Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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torroar said:
Yes the underground canal built into the Sea of Claws is not built yet. For the moment, the Norse Dwarf Navy sails not south through the underground but north into the Sea of Chaos around the northern bend of Norsca. Which, to be fair, also means that their ships made of wood with bolt throwers and harpoons are crewed by dwarf sailors who regularly sail the Sea of Chaos. Between Norscans and the tribes and creatures of the Northern Chaos Wastes. Or Black Arks, I suppose. Or skaven, now and again. Usually they've been making short jaunts around that northern coast to trade and resupply with the various outposts and what not. Otherwise it's the Underway, which is in frankly awful condition in Norsca even compared to the rest of the Karaz Ankor because Chaos is right there, in their face, hardcore. Alongside other various underground threats. Kraka Ravnsvake can travel along the same river which Sjotraken is connected to, with Kraka Drak also making use of that passage. But they don't have easy access to the Sea of Claws and therefore the Empire/Kislev right now.
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So my question is, if Uldin and Bugman met, would they be more likely to compete against each other endlessly for the title of World's Greatest Brewmaster, or work together to make the best brew in the world?
 
Timewarriors said:
If the canal ever get build in this timeline are the Norse dwarf open to Barak Varr teaching them how to make metal ships or is that too radical for them?
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Once the canal is build, hopeflly we will have a messangers via Kislev. then we can deploy Blue steel Fleet as escort
Preety sure Freddy would swear his dynasty would provide some escort for every dwarfen fleet leaving his province towards Drakk Canal.
It has potential. With Kislev and Empire united in desire to forge a connection? Possible.
 
Timewarriors said:
If the canal ever get build in this timeline are the Norse dwarf open to Barak Varr teaching them how to make metal ships or is that too radical for them?
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It's difficult to say, based on the new 4thED Sea of Claws supplement, they're still quite happy with their wood ships, with some metal reinforcements, without leaping to ironclads. But I didn't find anything that specifically said when the canal had to be built, but if it was already built, then GW would be retconning the total mystery behind them and the potency of the deed of Thorgrim in re-discovering them. Plus, if they had access to the Sea of Claws this whole time, you should have been seeing them for ages more, you know? Even a note of like, having to repeatedly rebuild the canal because of it being destroyed would be something, but I couldn't find even that much.

Genon said:
So my question is, if Uldin and Bugman met, would they be more likely to compete against each other endlessly for the title of World's Greatest Brewmaster, or work together to make the best brew in the world?
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Liable to compete for a long while at minimum, doubt on working together closely. Dwarfs have whole Grudges and rivalries amongst Clans and Holds over things, if they were willing to regularly just join hands kumbayaa over every disagreement between masters of different crafts, they wouldn't be dwarfs. Two different Master Engineers, Brewmasters, etc. arguing over stuff could and often is years to decades to centuries to generational disagreements.
 
My bets on canal being postponed dou to obligations else where. Hopefully its somewhat along being done. Still. They would then need a fleet. And we all know how that goes .
 
torroar said:
Liable to compete for a long while at minimum, doubt on working together closely. Dwarfs have whole Grudges and rivalries amongst Clans and Holds over things, if they were willing to regularly just join hands kumbayaa over every disagreement between masters of different crafts, they wouldn't be dwarfs. Two different Master Engineers, Brewmasters, etc. arguing over stuff could and often is years to decades to centuries to generational disagreements.
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So another Thorek Ironbrow/Kragg The Grim rivalry, then - except with alcohol instead of runes!
 
Miffychan said:
So another Thorek Ironbrow/Kragg The Grim rivalry, then - except with alcohol instead of runes!
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Except this one would have both side being equal and able to properly challenge each other.

