Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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NSMS said:
When it comes to trying to take a Black Ark, there is one factor working in our favour when compared to trying to storm a regular fortress: namely, that regular fortresses haven't normally just deployed and exhausted most of their troops in a ruinous battle literally immediately before you attack. Granted, we'd also have taken a ton of losses too, but fortifications are a huge force multiplier- every soldier manning a wall is worth multiple attackers, so losing defending forces in advance of the battle is disproportionately impactful.
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The flip side of that is that if even a tenth of the total druuchi force is still alive and on the 'walls' when we try to storm the grounded Black Ark... Well, they'll be fighting back with something at least within shouting distance of the power their full force would have when they were charging us into our fortified positions.

Sure, they'd be ten times more dangerous if they were all still alive, but then the job would be completely out of the question.

I think that at a bare minimum we'd have to take stock and dig in for an actual siege, if only to smash down gates and take down heavy weapon emplacements with artillery from a distance.

Of course, if the Arks can't get off the ground fast enough, then they are assuredly going to be hit from behind by the fleets coming for them, at which point the possibility of trapping them actually comes onto the table again.

It's just that I don't think we'll have enough left in the tank to be able to seriously contemplate storming the things, especially if they're grounded within mutual support range of each other.
 
@torroar
Why exactly is the stereotype of Frederick that of a dumb, sword-swinging brute? Sure, his diplomacy leaves something to be desired even at his current age, but the guy was never "just" a warrior, he's always been a leader, and any Elector Count has the final say on things like what tactics are used in a battle. He might be known for charging headlong into battle, flying into wild rages, and making extremely reckless decisions, but the man's stewardship accomplishments simply wouldn't have happened if he was as much of a dumbass as everyone seems to believe. Sure, they might be able to latch onto Natasha and say that she's the brains of the two, but Frederick has proven his intellect enough times now, with things like the Vapor Tank as a direct consequence of his own decision to buy the Soup Tank without his wife present, and countless strategic and tactical victories on the field of battle and elsewhere, many of which his family wasn't even there for, that I'm kind of shocked the belief still persists, let alone started at all.

I mean, medieval combat isn't just a matter of swinging your sword wildly until the enemy goes down, and in something like Warhammer, even less so. Someone who kills Skulltaker is less "dumb muscle" and more "lord of war" in my eyes. You don't get the skills to do something like that without an ungodly amount of training and discipline. And to do that, Frederick had to organize a massive expedition and coordinate with multiple other military groups just to get there, as well as navigate the minefield of human-Dwarven relations, lead his army through a good chunk of all the Greenskins and Skaven in the known universe, and footslog through an abandoned Dwarven hold for a year.

How exactly is this stereotype still around, and not dead in the water since at least Karak Ungor?
 
For another he's constantly drunk, buzzed or hungover. He's also blunt, sometimes very rude with his lack of tact, and is always willing to throw down with basically anyone, including the Emperor's own brother during an Electors Meet. Not exactly a sophisticated picture to paint.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
For one thing most in the Empire weren't at or believe all of Karak Ungor.
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I mean, it would be one thing if it was merely the Rumor Mill saying this, but people even in positions of power, sometimes even other Elector Counts, seem to keep falling for it, even though they know for a fact things like Karak Ungor happened. People who saw Frederick buy the Soup Tank and come out with the Vapor Tank years later somehow keep operating on the assumption that he's not an incredibly savvy politician just like themselves. At this point, I honestly have to wonder if this stereotype is something that Hagrid and Co. have deliberately cultivated, kept going, and let fester, just because it works to our advantage so often. Which I could understand and even support, honestly. I just have trouble believing it's still happening organically.
 
Annatar said:
For another he's constantly drunk, buzzed or hungover. He's also blunt, sometimes very rude with his lack of tact, and is always willing to throw down with basically anyone, including the Emperor's own brother during an Electors Meet. Not exactly a sophisticated picture to paint.
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To be fair, that's also the stereotypical image of an Ostlander, but you wouldn't expect your average Ostlander to permanently kill a Daemon Prince of Nurgle at the age of 18.

EDIT: Plus, you'd think the Emperor himself siding with Freddy so often would give him a little more credence when it comes to this. Magnus is a master statesman himself, and consistently supports most of what Freddy does and takes Freddy's side consistently at Elector's Meets. You'd think Starbrook might have thought not to poke that bear.
 
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People are often extremely willing to disbelieve contrary evidence to their own assumptions unless they have undeniable evidence shoved into their faces

It's just that simple
 
Simon_Jester said:
The flip side of that is that if even a tenth of the total druuchi force is still alive and on the 'walls' when we try to storm the grounded Black Ark... Well, they'll be fighting back with something at least within shouting distance of the power their full force would have when they were charging us into our fortified positions.

Sure, they'd be ten times more dangerous if they were all still alive, but then the job would be completely out of the question.
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Pretty much. That's why I said what I did in the second half of my post, that I don't think we'd actually be able to pull it off- it only takes the situation from 'actually impossible' to 'very very difficult', not 'reasonably achievable'.
Simon_Jester said:
I think that at a bare minimum we'd have to take stock and dig in for an actual siege, if only to smash down gates and take down heavy weapon emplacements with artillery from a distance.

