People are going to be salty if artillery rolls nat 100s and die. I still with you on the plan, but sometimes dices are fickle than the Chaos gods.
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That's fine? Just the shots are enough to disrupt cohesion, kill a bunch of people at range, fuck up some Warbeasts, and buy an opening for the cavalry to bite deeply into the Druchii units themselves before they can properly form up.
I never was under any illusion of this being a sustainable barrage in the first place.
The same principle largely applies, though. They cant be everywhere at once, we need to kill enough that the numbers we have can reach a threshold of that being sufficient coverage
That the threshold is lower than I previously expected doesnt change the core premise of my argument
If artillery rolls nat 100s then I'll gladly eat whatever criticisms come my way because the casualties thatll inflict will be stupendous
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Hold up. So who are you targeting? Witch elves/SoS? They won't be disrupted, they don't really fight in formations. Executionrs? They are in the back, frontline won't be affected too much. Rank and file? But they are the easiest for us to handle in melee. Everyone at once? But we don't have the firepower for such an unfocused volley to do meaningful damage.
As for our heroes, they won't have to be everywhere at once. Only at the spots where our troops are giving way, and there should be enough of them for that.
Okay, it appears that I need to make this clear then.
The Flagallants go first, and force their way into the ranks of the Shackled before blowing up, and opening a corridor for the Cavalry to charge through
This runs into the hinted at issue of the Druchiis spear users forming up and forming a shield wall that, when combined with the remaining warbeasts, will possibly stymy the charge or at least force them to maneuver around it before they can hit the less armored Druchii elite infantry, thus minimizing the damage they can do.
However. A shield wall does present a very cohesive, attractive target for bombardment. Which our artillery can take advantage of to inflict damage, along with our ranged defenders to essentially force the backline of the Druchii infantry to space themselves out to avoid presenting an easy target.
Which means that this would let our cavalry bite very deeply into the Druchii lines, maintaining the full power and momentum of their initial charge, and trampling a shit ton of Druchii infantry before they can form up and make their way back towards the open gates.
All the while artillery and gunfire continue pouring into those Druchii lines, exacerbating the issue.
That's how this would play out with the initial couple of volleys, and it would be incredibly effective. By that point the armored Shackled should be so diminished as to no longer be a factor, and the Druchii would be unable to muster a large enough force to pin our cavalry behind their lines because our artillery will actively punish any such concentrations of force.
It's not about shooting randomly into the lines, it's about all three(four?) elements of our defense compounding to punish the Druchii for forming up like this.
Which is why I'm putting so much confidence in this maneuver. Against a lesser siege, this kind of move would straight up break a siege line quite ruinously.
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Ok but your plan relies entirely on the artillery even managing to get off those volleys and do that damage, something that the enemy artillery is in a perfect position to prevent entirely. This just feels like too much of a gamble when we could just take a moment, put the artillery on counterbattery for a bit, and then center them on the enemy lines once the enemy artillery isn't set up to destroy us. Hell, your plan could still be effective if we swapped the artillery for the umbrella shooting ogre archers. Their arrows should be plenty capable of breaking that shieldwall that you're expecting and opening the way for the cavalry. The Ogres are completely untouched, and in a perfect position to play linebreaker over our artillery, which is painfully diminished, as you've stated, and would be put to better use, at least temporarily, on countering enemy artillery to ensure the success of all our other units, such as our fliers and men on the walls.
So for reference, these three elements are our principle obstacles to inflicting meaningful damage to the Druchii in general. The Flagellants can absolutely deal with the Shackled, I've no doubt about that at this point.
If we do not use the artillery on the other two elements, the Cavalry will need to expend their effort on them before retreating. Not a pointless showing, but much less than it could be.
But if the artillery are hitting those other two elements, the cavalry have a much easier time forcing their way through and getting in range to do meaningful damage. Cavalry charges by Knights in full plate against an unprotected line are unironically army killers.
I'm not expecting that kind of performance here, but I am hoping for something good regardless.
Behold.
Stupid diagram 2: 2 stupid, 2 diagrams
Not included are the flagellants and Fredericks positioning.
Stupid diagram 2: 2 stupid, 2 diagrams
Not included are the flagellants and Fredericks positioning.
No they wont, because the opportunity will pass and we lack the weight of numbers for a truly withering counter barrage. Your alternatives rely on even more lucky breaks than my own proposal does, and even then the threshold for luck on my end is "our artillery even gets a chance to matter in the first place".
