Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Well fuck let nobody say that all Dwarves are risk adverse!
I mean Thorek has to know that this could end up with him shamed and disgraced if it goes wrong too right? I can't help but wonder what role his humiliation and grudge with Kragg is playing with this course. Was the Rune of Superior Skill incident enough that he is trying to double down on proving himself greatest Runesmith alive in the ways Kragg isn't? If he can't be the greatest Runesmith in terms of making Rune he will do it by being the best guild politician perhaps to the point of dangerous overreach?
I mean Thorek has to know that this could end up with him shamed and disgraced if it goes wrong too right? I can't help but wonder what role his humiliation and grudge with Kragg is playing with this course. Was the Rune of Superior Skill incident enough that he is trying to double down on proving himself greatest Runesmith alive in the ways Kragg isn't? If he can't be the greatest Runesmith in terms of making Rune he will do it by being the best guild politician perhaps to the point of dangerous overreach?
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- Space
While that was certainly part of his meaning, he did describe the adherents of Morgrim as reckless and hasty. He wants Thungni to step up so Morgrim doesn't need to be "reckless and hasty" (which would be good, I'm sure we all agree), but a part of the goal there is for Morgrim to stop being "reckless and hasty", which certainly sounds like a slow down.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Honestly, given Kragg's personal stance on the Holds recovered and things like Thorgrim's inaction during the Waaagh, he might not actually mind Thorek knocking heads together for what was nearly the same thing. At least if I'm understanding his core argument here that the guilds refused aid to Dum and it forced them into shameful actions to survive.
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
He sits on them, yes, but recently he's decided that instead of hoarding them in the middle of a well defended mountain, he'd rather sit on his hoard in the middle of a battle, tearing apart all comers. Thorek mentions dwarves with beards turning yellow rather than white; while there's a lot to be said about Kragg, you'd be hard pressed to think Mr. "I'll die before seeing another hold fall" is a coward.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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- She/Her
Thorek is under the belief that if the Runesmiths stepped up, then the engineers would see no reason to be reckless and hasty and go back to trusty designs. The thing is, Thorek doesn't have enough influence to change anything about the Engineering Guild directly, he just thinks his actions will cause them to rethink things.
We, on the other hand, know Gotri. Even if the Engineer's Guild decided to become more conservative, he's not stopping his experimentations.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Yeah, when Thorek talks about Morgrim being reckless and hasty, he's probably thinking about all this:
The Karaz Ankor needed all that... but Azul didn't. That's probably what influences Thorek to think that way about the Engineer's Guilds of the larger Karaz Ankor.
squee
I absolutely love these two nerds doing science together.
Mathilde poking things is always good. Adding a collaborate rarely fails to make it better.
Right up there with "Is this thing radioactive?"
Best minion continues to prove himself Best minion.
Sounds like by far the best option is to bolt it to Johann and see what happens.
Hard to argue with her track record.
Grey Wizards do not suffer from paranoia, they utilise it.
Probably the biggest sign of how respected Mathilde is by the Dwarfs of the Karaz Ankor is how willing they are to speak of such things.
Recovering runic items, material wealth and lost knowledge from a fallen Hold? Sounds right up Mathilde's ally.
Also sounds like the sort of problem we could spend a Great Deed to remove.
Oh boy.
Important to keep in mind that Thorek is very much a conservative. While him remaking the Rune Guild(s) in his image would be an improvement, it would not be all we would wish. Note the 'reckless and hasty' comment.
Even saying that however… I'm inclined to support him.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Did a second read of the update, for the sake of actually savoring it, and wow did I love the experimentation scene. We may have freaked out prematurely about Egrimm, he seemed pretty into fiddling with this ancient relic we dropped in his lap, and I really like how WEBMAT actions are collaborative and not just "let pet wizard work for six months, get back results." More work for Boney, yeah, but the dividends in fun reading are great.
Also, here are some typo fixes because of who I am as a person:
Also, here are some typo fixes because of who I am as a person:
either "that he wants to prevent the rest of his Guild from learning of the meeting" or "that he does not want the rest of his Guild to learn of the meeting"
principal -> principle
Either the Though or the but needs to be removed.
The Great Deed would certainly make Middenheim agree but that doesn't erase the fact that it will tank their relationship with the local dwarfs.