In canon Thorek and Kragg isn't comparable on the other hand, Kragg is objectively the better runesmith in canon, Thorek on the other hand is more likely to actually DO something that helpful.
 
torroar said:
It's difficult to say, based on the new 4thED Sea of Claws supplement, they're still quite happy with their wood ships, with some metal reinforcements, without leaping to ironclads. But I didn't find anything that specifically said when the canal had to be built, but if it was already built, then GW would be retconning the total mystery behind them and the potency of the deed of Thorgrim in re-discovering them. Plus, if they had access to the Sea of Claws this whole time, you should have been seeing them for ages more, you know? Even a note of like, having to repeatedly rebuild the canal because of it being destroyed would be something, but I couldn't find even that much.
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Which is odd given what it says on wiki on subject.
Though now isolated, the Norse Dwarfs knew that it was only a matter of time before the power of their protection was overwhelmed. Thus, they constructed Ungruvalk, an underground link from Draksfjord to the River Dypvann (Khazalid: Dumaraz), which separates southeastern Norsca from Troll Country. In 2292 IC, the Dwarfs completed this link with warded entrances at both ends. Norse Dwarf longships could now journey to the Sea of Claws without circumnavigating the whole of Norsca.[1b]​


Great War Against Chaos



During the Great War Against Chaos in 2302 IC, Norse Dwarf forces sailed through the underground passage from the port of Sjoktraken to the Sea of Claws, where they harassed the flanks of the Chaos hordes that descended upon Kislev. And it was then, in the final Battle of Grovod Wood, that the Norse Dwarfs and the Dwarfs of Karaz Ankor greeted one another for the first time in nearly 7,000 years.[1b]​
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So while recent by dwarf standards the underground canal should be complete since they used it in Great War.

Of course, the source material is that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st Edition: Stone and Steel (RPG), so understandable if you want to change it to fit own version of setting torroar.

Goodness knows GW has more than a few canon conflicts or weird lore bits to work around.
 
Massgamer said:
Which is odd given what it says on wiki on subject.

So while recent by dwarf standards the underground canal should be complete since they used it in Great War.

Of course, the source material is that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st Edition: Stone and Steel (RPG), so understandable if you want to change it to fit own version of setting torroar.

Goodness knows GW has more than a few canon conflicts or weird lore bits to work around.
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The issue with the canal being done is how the fuck did the Karaz Ankor lost contact with the Norse dwarf again with chaos being able to kill Karak Drakk in the meantime?
 
Timewarriors said:
The issue with the canal being done is how the fuck did the Karaz Ankor lost contact with the Norse dwarf again with chaos being able to kill Karak Drakk in the meantime?
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I chalk that up to GW being stupid, as usual, but in quest up to GM.

Could be canal not being complete is being damaged or something else, whatever they prefer and feels makes sense to them.
 
Yeah it's all quite wonky. During the GWAC, you've got King Alriksson, and he's the one in charge, but by 8th ED Armybook, after he comes back from the ending of the GWAC, there is the year long period where various dwarfs tried to do great deeds to become worthy of being High King which did involve Thorgrim...the line is weird. Like it says:

For during the campaign in Kislev, after High King Alriksson had been injured, it had been Thorgrim who had re-established the old ties with those long distant clans. In turn, each of the Norscan kings spoke of Thorgrim, and of the deeds of valour he had performed in the icy north; of great monsters slain and battles won. Yet such acts were not the extent of Thorgrim's journeys.

But here's the problem with that.

What the fuck do you mean during the campaign? The whole point of Alriksson was that he was SO stubborn and doughty that despite near fatal wounds he kept on leading, being the High King, was present for the ending of the GWAC, marched all the way down to the Everpeak, decided 'you know what, I think I'll probably be dying in a bit, but I want a good successor, and will rule the Karaz Ankor perfectly well despite my fatal wounds for at least a year' and then he did that. Then the others showed up, and 'during the campaign' Thorgrim did a thing that didn't matter during the GWAC proper or whatever the fuck? Then he did lots of deeds that...should already be known to the other dwarfs if he did it 'during the campaign'? And if he had done so during the GWAC, it means he...went back up there and did lots of adventures and deeds there to get the Norse dwarf kings to come back south to talk him up in the Everpeak?

