee, more like a veteran witch hunter or a Inner Circle Knight of one of the orders.
Even if Thorek would be okay with torturing innocent citizens of the Empire and then giving them calcification lobotomies to cover it up - and he wouldn't be, for the record - ask yourself if that's the sort of thing you really want the quest to explore. Mathilde delves into some pretty dark shades of grey at times, but doing that sort of thing in the name of political expedience rather than actual necessity would be several levels beyond that.
Those Dwarves have been living safely within Middenheim ever since they left Karaz Ghumzul, so to a Dwarven perspective there's no reason they would have lost any of that information.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
That is assuming that the former amputee will remain average after having a magic item grafted onto them and not someone who just got a lot of high profile attention on them.
That probably comes down to a die roll to see who would be both applicable and willing within the relevant timeframe.
If only beggars are available Mathilde would have to use one of them.
This is the Empire. I genuinely do not think there is a lack of one armed warriors willing to try their luck with odd artifacts. We might well roll for quality, but I do not think the scale goes as far down as beggar... well unless the beggar used to be a person of great skill and trust in the Empire which i sadly possible.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but what about Rosie's witchhunter? He's missing an arm as of the last time we saw him, I think? Assuming he's still alive?
- Location
- Earth
I'm thinking the both option is the way to go. But at the same time, if he's going to do this, Mat should do some hanging out/consulting/diplo polish with him. I don't doubt his political savvy. But he has a very different perspective avaliable to help with the planning and it should help. What no one wants is for this to turn to true Grudges and Slayer RuneLords. If only there was a non-conventional thinker around to help with that.
IE: I think if Mat's going to throw in with Thorek, some AP should be expended to ensure proper results. Which won't be easy to carve out in the future.
IE: I think if Mat's going to throw in with Thorek, some AP should be expended to ensure proper results. Which won't be easy to carve out in the future.
Codex
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Not sure the paranoid Witch Hunter serving a Magic Phobic Elector Count would be all that willing to consent to experimentation with an unknown magical artifact. Yes Rosie has learned to get over some of her hangups, but I'm pretty sure part of those hangups were caused by her upbringing, which he's most definitely connected to. Chances are he'll look at us like we're mad.
It's not like we know him enough to be sure what reaction we'll get, but chances it's positive are low.
- Location
- Utrecht
Something which I actually haven't seen posted regarding the Thorek/Kragg rivalry:
Kragg doesn't do politics, and he doesn't teach because no one alive is worthy.
Thorek immerses himself in politics, and teaches as much as he can, because no one alive is currently worth anything.
Kragg is as whitebearded as they come, and the Runesmith's guild is imitating him. Hoarding knowledge until they find someone worthy of it.
Thorek is another whitebeard, and he wants the Runesmiths to imitate him, instead of Kragg. He can't one up Kragg as a Runelord, because he's half his age... but he can overshadow his influence, because Kragg doesn't do politics.
Lastly, Thorek is probably going to do his level best to reform the Runesmiths guild. He was already raring to do it before we came back from Dum.
The upheaval is inevitable.
We might as well give him the leverage he needs to stack the deck and succeed.
He's going to take a hammer to the guild anyway, might as well give him the biggest one we can.
Kragg doesn't do politics, and he doesn't teach because no one alive is worthy.
Thorek immerses himself in politics, and teaches as much as he can, because no one alive is currently worth anything.
Kragg is as whitebearded as they come, and the Runesmith's guild is imitating him. Hoarding knowledge until they find someone worthy of it.
Thorek is another whitebeard, and he wants the Runesmiths to imitate him, instead of Kragg. He can't one up Kragg as a Runelord, because he's half his age... but he can overshadow his influence, because Kragg doesn't do politics.
Lastly, Thorek is probably going to do his level best to reform the Runesmiths guild. He was already raring to do it before we came back from Dum.
The upheaval is inevitable.
We might as well give him the leverage he needs to stack the deck and succeed.
He's going to take a hammer to the guild anyway, might as well give him the biggest one we can.
I think we should also keep in mind that Mathilde said last update, you know playing with am empty hand before the Eonir. Well if we bring Thorek on board not just willing to help but as a partner that would be a hell of a card to play. I mean imagine how they are going to take the most powerful runelord in all of the Karaz Ankor showing up on their doorstep.