Which I'll gladly cop to, but that just makes the urgency I keep harping on in terms of using them all the greater.
Also, there isnt an option for choosing the disposition of the Ogre archers. Nor would they be able to arc their shots with that kind of reliability and accuracy without spotters coordinating them.
Our ogre archers would be horribly exposed if they climbed up on the walls, and lack the coverage to survive sustained fire without sufficient defenses in the way. Our artillery have their own nested positions and bolt holes to fire from, as well as being much more portable.
However, this all assumes that enough flagellants and Cavalry would manage to reach and break through those lines, which might be hard if the DE Bolt throwers destroy most of them before they can actually reach DE lines. Even if our artillery would do some damage to their shield wall, it won't be of much help if our flagellants and Cavalry have lost too many troops to take advantage of it. If both our artillery would target the opposing side's infantry/cavalry, the DE Bolt throwers would destroy the units of our side much more quickly than we could do theirs. Their bolt throwers mowing our troops down, would also mean that those feared DE melee-units would be able to reach our walls much quicker -even they would have some losses-, which, as you mentioned, is something you want to avoid.
And if part of their artillery would target ours, then we might have traded the rest of our artillery for some damage to their shieldwall, which matters much less for them if they can then inflict grievous damage on our troops with their Bolt Throwers, while we won't have long-range counterfire any more.
Our artillery should destroy theirs first, so that they, our flagellants and our cavalry will then be able to inflict damage on Druchii lines without being destroyed by their Bolt throwers first. Only after that should we focus on their infantry with our artillery.
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You forgot the Dark Pegasii as well.
And to do that theyd need to shoot through their own lines first, which would be really really good for us regardless.
Because then our artillery and defenders get uninterrupted time to lay down their own barrage, and they can afford those kinds of losses less than we can.
You and several others keep presupposing that we only need a single round of artillery dueling to wipe out the Druchiis own artillery and that strikes me as absurdly naive?
How long do you think theyve been playing this game against dwarves and even humans? Artillery is ubiquitous across the planet. They know how to drag artillery duels out.
They also know that this is a winning exchange for them because their infantry are their win condition, and closing to scrum let's them leverage them best towards that end.
With our artillery being our best answer to such. So each round that sinks into a collapsed chunk of wall or other defense is one that isnt taking Druchii lives. That's a winning exchange for them.
They know what they're dealing with here.
So we should respect that they are prepared to not one sidedly lose an artillery duel against us
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Depending on the sources Torroar draws upon, Repeater Bolt Throwers are magically enchanted to fly faster and hit harder than they should, or simply somehow so well-made that they're comparable to gunpowder weapons.
Oh my, yes. Powerful magical enhancements (Ghrond) or even potentially bloody blessings by furious Gods or Goddesses are often laid down upon the bolts utilized in the Druchii Bolt Throwers. Multiple different effects, for certain, depending on the ammo used. Some anti-light infantry, some are full on siege weapons meant for breaking fortifications open.
You are right in that hoping that our artillery would destroy theirs quickly is somewhat naive. That would only be a true best case scenario. Nevertheless, I believe that it still is more worthwhile for our artillery to at least damage their and keep them busy, for reasons explained in my first post in this thread, as well as below.
Your own strategy seems naive to me as well. It supposes that: Our artillery damages their shield wall heavily > Flagellants break through the Shackled > Cavalry can break through the shieldwall.
However, nowhere does it mention what their bolt throwers would do at that same time.
What might happen instead is the following: Our artillery damages their shield wall heavily > theirs destroys much of our flagellants and cavalry quicker than we damage their lines > our troops cannot truly -or just barely- break through the Shackled lines > DE shield wall is damaged but stands > Flagellants and Cavalry lose much more quickly due to losses to Bolt Throwers > DE troops can get to our walls more quickly (on which the troops then might get surpressed by DE Bolter Throwers).
Also, the troops which are the best for Scaling the walls, e.g. Witch Elves, would be mostly unharmed by our artillery fire, as they don't stay together.
In other words, if the artillery of both sides target each other's units, that will not be a winning exchange for us, but for them.
However, if our artillery focuses on theirs, our own ranged units can still weaken their infantry lines, while not being surpressed by DE Bolter throwers.
EDIT: And after finishing this post, I just saw Torroar's comment of DE bolts being enchanted with nasty effects, which makes them even more dangerous.