Of course, if the Arks can't get off the ground fast enough, then they are assuredly going to be hit from behind by the fleets coming for them, at which point the possibility of trapping them actually comes onto the table again.

It's just that I don't think we'll have enough left in the tank to be able to seriously contemplate storming the things, especially if they're grounded within mutual support range of each other.
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Pretty much why I mentioned that we need a way in and that we're about to get chewed up even more, yeah. As I said, I wouldn't expect us to actually pull off storming one of the Arks, it's just that the losses and exhaustion the Druchii have already suffered and are about to suffer mean they're not quite so formidable fortresses as would normally be the case.
 
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I get the impression there weren't any Shackled in Nordland. Or at least, that the majority went to Salkaten.

Desperate crews tried to man the bolt throwers on their ships, but those same bolt throwers had been smartly targeted on by cannons early on in this final phase of the fight.
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Here's hoping that isn't foreshadowing.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
I mean, do they even want a navy?

I'm expecting those ships to be burned as offerings to Mathlann and Manaan myself.
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If the Eonir don't want them, the ravaged navies of the Trident definitely do.
The loss in nautical manpower is substantial. And even if the Eonir don't want the ship themselves, I can forsee the need for elven hands to handle the more delicate parts of the ships to maximize use.
I don't know if anything will pull the Eonir back into playing geopolitics, but this bloody stand against the Druchii will definitely be one of the largest pushes for longer term cooperation.
Redgamer026 said:
Running, skipping, burpees man they burn your body fat.
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They deplete your blood glucose. Which is why you get tired. You can burn more but you'll still be tired.
This is why keto/Fasting/Carnivore is so effective. You empty the glucose tank and activate the body's "refill from fat stores mode." Instead of "refill from digestion mode"
NSMS said:
Fixed.

The lengths of denial some people will go to...
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THe Halfling has a 2/10 relationship score with Freddy.
1/10 is "I will kill you even if we are on a sinking ship and I absolutely need your help to get off"
 
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I don't think that, these days, Frederick is truly considered to be dumb, but rather that people with a more negative view of him consider him as an eccentric/mad and ill-mannered brute, who can fight and lead men really well, and whose crazy ideas sometimes actually work, for some reason.

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Here's hoping that isn't foreshadowing.
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This is making me scared again! I very much was worried when our side lost that vote.
 
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Lerac said:
I don't think that, these days, Frederick is truly considered to be dumb, but rather that people with a more negative view of him consider him as an eccentric/mad and ill-mannered brute, who can fight and lead men really well, and whose crazy ideas sometimes actually work, for some reason.
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Quite possibly, after he went and broke the Starbrook thing open.

As is, people don't expect the madman to be sensible
(I.e, intelligent)
 
TehChron said:
People are often extremely willing to disbelieve contrary evidence to their own assumptions unless they have undeniable evidence shoved into their faces

It's just that simple
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Yeah. To give a good example, Emmanuelle von Liebewitz, the Elector Countess of
Nuln in Karl Franz' time, was once approach by a women who cried that her child was stolen by a beastmen and literally just laugh it off as an amusing story.

The Tome of Corruption said:
"I'm always surprised by the commoners. They have the most vivid imaginations. Just last week, I was visiting Wissenberg, a decrepit little village, when a weeping woman came up to my carriage. Before my guards could haul her away, she went on and on about the Beastmen stealing her baby. I would have been quite put out had it not
been for her amusing story. Beastmen! This far south? I think not."
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It's possible that people do recognise that Fred's intelligent, but fail to realise just how intelligent. The problems with the trade treaty, for example, weren't noticed by either of the other trident members- Stephan only noticed it after Fred brought it up, and Ortrud didn't see it even after he did. It could be that was 'merely' well hidden enough to slip past an intelligent person, not a genius (which Freddy is, according to his character sheet).
 
NSMS said:
It's possible that people do recognise that Fred's intelligent, but fail to realise just how intelligent. The problems with the trade treaty, for example, weren't noticed by either of the other trident members- Stephan only noticed it after Fred brought it up, and Ortrud didn't see it even after he did. It could be that was 'merely' well hidden enough to slip past an intelligent person, not a genius (which Freddy is, according to his character sheet).
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I mean Freddy has also cultivated a mask of a dumb drunken brute that doesn't know courtly courtesies. Freddy also doesn't really talk himself up, which lets him surprise people.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The flip side of that is that if even a tenth of the total druuchi force is still alive and on the 'walls' when we try to storm the grounded Black Ark... Well, they'll be fighting back with something at least within shouting distance of the power their full force would have when they were charging us into our fortified positions.

Sure, they'd be ten times more dangerous if they were all still alive, but then the job would be completely out of the question.

I think that at a bare minimum we'd have to take stock and dig in for an actual siege, if only to smash down gates and take down heavy weapon emplacements with artillery from a distance.

Of course, if the Arks can't get off the ground fast enough, then they are assuredly going to be hit from behind by the fleets coming for them, at which point the possibility of trapping them actually comes onto the table again.

