Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Kinda funny how different the strategies are between Ostland and Nordland, with us forting up on coast while latter is totally abandoning it. It fits given different situations, but still funny.

Stephan hasn't built up coast nearly as much as us over the years so can easily afford evacuating most of population into interior of province without losing very much, and it plays to defensive plan to ambush/harass invading dark elves who have to land and come inland to do any reasonable damage. Of course since the forces attacking him are just the attending fleets of black arks they are very unlikely to have any large army units, being mainly built up of corsairs at most. Once they hit the forests they are gonna have a really bad time since wood elves coming to Nordland's aid can really pick them off as they try and force themselves into Nordland.

Meanwhile we have built up coast, especially its main city, and always knew that black arks were most likely gonna be coming for us since we have the Arcane Fulcrum in Ostland and the dark elves would need to deploy armies to take and hold it. So our plan is to be as tough a nut to crack as possible and stall dark elves so they can't go inland to harm province until dwarfs and/or high elves arrive to help drive them off without attending fleet to defend them.
 
*sees all this discussion on Strigoi*

@torroar

Ever thought of doing a Strigoi quest?

It will be hard as balls, but i think it could be fun.
 
mmgaballah said:
yeah , no , they can't capture the Fulcrum and hold it since its in the middle of imperial interior and far from any support that could arrive from the coast , the worst they can do is target the high elven R&D staff stationed there but they are not taking the Fulcrum with any expectation of keeping it
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They can hold it long enough to fuck with the Fulcrum/Deny it to the Asur. Two Black arks can carry many many troops.
And with it in their control, they very well will have the power to make it extremely costly to try and retake.

And look. They use slaves to mitigate the risk of arcane blowback right? Yeah. They're going to be casting with wild abandon.
Or they might just open a gate to the realm of chaos and leave.

Yeah. Even assuming you're correct and they don't stay, there's rather large chance they're going to nuke Ostland/the Trident HARD.
Restalaan said:
*sees all this discussion on Strigoi*

@torroar

Ever thought of doing a Strigoi quest?

It will be hard as balls, but i think it could be fun.
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Again I have a spin off idea!
Kain from LOK! After the events of Defiance finds himself in WHFB and is adopted by a wandering Strigany caravan! How will our cerebral and eternally determined vampire lord face a world that is both more and less crapsack than his own!?

Pontential locations
Sylvania-Fun with fellow vampires. Eat your neighbors!
Brettonia- Fun with uberknights and silly peasants! Less centralized power.
Empire- Fun with fanatics! Get ready to be chased from town to town! Find and eat Chaos cults, Lahmians protecting their turf.
Tilea- Fun with Ratmen and free enterprise!
Kislev- Why???? Its cold and
Border Princes- For extra drama and battle!

Kain will be immune to Chaos and resistant to holy and Nagash because of his role as the Guardian of Balance.
His other resistances and weaknesses remain unchanged

I'm debating whether to let him keep the Soul Reaver or not.
One of the plot points would be to chase it down as it travels from enemy to enemy that are trying to unlock it's secrets.
Chasing it down as it is passed from the hands of vampires, inquisitors, necromancers, dark elves, maidens, and other darker creatures.

It is also his only hope of returning home as it is attuned to his plane of origin.
 
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I'm not sure the thread knows this, but did you know that the Asur have a diplomat in Everpeak?

She's seems quite important too, since canonically, when the Druuchi abducted her, they sent an army into Dark Elf lands to get her back, lead by Tyrion.

The Asur and the Dawi strongly dislike each other, but even without humans sandwiched between them, they are willing to collaborate.

Only for a few decades at a time, but still.
 
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torroar said:
snip
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It's interesting to consider what you wrote about Ushoran with what's written about him in Liber Necris. In Liber Necris Manfred repeatedly portrays Ushoran as a talentless and incapable man compared to the other progenitors. Not the brilliant and beautiful scholar as Neferata was, not the peerless warrior that Abhorash was, not the incredible mage that W'soran was nor the charismatic and sweeping man that was Vashanesh.

