Our artillery is not going to suddenly have no targets, they can hit the more rearward ranks. And please don't focus on this segment to the exclusion of the terrible damage they can wreak if unopposed.
We have walls for a reason, and I said this repeatedly. Dont act like out artillery succeeding is guaranteed either

The Druchii crews have the remains of the 5th wall to use for cover.

Giving up our biggest advantage to pursue neutralizing a minor contributor to the Druchiis offensive at this point is a massive waste at this stage. The enemy repeaters will always possess the approximate same level of threat to our infantry.

Our artillery will not benefit from the opposite calculus, especially once the enemy infantry reaches the walls.

You win fights by exploiting advantages, not by hoping your weaknesses arent taken advantage of
 
The enemy repeaters will always possess the approximate same level of threat to our infantry.
Our flaggelants and cavalry that charge through a narrow corridor and beyond the safety of the walls will certainly be more threatened.

Our artillery will not benefit from the opposite calculus, especially once the enemy infantry reaches the walls.

You win fights by exploiting advantages, not by hoping your weaknesses arent taken advantage of
How on earth is damaged artillery to the point of having a malus not a weakness to be taken advantage of?
 
Because inflicting mass casualties while they're on the advance is very much a "use it or lose it" opportunity. Our ability to inflict mass casualties is only going to deteriorate from here on out due to a number of factors, and that's our sole advantage against the stupidly high qualitative advantage that the Druchii possess over our own forces at this stage of the battle

Normal volleys wont even work either, due to magic armor and horse shit agility.

We need to blow them up. Theres no better option unless we somehow win the magical duel.

Your argument is focused on our artillery being set to die anyway, so why not go out in a blaze of glory, but it doesn't account for the Druchii artillery countering our own and just immediately removing it after maybe like, a single volley into their troops, invalidating the whole point of your plan. We focus on the artillery for a turn, hopefully destroy it, then our fliers and artillery can focus on enacting Druchiicide completely unmolested. Why would we let them hold onto the massive advantage that is artillery without even trying to stop it. I was agreeing a bit with you yesterday but after sleeping on it some more, it really is just terrible planning to let their artillery sit around untargeted. That's the kind of shit I bank on the WH3 AI doing when I play, and following that example seems ill-advised
 
If things go well, we go on the offensive, if it turns out less than ideal then we can at least hold at the gate to slow down the elite druchii infantry and cavalry.
...What?

We arent going to win against the Druchii by drowning them in bodies before their Witches are taken out. Even without more large scale magic, so long as the blood cauldrons exist we'd be drowning in our own blood if we tried a serious push like that.


Answer me this please: they focus fire their rapid firing semi-enchanted ballistas on our artillery crew, and now we have no artillery and they're still killing our forces, only now they're able to do so with a much greater degree of safety. Where does your desire to kill them as much as possible fit in that?
You're joking, right?

Either the artillery crews suppress ours. Or the dragon does when it gets back. Or the Dark Pegasii do. Artillery duels only suppress one vector of taking our artillery out, it doesnt even suppress the most important one (the dragon)

Did you not read my posts at all? I've been over this.

I keep saying that this is about exploiting our artillery to their utmost before their sell by date. After this next phase theres going to be no reason to focus the artillery on the infantry anymore due to scrum, range, and lack of coverage regardless.

Like Cordwood isnt demanding a commitment for the rest of the battle, it's about exploiting the Flagallants, the charge, and the massed infantry approach to inflict maximum damage for the opportunity that we have it for.

Our flaggelants and cavalry that charge through a narrow corridor and beyond the safety of the walls will certainly be more threatened.
Pretending that the suicide bombers and the sally have realistic chances of avoiding mass casualties under any circumstance is highly deceptive of you, Eva.

Fact of the matter is, if those repeaters are firing into our literal explosive chaff, that's a great trade for our artillery crews.