- Pronouns
- He
Thorek's mental blood-math doesn't quite add up to me. Clearly he values his runesmithing time in dwarven blood. That feels kind of dissonant with his 'carve the yellow beards out of the RS guild' plan.
Since if he successfully went through with that, there are likely a significant number of runelords who, while not at his level, are close, that would feel the urge to go Slayer and thus deprive the KA of their runesmithing time.
something something divided loyalties I guess? That favor definitely feels like a much, much heavier ask than the first one.
i wonder if he even really wants to go through with it for the above reasons, given that he was a lot more pumped up about the middle mountain delving favor.
Since if he successfully went through with that, there are likely a significant number of runelords who, while not at his level, are close, that would feel the urge to go Slayer and thus deprive the KA of their runesmithing time.
something something divided loyalties I guess? That favor definitely feels like a much, much heavier ask than the first one.
i wonder if he even really wants to go through with it for the above reasons, given that he was a lot more pumped up about the middle mountain delving favor.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
He can do patient and subtle, but what he's said about the topic has suggests that he has absolutely no intention of being so in this specific situation.
He wants to 'tear the guild asunder', 'melt it down, that it may be reforged anew'. That's not wording that implies anything even approaching a careful and measured approach.
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The worst part could be stalling out the nascent resurgence of the dwarves as some of their most militarily important and influential figures begin infighting and swearing Slayer oaths
Fuuuuuuuuck that's nasty. Can't say I like either option.
I think we are looking at asking the middlehiem dwarfs for their keys in the the wrong way. From what I can find they Sealed their hold because of something and refuse to talk about what happened. This will involve some negotiations on Mathilde part. Like why have the dwarfs never tried to reclaim their Karak.
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- Space
In Total War Warhammer those mountains are full of orcs, I think. It's plausible they just weren't able to rally up anyone to help after pissing off the Karaz Ankor so bad.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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- She/Her
I think it's important to mention that while the Runesmiths are a strong contingent of the Karaz Ankor, they are not the only military force that the entirety of their kingdom rests upon.
I find myself looking askance at the though that disrupting the Runesmith's guild would somehow ruin the reclamation efforts for Mt.Silverspear. Thorek explicitly said he'd be targeting "yellow bearded" runesmiths, the ones least likely to contribute to the reclamation due to their cowardice. And even so, Karak Eight Peaks had 1-2 Runelords for support and no other Runesmith support. Karag Dum had a swarm of Thorek's apprentices assist with preparations. Both expeditions succeeded without us seeing the face of any runesmith that wasn't from Azul or Kragg himself. Mt.Silverspear is watched over by a thousand updating surveilance cameras with real time tracking, Runesmiths can help but they're not the deciding factor there.
The current Karaz Ankor projects are a job for rangers and highly mobile units. Am I saying that tearing the Runesmith's guild apart will have no consequences? No. I think all these choices have consequences. I am simply willing to accept them to advance the Waystone project, and I don't find the consequences largely objectionable to me specifically.
I find myself looking askance at the though that disrupting the Runesmith's guild would somehow ruin the reclamation efforts for Mt.Silverspear. Thorek explicitly said he'd be targeting "yellow bearded" runesmiths, the ones least likely to contribute to the reclamation due to their cowardice. And even so, Karak Eight Peaks had 1-2 Runelords for support and no other Runesmith support. Karag Dum had a swarm of Thorek's apprentices assist with preparations. Both expeditions succeeded without us seeing the face of any runesmith that wasn't from Azul or Kragg himself. Mt.Silverspear is watched over by a thousand updating surveilance cameras with real time tracking, Runesmiths can help but they're not the deciding factor there.
The current Karaz Ankor projects are a job for rangers and highly mobile units. Am I saying that tearing the Runesmith's guild apart will have no consequences? No. I think all these choices have consequences. I am simply willing to accept them to advance the Waystone project, and I don't find the consequences largely objectionable to me specifically.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I don't remember the Middle Mountains having any factions in them in TW, you might be thinking of Massif Orcal in Bretonnia?
But yes, in general, the Middle Mountains are full of gribblies these days. It's where Gorthor the Beastlord came from, for one.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
So I'm not going to bother trying to play Thorek's political games for him, but it occurs to me that the Runesmiths Guild is already dealing with an intractable problem, in the form of Vlag.