Manfred claims that the only talents that Ushoran had was that he was possesed of a truly impressive physical frame, being in possession of an enormous amount of physical strength and stamina and of a somewhat witty tongue, but little else. As an adult Ushoran was relegated to the position of essentially organizing parties for Neferata's court every once in awhile, the only time he would manage to somehow impress his guests being when he would perform some trick of physical prowess for others to see.

Manfred also states that Ushoran was possessed of a severe sense of inferiority for this reason, to the point that even as children Ushoran would constantly bully his sister due to his own insecurities and jealousy.

In particular Manfred notes that the reason why the Blood Dragons also persecuted the Strigoi after the fall of Strigos was because Abhorash himself personally despised Ushoran. The reason for that was that while they had still lived in Lahmia when Abhorash tried to argue for temperance among Lahmia's vampires and to limit their feeding to only those "worthy of death" many of Lahmia's immortal aristocracy simply ignored those laws and did as they will and none did so more brazenly then Ushoran himself: "In this respect Ushoran was the worst offender of all, earning himself Abhorash's undying contempt." By the time of his rule of Strigos Ushoran had come to agree with Abhorash's decrees: "As ruler of Mourkain, Ushoran made certain that he did not repeat what he saw as the mistakes of the Lahmian court. He bade that his vampires only drank from those who deserved to die - criminals, enemy captives, and the like." But of course by then it was far too late for Lahmia.
 
Imperious said:
Manfred
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An alternative interpretation for a lot of this is that, Manfred, the pettier and inferior Carstein, just has selective memory.


The Superior Vlad von Carstein
(Also called Vashenesh)
-Almost conquered the Empire once, only lost after being stabbed in the back by Manfred followed by two feats of extraordinary skill and courage.
-Happily married, adores his wife.
-Worked alongside a mortal man in need, teaching him magic and in the process creating one of the foundational texts of necromancy.
-Substantial claim to Elector Count of Sylvania, inherited from his father in law.
-Uncontested dominion of his holdings.
-Well liked by the common folk, protected them from monsters and brigands, lent aid to fight the skaven.
-Name is cool, memorable, IRL cultural significance.
-The progenitor of the Von Carsteins, legacy and legend head and shoulders above his kin.

VS

The Inferior Manfred Von Carstein
-Was defeated by mortal men, killed in mundane fashion by Runesword.
-Never even entered the dating pool.
-Doesn't have friends either.
-Betrayed the rightful ruler, needed to reconquer Sylvania in a civil war.
-Does not command great loyalty from his nominal vassals.
-Tyrant, abuses and preys open the miserable and apathetic peasants, doesn't lift a finger for their wellbeing.
-Read his name, needed a second to remember who he was.
-Keeps getting compared to his Sire, always comes off second best.
 
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Shine said:
Manfred, the pettier and inferior Carstein
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Very true:tongue:
Shine said:
An alternative interpretation for a lot of this is that, Manfred, the pettier and inferior Carstein, just has selective memory.
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Could be. Liber Necris is meant to be a lore book explaining much of how the undead came to be to the reader, but it's made clear from the start that the story teller is an in setting person rather then some omniscient narrator.

That said, it would give a reason as to why the Blood Dragons also joined in the hunt for the Strigoi. There does appear to be a grudge there.

torroar said:
But as I said, the Strigoi are interesting to me specifically because of their divergence from their Progenitor. Because the traits of Ushoran - welcoming other vampires openly and desiring them to join in a wonderful society where they could rule freely, fiercely protecting their people and raising them up so that they could be part of a glorious prosperous empire, intelligent, dutiful and serious in their governance as lord protectors and keepers of the law. Their maddest ones that fully lose themselves still believe in things like noblesse oblige. And a shit ton of physical power, as in strongest physically often even when compared to most Blood Dragons.
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Liber Necris also portrays this in a very different light. When Ushoran took over Morkhain the other bloodlines are stated to have all decided to live in hiding at the time out of fear of reprisal from Nagash for their earlier betrayal. Furthermore Manfred also elaborates that the other vampires treated Ushoran's invitation to live in Strigos with contempt because at the time they had already known that Ushoran had managed to come into possession of Nagash's hand and Nagash's crown with which Ushoran could control them, and so viewed Ushoran's invitation as a poorly concealed trick meant to turn them into his slaves.
 