Their infantry are objectively worth many many times more than our own at this stage

How on earth is damaged artillery to the point of having a malus not a weakness to be taken advantage of?
Because so long as they can blow shit up before it can butcher our infantry at a rate of dozens to one then it's an advantage.
 
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We have walls for a reason, and I said this repeatedly. Dont act like out artillery succeeding is guaranteed either

The Druchii crews have the remains of the 5th wall to use for cover.

Giving up our biggest advantage to pursue neutralizing a minor contributor to the Druchiis offensive at this point is a massive waste at this stage. The enemy repeaters will always possess the approximate same level of threat to our infantry.

Our artillery will not benefit from the opposite calculus, especially once the enemy infantry reaches the walls.

You win fights by exploiting advantages, not by hoping your weaknesses arent taken advantage of

There are no guarantees, but saying the enemy repeaters are the same threat regardless of circumstances is ignoring context.

The enemy repeaters are less likely to succeed in killing what they're aiming at (whether it's our infantry, cavalry, or artillery) if they're under artillery fire rather than unopposed.

Until you have artillery superiority the point of artillery is to match and counter the enemy's so they can't leverage theirs against the rest of your troops, which allows your other troops to do their jobs without being turned into pincushions or chunky salsa.
 
Either the artillery crews suppress ours. Or the dragon does when it gets back. Or the Dark Pegasii do. Artillery duels only suppress one vector of taking our artillery out, it doesnt even suppress the most important one (the dragon)

But we have counters to the dragons, as shown by Roland and Oskana and co.'s success against the dragons (lack of Freddy may reduce their ability to kill said dragon 1v1, but if Roland assaults the dragon with them then it's probably toast) while their Dark Pegasi, as you pointed out to me yesterday, are being kept busy by our own mostly undamaged contingent of Pegasi Knights + Roland and Oskana (and I'd say they can probably handle the Dark Pegasi by themselves, at least for a bit, if the heavy hitting fliers have to deal with the dragon). Their artillery is the only thing able to attack our own artillery unmolested, unless of course we get into an artillery duel
 
We focus on the artillery for a turn, hopefully destroy it, then our fliers and artillery can focus on enacting Druchiicide completely unmolested

This. This right here is absurd. Our fliers are at a huge disadvantage right now in terms of numbers and in terms of enemy quality. If the dragon returns and doesnt fuck over our artillery it's going to fuck up the Pegasii instead.

None of this is going to be a walk in the park. The Druchii are in a position to retake control of the fight very, very easily.

There are no guarantees, but saying the enemy repeaters are the same threat regardless of circumstances is ignoring context.

The enemy repeaters are less likely to succeed in killing what they're aiming at (whether it's our infantry, cavalry, or artillery) if they're under artillery fire rather than unopposed.

Until you have artillery superiority the point of artillery is to match and counter the enemy's so they can't leverage theirs against the rest of your troops, which allows your other troops to do their jobs without being turned into pincushions or chunky salsa.
We have artillery superiority though. And we have cover as well. Moreover. Your argument only holds true under circumstances of assuming that the scrum isnt an automatic loss condition.

Moreover the logic you're referencing takes for granted that an infantry charge will not take place before such suppression is in place.

Neither is true here. The Druchiis win condition is reaching the walls in force. So we need to prevent that preponderance of force by any means.

But we have counters to the dragons,
If Oskana and Natasha are focused on the Supreme Sorceress. If the ground based hero units are focused on Dreadbringer.

No one will be available to stop the dragon immediately without splitting off from the existing fights.

That takes time. And the Dragon doesnt need much time to fuck over the artillery. We can win without the artillery if the numbers are brought closer to parity, but not if those numbers arent.

I'm accounting for damage we're going to eat regardless, which is why I'm treating the artillery as a sacrifice play.
 
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Tehcron may be a obnoxious about how he presents his points, but his reasoning is solid. The Druuchi infantry will only be in a window where our artillery can hit them for a short period of time. They are elves, they move fast. If we focus on the enemy arty they will be able to reach our walls and begin attacking the gates or scaling the walls unmolested (baring a good roll by the flagellants, they could utterly botch things with a low roll and become a speedbump).