It's a mess to try and read and figure out the logistics of.

Which also brings out the issues of how in the hell Kraka Drak got besieged by Valmir Aesling, the gates exploded and buried the dwarfs and Chaos forces inside, and they fought for decades within the mountains...and none of this was brought up at any point to the oh so heroic Thorgrim who had re-established ties to them? No dwarfs popped out of the canal to go ask for help or send a messenger to the dwarfs to march right back north and aid them? Nothing? None of the other Norse dwarf holds were there to think of doing so? What? And that timeline sometimes makes the time between Aesling hitting the effective largest and most populous and powerful kraka in Norsca like, a staggeringly short amount of time between the GWAC and what not.

So what or who or where was all these re-established ties or whatever else???

Even if the Norse dwarfs came through the canal and helped, Alriksson being injured should have meant dick all to whether or not he would be the one to talk to them and face them because he wandered around with multiple fatal sucking festering wounds for more than a year just fucking fine, so why on EARTH would he not be the one to talk to them anyway, Thorgrim or not, if they showed up during the GWAC?

So no, the canal was not used during the GWAC, not in DoDA universe. It got like, exploded or skavened or Chaos'd or whatever, and they've been under siege since so haven't had the time or attention or resources to rebuild it right now. After Kraka Drak falls, Kraka Ravnsvake was the one to rebuild it as they also sent settlers to go retake and repopulate Kraka Drak, that's how I'm running with it for my headcanon.
 
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torroar said:
The whole point of Alriksson was that he was SO stubborn and doughty that despite near fatal wounds he kept on leading, being the High King, was present for the ending of the GWAC, marched all the way down to the Everpeak, decided 'you know what, I think I'll probably be dying in a bit, but I want a good successor, and will rule the Karaz Ankor perfectly well despite my fatal wounds for at least a year' and then he did that.
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Just want to say how awesome and so dwarf-like that is, lol.

Its like if Kragg found all the lost runes all at once he'd just drop dead since his stubborn goal was fulfilled.
torroar said:
And that timeline sometimes makes the time between Aesling hitting the effective largest and most populous and powerful kraka in Norsca like, a staggeringly short amount of time between the GWAC and what not.
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Yeah... especially considering that according to lore the Norse Dwarfs apparently have things like Master Runes that have been protecting them for thousands of years.
The closeness that once existed between the Norse Dwarfs and their Human neighbours was now replaced with unease and mistrust. The Dwarfs discontinued trade with their neighbours, and began to refortify their holds. They destroyed the trails that led from their settlements and mines to those of the Norscans, and erected huge sarsen stones around the borders of their land. A powerful Master Rune was inscribed upon each stone, to protect the Dwarf lands within their borders.[1b]​
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But apparently this random guy, who is not even the Everchosen, was able to break past all that and take out Drak in such a short time?

Just sounds like typical GW 'the bad guy always has to win' stupidity at play, where the good guys can't have nothing nice.
torroar said:
So no, the canal was not used during the GWAC, not in DoDA universe. It got like, exploded or skavened or Chaos'd or whatever, and they've been under siege since so haven't had the time or attention or resources to rebuild it right now. After Kraka Drak falls, Kraka Ravnsvake was the one to rebuild it as they also sent settlers to go retake and repopulate Kraka Drak, that's how I'm running with it for my headcanon.
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Makes sense to me, though obviously do hope that Drak survives in quest thanks to their newest allies.

And hey, maybe we can offer some help too once we make landfall if we run into them, lol. After all, we do have some freed Norse dwarf slaves among our little ragtag army, so maybe they can act as guides.

On a random note, I noticed this in the Norse dwarf sidestory, but since they were cut off from their cousins awhile ago/the War of Vengeance never reached as far as them, do they just not have a problem with the high elves? If so, that could potentially service as a diplomatic opening.
 