Shine said:
An alternative interpretation for a lot of this is that, Manfred, the pettier and inferior Carstein, just has selective memory.
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Just checked up Night's Dark Masters and it too repeats that Ushoran was the worst offender in Lahmia when it came to feeding of the city's citizens: "Abhorash drew up a great charter for the vampire lords of Lahmia, so they might follow his example and honour their noble duties, whatever their needs, but the first children mocked and ignored his charter, particularly the pompous Ushoran and resumed their lust and decadence."
 
Imperious said:
Just checked up Night's Dark Masters and it too repeats that Ushoran was the worst offender in Lahmia when it came to feeding of the city's citizens: "Abhorash drew up a great charter for the vampire lords of Lahmia, so they might follow his example and honour their noble duties, whatever their needs, but the first children mocked and ignored his charter, particularly the pompous Ushoran and resumed their lust and decadence."
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Change of heart or enlightened self interest?
 
I've added to the potential character sheet for Oskar I made, just quoted posts where I shared more character details and the model I made for him.
 
Cheap Orange Knofe said:
Change of heart or enlightened self interest?
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If you look at the Night's Dark Masters description of the Strigoi bloodline, it has such phrases as: "It was not enough they had drunk the Elixir of Life and became immortal. They still had to find more ways to feel superior over others, to exclude their equals from their little cult. It was this childishness of the queen that led her to prevent her younger brother, Prince Ushoran, Lord of Masques, Celebrations, and Festivities from drinking the Elixir and joining the True Blooded—her petty need to keep somebody out of her elite cadre."

"In order to teach her a lesson, and claim only what he was due, Ushoran stole her precious Elixir and entered into that same state of great un-life without her help."

"Just as Ushoran cared not for the exclusivity of the Vampire cult, he also did not share their fear of Nagash. Whilst the other First Children ran far away to the north and hid from the world, the courageous Ushoran sought out a place to build a new kingdom where he could make manifest the dream of Lahmia—but free from petty squabbling and foolish politics."

You get the sense that the narrator is someone who holds very favorable opinions of Ushoran himself.

Having read both the Liber Necris description and the Night's Dark Masters description of the rise and fall of Strigos, I think the best way to reconcile the two is to think of the latter as a description made by a loyalist among Ushoran's Strigoi of those events, and the former as a description of the other bloodlines (specifically that of Manfred von Carstein) of those events.

To his Strigoi Ushoran was a visionary who was done a great wrong by not being given a sip of the elixir by his sister, an injustice which he had merely corrected by managing to take a sip from it instead. Following that Ushoran was the only one among them with the courage to step into the light and establish his own domain rather then cower in fear of Nagash, following which he generously made a good faith offer to his fellow vampires to reign alongside him, only for them to spurn him and lash out at his great realm out of petty jealousy.

To the other bloodlines Ushoran was a talentless meathead whose only ability of note was being able to throw a ball hard or lift something heavy who was not offered a sip of the elixir simply from the fact that unlike the other progenitors he wasn't good enough for one as well as the progenitor that most examplified the hedonism that brought about Lahmia's ruin, whose decision to found his own kingdom, motivated by folly and the sense of inferiority that he had always carried towards the other progenitors was now putting all vampires at risk of Nagash's wrath and whose offer of residence in Strigos to the other bloodlines was a poorly hidden attempt by him to enslave the other vampires with Nagash's crown and hand.

What is the truth? Was Ushoran's decision to take over Strigos bravery or folly? Was Ushoran a visionary who saw a different vision for vampire kind or a petty manchild motivated by a harsh inferiority complex pushing him to try to upstage his more talented and capable peers? Was Ushoran's offer to the bloodlines truly a good faith offer to join him or a brutish and obvious plot to enslave them with Nagash's powers? That is perhaps to be left to the reader to decide on as to what they think is the more likely explanation.

Night's Dark Masters repeats that Ushoran was the worst offender in terms of hedonism in ancient Lahmia, but that's actually mentioned in the Blood Dragon bloodline description.
 