And while I'm sure Thorek views the current state of Vlag's Runesmithing as as much of a travesty as the rest of the Guild does, I feel like his goal of increasing knowledge sharing is more conducive to eventually solving the rune-poker integration issue than the current guild stance. So that might be another tool he could use?
I'm sure the man's got plans beyond browbeating the guild with old failures, after all.
And while I'm sure Thorek views the current state of Vlag's Runesmithing as as much of a travesty as the rest of the Guild does, I feel like his goal of increasing knowledge sharing is more conducive to eventually solving the rune-poker integration issue than the current guild stance. So that might be another tool he could use?
I'm sure the man's got plans beyond browbeating the guild with old failures, after all.
- Location
- Canada
Alright, let's look over the Thorek section in a bit more detail
We've been seeing the good side of the dwarves for quite a long time, and here is our long overdue look at the other side of that coin. Their inability to let go of a grudge has never really been a problem for us, as the Empire as a whole has managed to avoid getting any serious grudges against it as an entity. However here we see what happens when that's not the case. Apparently Thorek - despite being from a hold that's about as far away from Ghumzul as it is possible to get, that's been cut off for 3000 years - still harbour that grudge against Ghumzul, and from the way he speaks it seems almost personal to him. While this ugly side of the dwarves has always been there, I think this is the first time we've ever seen it come out.
So Thorek's first price is to put a little pressure on the the Imperial Dwarves in order to get them to give up the keys to their old hold. Unfortunately, this likely has larger implications than it would seem. IIRC there have been periods in imperial history where pogroms against the Imperial Dwarves occured, and even when not activly racist the wiki tells me there's always a simmering resentment amongst the lower classes. This likely makes them not likely to respond all that well to the Empire putting pressure on them. Even beyond that, it could drive a wedge between the Imperial Dwarves, and the KA dwarves that might cause problems.
Further, I don't think our reputation amongst the dwarves will amount to nearly as much with them as it will in the Karaz Ankor. From what little has been mentioned of them, they see themselves as culturally distinct from the KA, and while our rep will likely buy us some amount of goodwill, it likely won't stretch nearly as far as we would expect. Further, as mentioned in the Nuln spymaster interview the Imperial Dwarves still get upset when someone tries to mess with their old fortresses - even if there isn't much let standing.
Because of the above factors, this will likely cause a seperation between the Imperial Dwarves, and the Empire leadership. This might amount to little - the imperial nobility is likely much more powerful and influential, so even if annoyed, an argument could be made that they won't rock the boat too much. OTOH, they're still dwarves, and they'll remember slights against them. And I doubt their price for giving up the keys will be cheap... If they are willing to give them up at all (and I suspect they will not).
Now, strictly we wouldn't be agreeing to get the keys or anything, just put a bit of pressure, but it's still something that will likely have consequences. Also, attempting to get a minority group to give up an important cultural relic, so some guy from a far-off land can pillage even more relics from the site of their ancestor's graves doesn't sit well with me.
This already tells us a lot about runesmith politics right now, and I don't like what it says. It tells us that a significant fraction of the runesmith's guild is against this on principle. This means that our pool of likely recruits is probably quite small from the dwarven side. None of those saying the secrets cannot be shared at all are going to join us, and likely even more will stay away because they don't want to risk the condemnation of their peers. Which also means that if we were to turn down Thorek we probably are going to have a difficult time finding someone with the knowledge base we want if we're putting our best foot forwards. Also that we might run into runesmith related problems as the project proceeds onwards.
And here is the actual request number two. He wants us to imply that the split in the cult of Thungni was the primary cause of the fall of Karag Dum - which to be fair is certainly a plausible interpretation so we wouldn't exactly be lying. However we wouldn't exactly be telling the truth either, given we know almost nothing about the issue. And more importantly than the words themselves, we give Thorek the cause he needs to tear the guild asunder.
Now several things stand out about this. The first is his assertion that "in the absence of Thungni, Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation". Now, it is probably a good thing to remember that Azul - and Thorek by extension - have been isolated for thousands of years, and as such haven't really been party to much of the Karaz Ankor's technological advancement. Enough that Kazador prefers crossbows and bolt throwers to guns and cannon. So while he's probably opposed to the more radical things that are going on, he - and his faction, which is likely mostly Azul based - might also oppose guns and cannons, seeing even those as reckless advancement. So this could cause larger problems if he is successful.