In melee the Druuchi infantry will rip our tired troops into pieces. We need them bloodied before they ever reach us. And rare is the Witch elf that can dodge grapeshot. Those murder blenders definitely need to be shot prior to entering melee.

The more ranged assets we have focused on them, the better.

[X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror
 
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This. This right here is absurd. Our fliers are at a huge disadvantage right now in terms of numbers and in terms of enemy quality. If the dragon returns and doesnt fuck over our artillery it's going to fuck up the Pegasii instead.

None of this is going to be a walk in the park. The Druchii are in a position to retake control of the fight very, very easily.


We have artillery superiority though. And we have cover as well. Moreover. Your argument only holds true under circumstances of assuming that the scrum isnt an automatic loss condition.

Moreover the logic you're referencing takes for granted that an infantry charge will not take place before such suppression is in place.

Neither is true here. The Druchiis win condition is reaching the walls in force. So we need to prevent that preponderance of force by any means.


If Oskana and Natasha are focused on the Supreme Sorceress. If the ground based hero units are focused on Dreadbringer.

No one will be available to stop the dragon immediately without splitting off from the existing fights.

That takes time. And the Dragon doesnt need much time to fuck over the artillery. We can win without the artillery if the numbers are brought closer to parity, but not if those numbers arent.

I'm accounting for damage we're going to eat regardless, which is why I'm treating the artillery as a sacrifice play.

Ok, so we ignore their artillery, and then whoops, Oskana has a bolt through her wing and that's two heroes and a mount dead, and the SS unmolested. And then whoops, a few more bolts and our Pegasi are brought down without being able to inflict losses on their own fliers. Then a few minutes later we have bolt upon bolt crashing into our cannoneers, then our infantry, as the Druchii take away our advantages due to their artillery being completely ignored when we have a counter sitting right there.
 
Ok, so we ignore their artillery, and then whoops, Oskana has a bolt through her wing and that's two heroes and a mount dead, and the SS unmolested. And then whoops, a few more bolts and our Pegasi are brought down without being able to inflict losses on their own fliers. Then a few minutes later we have bolt upon bolt crashing into our cannoneers, then our infantry, as the Druchii take away our advantages due to their artillery being completely ignored when we have a counter sitting right there.
Alternatively the Executioners and various Elves reach the walls in force then use supernatural dexterity to vault up them via climbing on non existent handholds and embedded ballista bolts where they descend on the defenders and butcher them en masse, rolling up our actual defenders and swarming the walls via snowball effect.

One of those scenarios sucks but can be reacted to, the other is a flat out loss condition.

So yes, I'm choosing to risk your scenario- however unlikely it may be as a worst case scenario. Because the alternative is very much worse.
 
Ultimately folks the concern is what target is worth the effort.

The Druuchi are not renowned for their mundane artillery. They are famous for their powerful magics, monstrous beasts and incredibly deadly infantry.

Two of those are being countered or depleted, the deadly infantry is what's left. Focus on depleting it.
 
The deadly beasts will be getting countered as well by the artillery barrage. The beastmasters have already shown a determination to use them to tank artillery shots, so Like Cordwood has serious odds of finishing off their available Warbeasts as well, which gives our Superheavies more room to flex themselves
 
Alternatively the Executioners and various Elves reach the walls in force then use supernatural dexterity to vault up them via climbing on non existent handholds and embedded ballista bolts where they descend on the defenders and butcher them en masse, rolling up our actual defenders and swarming the walls via snowball effect.

One of those scenarios sucks but can be reacted to, the other is a flat out loss condition.

So yes, I'm choosing to risk your scenario- however unlikely it may be as a worst case scenario. Because the alternative is very much worse.