It is in fact noted in the 4thED Sea of Claws supplement infobook that the Norse Dwarfs don't have nearly the kinds of problems with elves that their southern kin do. Notably more tolerable towards them. They also refute the authority of the High King of the Karaz Ankor over themselves, so big sweeping decrees from Thorgrim simply do not carry the same weight for them as they would for any of the rest of the dwarf peoples. They're a separate enclave/realm of dwarfs in a number of ways, albeit still connected as kin and blood and so on. One of the quest prompts is an Asur trader getting murdered in an inn within Kraka Ravnsvake, meaning that they're able to just go there, whereas you're much less likely to see an Asur trader allowed into Barak Varr, I would think.
 
torroar said:
It is in fact noted in the 4thED Sea of Claws supplement infobook that the Norse Dwarfs don't have nearly the kinds of problems with elves that their southern kin do. Notably more tolerable towards them. They also refute the authority of the High King of the Karaz Ankor over themselves, so big sweeping decrees from Thorgrim simply do not carry the same weight for them as they would for any of the rest of the dwarf peoples. They're a separate enclave/realm of dwarfs in a number of ways, albeit still connected as kin and blood and so on. One of the quest prompts is an Asur trader getting murdered in an inn within Kraka Ravnsvake, meaning that they're able to just go there, whereas you're much less likely to see an Asur trader allowed into Barak Varr, I would think.
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Cool! Assuming that the Norse dwarfs overcome invasion and rebuild underground canal, that could lead to at least some restored trade between high elves and dwarfs, and maybe even some renewed friendships.

While rest of Karak Ankor might sneer about it, as said they are a separate and equal realm to them with their own traditions and High King, only bond by blood and similar beliefs and bedrock traditions, so they can do what they want.

Hmmm, think it was noted that since they weren't hit as badly during Age of Woe/Goblin Wars that their rune knowledge is more intact as well compared to their southern kin, considering they made a serious of Master Rune protections to keep local chaos worshipping humans away, to say nothing of what they have developed since then, so maybe Kragg will take a trip up there to learn what he can as well! I can see him doing much with that Master Rune, for example.

Lots of potential either way, just so long as they survive.
 
Massgamer said:
Makes sense to me, though obviously do hope that Drak survives in quest thanks to their newest allies.
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I'm just brainstorming but these new allies may not help as much as we hope in the long term.

Okay so I'll be putting what GW's been doing with them aside, you said it yourself very well. Drak's quick fall was most likely a case bad guys win again. On "torroar's canon", war would take longer and Valmir would sooner or later ovewhelm them. Now, here Norscan dwarfs have old one fans, they fight together against tides of chaos which sounds good but is it really?

In canon, this whole war against Norscan dwarfs seemed to be a Norscan affair. As this Valmir fellow seems to hate them more than usual for his folk. Later on he gets a promotion and good as emperor of chaos sounds, he never managed to be an everchosen so I presume rest of the chaos~y folk didn't care much about his war. I'm sure an average Kurgan wouldn't mind burning down a dwarf karak but this War in The Mountains seems more of a local affair.

And here comes the Uxmaegr who allied with dwarfs. Valmir may prioritize dwarf karaks as a target but for the rest the chaos forces old one worshipping Norscans is both a challange and defiance to their gods.

torroar said:
[Early Year] Chaos Raiders Head To Norsca?: This year, there were a great many worries that the Ungols shifting so far south down the steppes would allow the yearly raids to go unchallenged until they got further down in Kislev than normal. But instead, roving bands of Kul, Dolgan, and even the more distant Khazags were seen bellowing out of the pass and heading west, into the mountains of Norsca.
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2nd gen slann is really good but even without lethargy I don't know how long he can go on in a place which is basically the backyard of Chaos Wastes. Besides, it won't be the first time a slann was overwhelmed or killed. As time goes on, I think even more chaos tribes will start to rush Norsca just because big 4 wouldn't tolerate an insult such Uxmaegr's entire existence.
 