However we could also look at this from a different direction, namely the "Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation as He tries to do alone what should be the work of two" bit. So even while he might oppose some newer tech, this might also imply good things about runic work applied to engineering. Thorek has proven willing to experiment with Anvils, so maybe his faction would be willing to experiment with things like gun runes too, to combine Morgrim and Thungni's work. Now granted, while Thorek has a different perspective to Kragg, he's still on the conservative end of things, so I don't find this too likely, but it could be something that follows if one takes an optimistic perspective.
Then there's how this effects the runesmith's guild itself. Thorek intends to change the operation of the Runesmith's guild, and unfortunately this will undoubtedly run into the stubbornness of dwarves. His opponents will not change their minds to his way of thinking, which means that what Thorek is actually advocating is essentially a purge of the runesmith's guild. Likely with a bunch of the more prominent anti-Dum runelords being forced to take the Slayer's oath, while others are essentially forces to become hermits, staying out of the limelight and becoming increasingly marginalized. Unfortunately this will probably deprive the KA of their work, and might actually precipitate another major loss of runelore as the Runelords that die take their age-old secrets to the grave with them. An argument could be made that the runesmith's guild would be better off in the very long run, but there's little doubt in my mind that this would cause a large decrease in the Karaz Ankor's capabilities in the short to medium term (I.E. within this quest).
And finally, this would tie out ship to Thorek's as far as runemith politics goes. We'd have a definate ally in him and his faction, but at the cost of alienating his enemies. And not just because he's using our words as his rallying cry - and plenty will likely guess we did it at his request - but also because his actions will increasingly politicize the runesmith's guild. And that increasing politicization will occur right as we work closely with one of the faction leaders. Something that could potentially get us into all sorts of trouble even if he wins... And if Thorek loses we - and whoever we drag into the project - also lose big. Potentially grudge-worthy big if the Thorek's loss means the consensus becomes that shareing runelore on waystones is bad, and has to be prevented.
All in all, I think we need Thorek's help here, which means we need to accept one of these prices. And while I find it distasteful, I think pressuring the imperial dwarves will turn out less bad that giving Thorek cause to tear the guild asunder. That last one is too risky, and would too diminish the dwarves at a time when their resurgence is really getting rolling. So I'm planning on
[ ] [THOREK] Karaz Ghumzul
We've been seeing the good side of the dwarves for quite a long time, and here is our long overdue look at the other side of that coin. Their inability to let go of a grudge has never really been a problem for us, as the Empire as a whole has managed to avoid getting any serious grudges against it as an entity. However here we see what happens when that's not the case. Apparently Thorek - despite being from a hold that's about as far away from Ghumzul as it is possible to get, that's been cut off for 3000 years - still harbour that grudge against Ghumzul, and from the way he speaks it seems almost personal to him. While this ugly side of the dwarves has always been there, I think this is the first time we've ever seen it come out.
So Thorek's first price is to put a little pressure on the the Imperial Dwarves in order to get them to give up the keys to their old hold. Unfortunately, this likely has larger implications than it would seem. IIRC there have been periods in imperial history where pogroms against the Imperial Dwarves occured, and even when not activly racist the wiki tells me there's always a simmering resentment amongst the lower classes. This likely makes them not likely to respond all that well to the Empire putting pressure on them. Even beyond that, it could drive a wedge between the Imperial Dwarves, and the KA dwarves that might cause problems.
Further, I don't think our reputation amongst the dwarves will amount to nearly as much with them as it will in the Karaz Ankor. From what little has been mentioned of them, they see themselves as culturally distinct from the KA, and while our rep will likely buy us some amount of goodwill, it likely won't stretch nearly as far as we would expect. Further, as mentioned in the Nuln spymaster interview the Imperial Dwarves still get upset when someone tries to mess with their old fortresses - even if there isn't much let standing.
Because of the above factors, this will likely cause a seperation between the Imperial Dwarves, and the Empire leadership. This might amount to little - the imperial nobility is likely much more powerful and influential, so even if annoyed, an argument could be made that they won't rock the boat too much. OTOH, they're still dwarves, and they'll remember slights against them. And I doubt their price for giving up the keys will be cheap... If they are willing to give them up at all (and I suspect they will not).