One good volley of cannonfire and their artillery is down for the count imo, as hunks of burning metal crash through wooden ballistae and dark elf flesh, and then the next few volleys can be tossed into the Druchii horde without worry. And I doubt the Executioners, decked out in heavy armor, can just climb up our walls like spiders. The only ones I'd expect to do that are the Witch Elves, and that's a small (if dangerous) chunk of Elf compared to the greater horde of generic Druchii soldiers + Executioners. And yeah, the Druchii are more renowned for their beasts, magic, and skilled warriors, but artillery is still artillery firing into our various units unmolested. My worst case scenario seems far more likely than your worst case scenario in my opinion.
 
Alternatively the Executioners and various Elves reach the walls in force then use supernatural dexterity to vault up them via climbing on non existent handholds and embedded ballista bolts where they descend on the defenders and butcher them en masse, rolling up our actual defenders and swarming the walls via snowball effect.
The problem I see with your aguments is that you appear to believe that the elves have no capacity for absorbing casualties. But we are facing 2 Black Arks. Those have been described multiple times as floating cities. Even if the elves are a minority on board we can still expect thousands of them is not tens of thousands. In which case our artillery, already diminished, and most likely facing counter battery fire, will not be able to do enough damage to substantially reduce the power of initial assaults. It may reduce the number of such assaults they can pull off, but the power of those assaults would remain the same.

Furthermore I believe you substantially overestimate the ability of elves to climb walls, especially dwarf made walls in full gear.
 
Why are we doing the fear mongering act again? I can understand some concern and worry, but this is getting f****** stupid even for me. And I love the dumb stupid stuff!

Their is way to much concern of the overpoweredness of DE, and us and the rest of our men. And while a good part of it is true, the rest is just spiraling out of control.
 
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One good volley of cannonfire and their artillery is down for the count imo
Much like your other assertion of the inevitable aerial dominance of our Pegasii despite being out numbered and outarmed in the air, I find this assertion to be baselessly optimistic.

So I dont put any value in conclusions drawn from that basis, I apologize.

The problem I see with your aguments is that you appear to believe that the elves have no capacity for absorbing casualties.
After we reach a certain threshold, that is the case. And all available evidence indicates that we have drawn incredibly near said threshold. They are down to their chaff that they spent money on, and are fielding their actual elites. If these guys bite it, then we're going to reach the point where a scrum isnt an inevitable loss condition, and we can press our own numbers to worthwhile effect.

I believe that the Like Cordwood plan will push us over that tipping point, or at least put it within immediate reach.

Edit: My hope is that this will be enough to create cascading advantages, but even if it's not it let's us better leverage our own advantages as well anyway
 
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This. This right here is absurd. Our fliers are at a huge disadvantage right now in terms of numbers and in terms of enemy quality. If the dragon returns and doesnt fuck over our artillery it's going to fuck up the Pegasii instead.

None of this is going to be a walk in the park. The Druchii are in a position to retake control of the fight very, very easily.


We have artillery superiority though. And we have cover as well. Moreover. Your argument only holds true under circumstances of assuming that the scrum isnt an automatic loss condition.

Moreover the logic you're referencing takes for granted that an infantry charge will not take place before such suppression is in place.

Neither is true here. The Druchiis win condition is reaching the walls in force. So we need to prevent that preponderance of force by any means.


If Oskana and Natasha are focused on the Supreme Sorceress. If the ground based hero units are focused on Dreadbringer.

No one will be available to stop the dragon immediately without splitting off from the existing fights.

That takes time. And the Dragon doesnt need much time to fuck over the artillery. We can win without the artillery if the numbers are brought closer to parity, but not if those numbers arent.

I'm accounting for damage we're going to eat regardless, which is why I'm treating the artillery as a sacrifice play.

If you completely ignore the enemy artillery, then any supposed (I'm not so sure of that, but for sake of argument...) current artillery superiority won't last long or matter that much to our crews and troops as they're butchered. If our fliers get the magic support they need (which will also be helped if the enemy repeaters cannot take unopposed shots at our fliers as well) then with any luck that will let us control the skies and free up our cannons. But until then, I'd prefer the enemy repeaters to be kept at the least occupied.