- Location
- Somewhere.
I want to do this right if we do do this. I just don't know if we're even going to really have the option and I don't want to blow all the things up.
I was thinking about using illusions and the Coin to pretend to be various dwarfs rather than a hard interrogation.
That said my idea basically assumed running for months impersonating Ghumzul dwarfs and then mindholing them - the amount of calcification might have made torture the healthier option.
That's a fair enough assumption particularly for a dwarf to make - I was wondering if Mathilde with her increased awareness of lost knowledge would consider the possibility that relevant knowledge was actually lost.
That's still Kragg. Thorek is the second most powerful Runelord.
Thorek is going to try to blow things up regardless and if he loses that will still be a masive loss to the Karaz Ankor not just in the person of himself and his line of runesmiths, but in the mentality that will be lost with him. If the Runesmith's guild does not reform now chances are it will never reform and instead wither and die.
- Location
- Somewhere.
Putting aside the morality question, that's the sort of gambit that costs nothing if it goes perfectly but costs everything if it doesn't. When the cost for doing things straightforwardly isn't so high, it doesn't make sense to risk imploding the reputations of everyone involved just to avoid paying it.
It's not impossible, but it seems extremely unlikely for Dwarves to have just forgotten how to unseal the hold of their ancestors when they've been living in the same incredibly well-defended place since the year they sealed it.
The story Mathilde may or may not tell of Karag Dum is the only influence she has over the internal affairs of the Runesmiths Guild. She can't exactly show up to their meetings and start banging heads together.
Reading this again I feel like we might be able to handle the Middenheim dwarves with more less damage if we don't take Thorek's approach as gospel. He is a very old Dwarven Runesmith that is dealing with an old grudge so he first thoughts are the getting the keys by pressure and force. But we aren't him and we can approach this differently, we can use the gentle approach.
We are a Grey Wizard Ranaldite! I think if we take this deal it the first thing we do is talk to the Al-Ulfric or Lady Wizard of the city or somebody else about introducing us to Middenhiem society notables, maybe use that to see about potential partners for any Laurenlorn trade plans or any other things we might want to do their as well. Take some time to talk to the Middenheim Dwarf community as just Mathilde getting to know the local dwarves and see the situation. Remember what we did when we learned about the Eonir last turn? Same for imperial dwarves of Middenhiem.
Information is power and once we know the field better we can get the key with as little damage as possible. Thorek will probably grumble but he he is still a Dwarven Runesmith and being patient and subtle about a sensitive matter of honor is hardly something he can too angry about. I'm sure it will probably be require some force applied but we can be a lot cleaner about this if we are careful.
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Sick and tired of being Sick and Tired
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So is the drawfhold thing liable to lead to a lot of murder for no practical gain to any polity or am I misunderstanding things here?
- Location
- Finland
While the Runelords Thorek is going after may be imitating Kragg in a way, they are not Kragg.
Kragg is the greatest runelord alive, and everyone knows it, he has lot more leeway to argue that nobody is worthy of his teachings, where Runelords who are not as good as the number 2 Runelord Thorek do not.
And while the Runelords with their bears groing yellow are sitting on their hoard of secrets, Kragg went and helped retake a major hold, and as actively working to protect it.
I think Thorek could use Kraggs recent activities as an argument in his favour.
If Kragg got of his but and went out to do things, what excuse do you people have?
- Location
- Earth
That'd be severely mitigated because it'd be done to help another Dawi and the Karaz Ankor.
- Location
- Finland
Anything could lead to a lot of murder for no practical gain.
But i don't see how this would have any higher change to do so than anything else we do.
Codex
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Murder? What murder? Thorek is asking for us to exert our political influence in the Empire to pressure the Karaz Ghumzul descendants to give us the secrets to entering their holds that they haven't been to in 3000 years. This is definitely going to irritate them, but unless things go horribly wrong, no murder at all should be happening.
Unrest is a thing. Murder is another.
- Location
- Utrecht
Yep. But they are imitating Kragg because he is the Eldest. And they're doing a shoddy job of it, because they aren't Kragg.
I think Thorek wants to push Kragg out of the cultural niche he naturally occupies due to being the eldest.
Kragg has got a lot of influence on the guild, even though he has no interest in it.