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Now I want the bolt throwers destroyed even moreso before they fuck things up. They probably have homing capabilities for shooting down monsters and Natashas riding monsters.
Anath Raema blessings anyone?
Anath Raema blessings anyone?
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Because they could be doing a lot of things. The general expectation is that whatever they hit they're going to do a number on, with suppressing our own artillery batteries being their best move.
If they hit our defenders on the wall? That's fine as we have plenty of reserves left. If they hit the Pegasii? Less fine, but our gunners and archers are effective against them regardless. If they hit our Flagellants and our cavalry? More than fine, because that's a trade we can afford. The Flagellants are intended to absorb losses from the start, and shooting through their armored Shackled to cull our Flagellants is a fantastic outcome for us even if it's not the ideal case scenario I outlined previously.
Either way, in two out of four of those scenarios we have the remaining wall to absorb ballista shots and serve as cover, with a third scenario still being good for us, and only in the fourth option do we begin experiencing an equal blow.
Because in three of those four scenarios, our artillery gets a free hand to reap the Druchii infantry. And only in one of them does my hoped for scenario for the cavalry charge not have a chance of happening.
It's a fantastic trade, especially if the artillery manages to survive the next round and can be put towards suppressing the enemy bolt throwers in turn once theyve become more exposed along with the Druchii infantry
Did you miss the part where I explained that the primary goal there was to enable the cavalry to trample the less armored Druchii in the back of their lines?
Those guys will get fucked if the cavalry manage to make it past the Dreadspears and War Beasts.
Hand gunners and human archers arent breaking through Hydra regeneration or Dreadspear armor. Artillery might, but not the alternative
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To me the choice boils down to whether we want the fortification intact, or do we want the attackers which breach the fortification to be reduced?
This does feel very consequential.
This does feel very consequential.
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There might even be a risk that her blessings, and Khaine's, in particular might be more potent since we recently horribly pissed both of those gods off in some way, the Orion shit with Anath, and...mostly just existing, I guess, with Khaine, to the point that his favorite little stabby boi is here for our head.
In the absence of the majority of Warbeasts and with most of the Shackled wiped out save for their most elite fodder, the Druchii dont have the resources they previously did to break down the wall with. But they can climb it. Letting the wall serve as ablative hp is the best possible use we can get out of it now that we have the Druchii elites in stabbing and shooting range
With regards to divine blessings, those are equal opportunity for the infantry as well as the artillery, given the presence of the Cauldrons and Witches.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. That's part and parcel of why this round of the fighting was always about trading blows in the first place.
The only luxury we have is that of choice
If they hit our walls, I am quite sure they will not focus on our normal defenders but our artillery instead, of which we do not have that much reserves left.
If they hit our air forces, they might not just take out our Pegasi, but they might heavily wound/kill Oskana and Natasha (Torroar just said Druchii bolts can be enchanted with a lot of nasty things.) And remember, they still have one dragon left, if Oskana and the Pegasi are down, it can swoop in again and have free reign over our defences. We have seen what it did to our artillery, and how useless our Gunmen and Archers were against it.
Concerning Bolt Throwers having to shoot through their own units, @torroar, could you tell us if this truly would be the case? Could you tell us what Frederick, Anna and Sadrina would know about it, based upon all their available knowledge, as well as the view they have from the walls? They should be able to know if, and how, the DE Bolt Throwers could attack our flagellants without harming their own units. We have seen how fast Frederick, and Anna, can do battlefield calculations.
EDIT:
Torroar just mentioned that Druchi can actually enchant their bolts to do heavy damage to fortifications. In other words, they probably have a decent chance of doing a lot of damage to our walls.
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Aside from hax enchantments their artillery is primarily anti-infantry. We have an excess of crew for our artillery so even if they did attack our artillery our artilleries effectiveness will not be degraded till our buffer is removed.
Might they reduce the impact of the flagellants?
The benefit of the Flagellants is always gonna be reducing the final Shackled buffer between our defenses and the Druchii elites. So long as those get cleared out in the process of their usage, then they will have made a fantastic impact.
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Yeah but since this is Ghrond, Morathi's home turf, it's gonna be nothing but hax enchantments out to screw with us, as per Torroar
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While they don't have as many warbeasts anymore, the bolt throwers themselves could blast holes in the wall, apparently. Didn't consider that before, but it makes them more of a priority to take out.
I doubt a lot of druchii can scale the wall very easily, but they won't need to if there are a bunch of holes.