The scrum outside the last wall isn't an automatic loss condition. It's rather the point of the flagellants to run up to the druchii and then blow up.

We prevent the druchii reaching the last wall in force by letting the flagellants do their jobs. It doesn't matter how dexterous the druchii are if they run into a mobile mine field that will set itself off. The explosions and shrapnel will soften them up for the cavalry.

But that falls apart if their artillery takes out our cannon crews and then turns on our ground forces.

We still have troops on the wall to defend the crews against any climbers (which as others pointed out should be limited to the witch elves) in the worst case. The bulk of the druchii that get through to the wall, if any, will have to do so at the gate.
 
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Long time lurker here, who decided to join, because he is worried about where the vote is heading.

Tehcron may be a obnoxious about how he presents his points, but his reasoning is solid. The Druuchi infantry will only be in a window where our artillery can hit them for a short period of time. They are elves, they move fast. If we focus on the enemy arty they will be able to reach our walls and begin attacking the gates or scaling the walls unmolested (baring a good roll by the flagellants, they could utterly botch things with a low roll and become a speedbump).

In melee the Druuchi infantry will rip our tired troops into pieces. We need them bloodied before they ever reach us. And rare is the Witch elf that can dodge grapeshot. Those murder blenders definitely need to be shot prior to entering melee.

The more ranged assets we have focused on them, the better.

[X] Like Cordwood, Stack Terror

The question is, though, whether their melee troops will do more damage to our important units than their artillery. In my opinion people underestimate just how dangerous those Reaper Bolt Throwers can be right now: not to our walls but to our units! While their bolt throwers probably are weaker against walls than our artillery, in many other aspects they probably outclass our own. They are very accurate, their fire-rate is insane for artillery, and they are strong against both infantry and heavy units, such as Ogres or Gryphons(!).

If we do not attack their artillery, there are at least three ways in which they can damage us tremendously:

1) They focus on our charging Flagellants, mowing most of them down before losing many of their melee units. To make things worse, they might be able to use their accuracy to focus on those Flagellants carrying explosives to do even more damage. In other words, this will probably lead to our Flagellants doing little damage to their melee untis. Remember, Flagellants are weak to ranged attacks and need to engage in melee to do any damage.

2) They focus their fire on the whitewings and Oskana, which are our only air units. This, together with with their own still large airforce, has a good chance of destroying our air force, which could lead to them achieving air supremacy. Even if we have killed 2 of their dragons, remember the damage that final dragon was able to do, when facing off against our Ogre Archers! If they achieve air supremacy, even if we might not be doomed, we will still incur tremendous losses! This also has a good chance of Natasha and Roland being killed!

3) They use their very high speed and accuracy to focus down our own, weakened artillery, who, while focusing on the DE infantry, cannot respond in time quickly enough. Even if our artillery has the high ground, I don't think that is worth much against the accuracy of Reaper Bolt Throwers, whose crew probably also has years of experience. In other words, this might lead to us losing most of our own artillery as well as them achieving artillery supremacy. Which allows them to completely focus on doing 1) and 2).

Even if our artillery damages their melee units to some degree, I think our losses would still be much higher than their, because, due to the abovementioned reasons. We would be challenging DE artillery on their strengths, not ours.

I also think the amount of damage the Druchii would take, would be far from enough to make them retreat. Remember, one of their leaders is Tullaris Dreadbringer, especially if he is the Khainite assassin (and therefore tasked by Khaine) to kill Frederick. He probably will not retreat until Frederick is dead, or almost the complete DE force is destroyed. As others have mentioned, this is not a DE raiding run.

Therefore, TLDR: I think it is much better that our artillery will focus theirs down first, which will give our flagellants the chance to survive longer and do much more damage to their melee units; make it more probable for our air units to survive and prevent the DE from achieving air supremacy; and give our own artillery a higher chance to survive.