Now, strictly we wouldn't be agreeing to get the keys or anything, just put a bit of pressure, but it's still something that will likely have consequences. Also, attempting to get a minority group to give up an important cultural relic, so some guy from a far-off land can pillage even more relics from the site of their ancestor's graves doesn't sit well with me.
This already tells us a lot about runesmith politics right now, and I don't like what it says. It tells us that a significant fraction of the runesmith's guild is against this on principle. This means that our pool of likely recruits is probably quite small from the dwarven side. None of those saying the secrets cannot be shared at all are going to join us, and likely even more will stay away because they don't want to risk the condemnation of their peers. Which also means that if we were to turn down Thorek we probably are going to have a difficult time finding someone with the knowledge base we want if we're putting our best foot forwards. Also that we might run into runesmith related problems as the project proceeds onwards.
And here is the actual request number two. He wants us to imply that the split in the cult of Thungni was the primary cause of the fall of Karag Dum - which to be fair is certainly a plausible interpretation so we wouldn't exactly be lying. However we wouldn't exactly be telling the truth either, given we know almost nothing about the issue. And more importantly than the words themselves, we give Thorek the cause he needs to tear the guild asunder.
Now several things stand out about this. The first is his assertion that "in the absence of Thungni, Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation". Now, it is probably a good thing to remember that Azul - and Thorek by extension - have been isolated for thousands of years, and as such haven't really been party to much of the Karaz Ankor's technological advancement. Enough that Kazador prefers crossbows and bolt throwers to guns and cannon. So while he's probably opposed to the more radical things that are going on, he - and his faction, which is likely mostly Azul based - might also oppose guns and cannons, seeing even those as reckless advancement. So this could cause larger problems if he is successful.
However we could also look at this from a different direction, namely the "Morgrim grows reckless and hasty in his experimentation as He tries to do alone what should be the work of two" bit. So even while he might oppose some newer tech, this might also imply good things about runic work applied to engineering. Thorek has proven willing to experiment with Anvils, so maybe his faction would be willing to experiment with things like gun runes too, to combine Morgrim and Thungni's work. Now granted, while Thorek has a different perspective to Kragg, he's still on the conservative end of things, so I don't find this too likely, but it could be something that follows if one takes an optimistic perspective.
Then there's how this effects the runesmith's guild itself. Thorek intends to change the operation of the Runesmith's guild, and unfortunately this will undoubtedly run into the stubbornness of dwarves. His opponents will not change their minds to his way of thinking, which means that what Thorek is actually advocating is essentially a purge of the runesmith's guild. Likely with a bunch of the more prominent anti-Dum runelords being forced to take the Slayer's oath, while others are essentially forces to become hermits, staying out of the limelight and becoming increasingly marginalized. Unfortunately this will probably deprive the KA of their work, and might actually precipitate another major loss of runelore as the Runelords that die take their age-old secrets to the grave with them. An argument could be made that the runesmith's guild would be better off in the very long run, but there's little doubt in my mind that this would cause a large decrease in the Karaz Ankor's capabilities in the short to medium term (I.E. within this quest).
And finally, this would tie out ship to Thorek's as far as runemith politics goes. We'd have a definate ally in him and his faction, but at the cost of alienating his enemies. And not just because he's using our words as his rallying cry - and plenty will likely guess we did it at his request - but also because his actions will increasingly politicize the runesmith's guild. And that increasing politicization will occur right as we work closely with one of the faction leaders. Something that could potentially get us into all sorts of trouble even if he wins... And if Thorek loses we - and whoever we drag into the project - also lose big. Potentially grudge-worthy big if the Thorek's loss means the consensus becomes that shareing runelore on waystones is bad, and has to be prevented.
All in all, I think we need Thorek's help here, which means we need to accept one of these prices. And while I find it distasteful, I think pressuring the imperial dwarves will turn out less bad that giving Thorek cause to tear the guild asunder. That last one is too risky, and would too diminish the dwarves at a time when their resurgence is really getting rolling. So I'm planning on
[ ] [THOREK] Karaz Ghumzul
- Pronouns
- He/His/etc
How likely is it that the Hysh in the arm will interact with the Chamon in Johann?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm not sure that 'yellow bearded' was aspersions of cowardice? Personally I thought it was referring to a hoarding mentality.
For what it's worth, K8P actually had quite a bit of indirect Runesmith support- Clan Angrund being dressed to the nines in runic gear was a pretty important lynchpin in a number of battles.