It's just that I don't think we'll have enough left in the tank to be able to seriously contemplate storming the things, especially if they're grounded within mutual support range of each other.
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We just need to take the walls out of the picture. Good thing we have a gryphon that can dive bomb us into the middle of the castle.
 
Altom said:
Then we would have to face our scariest foe yet: J.R.R. Martin's copyright lawyers.

Torroar... PLEASE tell me this is not what you meant by "cardio"

So to make a 40k analogy Black Arks are like Battle barges? In that Imperium/druchii can make new ones but it takes all but irreplaseable resources combined with a lot of effort from best available experts and so actually doing it is all but unheard of?
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While I agree that making new Blacks Arks would be tremendously expensive in time and resources the scale and loss rates for 40K battlebarges means that I am sure they are replaceable at a much better rate then the Black Arks could ever be.

Fouredged Sword said:
You don't need to be faster to catch them, just cleverer or luckier to be in the right place at the right time. Being faster means if you find them catching them becomes inevitable. This isn't the case with black arks, as they seem to be able to disengage at will.

But yes. Here and now they can be caught. They are trapped in the Sea of Claws too, with the enemy navy between them and open ocean. The Sea of Claws has only one entrance and exit. Right now, at this moment, they could be caught unable to just sail away.

I was referring to the Asur navy trying to run down Black Arks on open water like they seem to be doing.
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I talking about the Black Arks that are being chased as they Retreat from Ulthuan which means they are vulnerable as their escorting ships will have suffered loses meaning that a Admiral of Asilin's caliber who is also blessed by the God of the seas has a could chance in my mind of sinking at least one of the ones he is chasing.
 
Frederick: "Why do people keep thinking I'm a dumb brute?"

Also Frederick: starts a brawl at the Elector Meet.
Also, also Frederick: sics the Witch Hunters on the Cult of Manann.
Also, also, also Frederick: doesn't bother thanking the other provinces that sent their aid during the Vampire War for a whole year because he's too busy knighting his personal Ogre.

I'm not going to say there aren't other reasons for it like Southern Empire bias or PR campaigns from his enemies, but the harsh truth is that Frederick's own actions has included enough Dumb Brute Things™ that his reputation for it isn't going to go away.

Even if he had his own reasoning for it, even if there's context behind those and similar events, it's not like the people are just going to know about any of that. Even if he made it up later on like he did with the Cult of Manann and the other provinces, the impression will linger.

As another example, that time we tried to fix his rotten reputation with the Ostland nobles only to critfail and get into a brawl and lose even more rep. It wasn't what was intended, but what is it that people will hear and remember about that event? That Frederick invited a bunch of his nobles to a feast only to beat them up.
 
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Cauldrons of Blood

"A Cauldron of Blood is an ancient artefact of the long-gone days when the gods walked the earth. It is a gift from Khaine, the Lord of Murder, and within it lies the secret of eternal youth and beauty. A bride of Khaine may bathe in the blood-filled Cauldron, and it renews her vitality and...
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Look at the size of that thing, just in comparison to the Witch Elves on it. And Harvesmuir knocked it clean over, divine protection and all, with one charge.
 
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Stewart9 said:
While I agree that making new Blacks Arks would be tremendously expensive in time and resources the scale and loss rates for 40K battlebarges means that I am sure they are replaceable at a much better rate then the Black Arks could ever be.
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As you have said- scale. Imperium has much much more resources and experts to go round. Even after adjusting for the setting.
 
Staff Notice: Rule 2: Do not use the term 'retarded' as a pejorative.
Genon said:
I mean, that's also fair.
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The main point is a difference in cultural perception. We know that Frederick is incredibly smart. Not just because of his Learning stat, but because of what he did with it. Learning several languages, engineering, etc.

That's not how intelligence was defined in medieval times. Intelligence was tightly bound to conduct. Behaving within the norms of society and adhering and honoring them. Frederick doesn't do that. At all. Never did. It's not just his lack of diplomacy, but also his (initial) lack of piety that played into it.

Not believing in gods (or a god) is just not done. It's certifiably retarded. Warhammer or real (medieval) world.

Honor, conduct and (partly) intelligence (at least for nobles) was not defined by creating new things, but by adhering to existing rules better than everyone else. A master scriptwriter was not supposed to find a new innovative way of writing, but to adhere to the set standards in the best way possible. That's not bad, it's just really different from today's standards.

Frederick very much adheres to modern standards. He's innovative, questions almost everyone and everything and deals in facts. That's not how these societies are. Not because they are worse or anything. Just a very different mindset.

Granted, Warhammer is a fantasy world, so a purely medieval world view does not apply to it. That's why Frederick is also respected. Especially in regards to his martial deeds. Common folk and nobles alike think that he's absolutely insane, but they can't deny that he dragged Ostland out of its insignificance. He just trampled over 1500 years of traditions whilst doing so.

So what if we had done this without our martial deeds? Nobles and commoners alike would have crucified us. Doesn't even need the Witch Hunters.

And that's why Frederick is seen that way. Because he not openly gambled with his own life, but also with his family's position to rule Ostland. It's his prestige that saved him and made him untouchable.
 
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