Therefore I Vote:

[X] Unleash the Martyrs, and Stand at the Gates!

Even if I would rather have Frederick stand on the walls, I find the alternative of Like Cordwood, Stack Terror, and gambling on DE backstabbing and Morale, to be much more dangerous and risky. Remember, during this invasion, going for the risky options would so far probably have led to much worse results. We would have lost much more units to the charge of Black Arks, and without Kerillian, Frederick might have lost to Caledor's Bane.

So, to any of you who have voted for Like Cordwood, Stack Terror, please, change your votes to Unleash the Martyrs, and Stand at the Gates!
 
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I'm imagining those elite 99 Eonir Warriors fighting alongside us and witnessing the BS that's Ostland on the battlefield.

Ostermark troops: "First time?"

Boy they must be enjoying seeting their demented cousins being forced out and killed by mayflies. Surely helps their egos, what with what would have happened to their home without Freddy and his Greatswords/Ogres.

We haven't seen these Elite guys yet, no?
 
The scrum outside the last wall isn't an automatic loss condition. It's rather the point of the flagellants to run up to them and then blow up.
This is the last wall, though. And the Druchii elites have far superior wall climbing ability.

Moreover, the Druchii have entire lines of armored Shackled and Warbeasts left with which to absorb the Flagellants. The Flagellants simply arent going to penetrate very deeply into the Druchii themselves. They lack the numbers and staying power.

We'll be counting on the cavalry charge to make a dent there, if one is to be made at all outside of the artillery.

I'll say it again: there isn't a scenario where we can avoid losses. It's about trading what we can afford to lose for what the Druchii cannot.

Even if we lose our Pegasii, outside of the Dragon Rider the Druchii aerial assets can all die to massed gunfire so it's not a critical issue so long as the magical elements are checked or otherwise dealt with first
 
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After we reach a certain threshold, that is the case. And all available evidence indicates that we have drawn incredibly near said threshold. They are down to their chaff that they spent money on, and are fielding their actual elites. If these guys bite it, then we're going to reach the point where a scrum isnt an inevitable loss condition, and we can press our own numbers to worthwhile effect.
Bolded part is where we disagree then. We are facing the elven part of the garrisons of two Black Arks. Those forces have only taken incidential damage. They are bound to be able to take some beating before casualties start reducing their effectivenss. And I doubt our artillery's ability to inflict such a beating in their current state.
And the Druchii elites have far superior wall climbing ability.
Now that is something that has to be proven, not just asserted.
 
Bolded part is where we disagree then. We are facing the elven part of the garrisons of two Black Arks. Those forces have only taken incidential damage. They are bound to be able to take some beating before casualties start reducing their effectivenss. And I dound our artillery's ability to inflict such a beating in their current state.
There is nothing else capable of doing so on hand. Its either the artillery, or betting on the scrum which really isnt a good idea

Now that is something that has to be proven, not just asserted.
"Supernatural agility and dexterity" kind of speaks for itself?

We just saw Elves freely walking on that dragon. Even if that's an exaggerated, high end example climbing up a wall is a much lower bar to clear
 
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This is the last wall, though. And the Druchii elites have far superior wall climbing ability.

Moreover, the Druchii have entire lines of armored Shackled and Warbeasts left with which to absorb the Flagellants. The Flagellants simply arent going to penetrate very deeply into the Druchii themselves. They lack the numbers and staying power.

We'll be counting on the cavalry charge to make a dent there, if one is to be made at all


However, the Flagellants do have those carrying explosives among them, which probably will do much more damage to DE units if they can actually reach DE infantry, instead of beeing mowed down by Reaper Bolt Throwers.

As I have mentioned above, Druchii artillery is much more anti-infantry than ours. If we would target anything but their artillery right now, it would a match of which side's artillery would do more damage against enemy infantry and heavies. Which the anti-heavy and anti-unit Reaper Bolt Throwers would probably win handily.
 
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