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torroar said:
It is in fact noted in the 4thED Sea of Claws supplement infobook that the Norse Dwarfs don't have nearly the kinds of problems with elves that their southern kin do. Notably more tolerable towards them. They also refute the authority of the High King of the Karaz Ankor over themselves, so big sweeping decrees from Thorgrim simply do not carry the same weight for them as they would for any of the rest of the dwarf peoples. They're a separate enclave/realm of dwarfs in a number of ways, albeit still connected as kin and blood and so on. One of the quest prompts is an Asur trader getting murdered in an inn within Kraka Ravnsvake, meaning that they're able to just go there, whereas you're much less likely to see an Asur trader allowed into Barak Varr, I would think.
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I think the Norse dwarfs were separated from the kraz Ankor are roughly the same time and same causes as those eastern dwarfs would become the chaos dwarfs were only the Norse dwarfs had fully established holds to take shelter in

predating the war of the beard they have no major enmity nor grudges with the high elves , they would also have an interesting relationship with the chaos dwarfs
 
NutMaster said:
In canon, this whole war against Norscan dwarfs seemed to be a Norscan affair. As this Valmir fellow seems to hate them more than usual for his folk. Later on he gets a promotion and good as emperor of chaos sounds, he never managed to be an everchosen so I presume rest of the chaos~y folk didn't care much about his war. I'm sure an average Kurgan wouldn't mind burning down a dwarf karak but this War in The Mountains seems more of a local affair.
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Mm, I would note that he was actually one of the only surviving lieutenants of Asavar Kul, the Everchosen, and so was a very powerful Chaos Lord besides. One of the few to fight free and cut his way back to Norsca. He uh, promoted himself to the title of Emperor of Chaos, and I presume also had some subordinate tribes and lesser kings in the course of that. His thing is that he pretty singularly targeted Kraka Drak, but then got entombed in there by King Silverbeard, and then spent decades fighting the dwarfs in there. As in, canonically, he was doing stuff in there right around after getting back from the GWAC, and then Kraka Drak was declared 'destroyed' or 'won' by Chaos in 2390.

So 2304 to 2390 of time for him to fight his way through one dwarf hold.

I'm presuming that his Emperor of Chaos name sorta didn't matter to many when he popped back out, because there were plenty of other Chaos Champions and Lords and Kings and also Everchosen rumors and so on, as he didn't seem to show up afterwards historically much as I can immediately find with a googling.

It has rather escalated from canon, admittedly, with Valmir ending up doing a lot more to actually establish his 'Emperor of Chaos' title than before by gathering others under his banner over a much longer campaign.

Andres said:
My understanding is that this whole thing was only ever an 8e thing, and doesn't mesh well with lore that's come before or since.
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Yeah, that's the 'fun' of it all. I'm fine with them having had contact now and again, off and on, with whole centuries going by without being sure if they were lost or not because the canal gets damaged or the forces of Chaos are a bit more active, dwarfs a bit more reclusive, etc. It allows them to have the ability to reconnect back out with the other peoples of the world, and the other dwarfs, and also keeps them having periods of 'hmm, not sure if they're actually still there' stuff that keeps Thorgrim reconnecting with them. Trying to mix and match I suppose. If the underground canal exists, at the moment it's too damaged to use, so...yeah. Still they've got a navy and what not.
 
As near as I can tell, he tried to play it off as 'oh, well, Asavar Kul was supposed to be the great undefeatable Everchosen, but he died, so clearly I'm better because I didn't ' except at the same time he couldn't actually BECOME the Everchosen, because the Gods didn't declare him such, and instead he had to try for calling himself the Emperor of Chaos instead, and then he managed to defeat one dwarf hold over the course of almost a century, and then...I don't remember seeing much else about him. Certainly, by the time that Archaon pops up, he's got his own lieutenants following him like Crom and so on, and I don't think Valmir was amongst them.

On the other hand, in DoDA he's been fighting all the holds, plus a bunch of filthy traitorous HERETICS, and has been joined by many others whilst compelling even more to follow him.
 
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