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That's an interesting way of looking at the two texts, though I'm not sure if I'd use the same interpretation. Night's Dark Masters, to me, reads as a psuedo-OOC descriptor, because it certainly doesn't shy away from criticizing/emphasizing the faults/monstrosities of the other Bloodlines in their own histories. Yes, Ushoran is noted to have delved into the hedonism and such as well, in both texts, but I find that the NDM descriptor appropriate in that it notes

'As well, the queen saw at last her chance to get her revenge. She slaughtered Ushoran's messenger and at once spread rumours to the other bloodlines, assuring them that Ushoran either meant to enslave them all, or worse, sell them out to the reborn Nagash. After two hundred years of living with their guilt over abandoning their master and their fear of his revenge, the Vampires had grown bitter and insular. Each bloodline blamed the others for their betrayal and scattering but was prevented from acting on this because of the taboo against harming their own kind. When Neferata gave them a target and a reason to break this pact, the pent-up fury of the other bloodlines exploded in an orgy of violence. They sent mortal armies and Vampire assassins to that kingdom to destroy the interloper once and for all.'

I can 100% believe that Neferata was petty/angy enough that her younger brother was doing that, and that she was the one who spread rumors of him wanting to do this and that.

The reasoning, for me at least, is that the Liber Necris text is specifically noted to be an in-character creation, as opposed to the more OOC nature of NDM. And, furthermore, that all of Mannfred's knowledge of the events are based on his own research/interviews(heh)/etc. And I can easily believe that, after all the thousands of years since, the exact knowing of what went down and why has not only become obscured by the mists of time but in the memories of the vampires themselves. With enough time, I'm sure many of them are fully convinced with utter conviction that Ushoran was going to try and enslave/betray them all. Because I think that Neferata could definitely aid in that, from all that time ago.

"Of course Ushoran was going to betray us, he stole the Elixir of Life, he was never meant to have it in the first place!"

Stuff like that. History, given certain timeframes, is still somewhat malleable even with those who are ostensibly free from the clutches of time. And I, personally, don't think Mannfred is actually nearly as old as the progenitors or their initial 1st and 2nd Gens - and mostly that Vlad waited a good long while, because it's noted that it was him, personally, who was killing the fleeing Strigoi and not his descendants because I don't know if he had any around that time yet. I think that makes him all the more dangerous, that he was sired later - but still directly - and happened to have the talent/will/ambition to grow further from Mannfred the Acolyte to his full more dangerous greater self. I don't think Mannfred was around when Strigos fell, or in the most immediate centuries afterwards, is all. Which makes his research and stuff all the more interesting, because it's what he's found, and what he's decided is the correct history given that the Liber Necris is somewhat supposed to be him 'putting it all straight' or whatever. Because at the same time, I'm quite sure that every other major vampire equally is perfectly certain of what they know history is, and how it all went down, even if all their perspectives are quite likely different from one another.

Anyhow, I do definitely think it's a mixture between it all. Ushoran was not some perfect pinnacle of morality, that's for sure, he definitely did the hedonism and slaughters and what not on the regular before Lahmia fell, and even afterwards decided 'I should conquer these free peoples because I think I can rule them better', so, you know. And as I mentioned earlier, most all Strigoi still believe in their royal right to rule and dominate, but then most vampires not of the Mahtmasi and Necrarchs sort of have that impulse. Well I guess Blood Dragons don't care as much about that so much as domination through martial excellence, but even then it's a bit wiggly and goes towards them wanting to prove worthy of Abhorash, and no one can be entirely sure what that guy's real long-term plans were.

Because, you know.

End Times.
 
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torroar said:
Well I guess Blood Dragons don't care as much about that so much as domination through martial excellence, but even then it's a bit wiggly and goes towards them wanting to prove worthy of Abhorash, and no one can be entirely sure what that guy's real long-term plans were.
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In actual fact he just wanted a holiday from his zealous followers, and to sunbathe a lot on his mountain.
 
torroar said:
Anyhow, I do definitely think it's a mixture between it all. Ushoran was not some perfect pinnacle of morality, that's for sure, he definitely did the hedonism and slaughters and what not on the regular before Lahmia fell, and even afterwards decided 'I should conquer these free peoples because I think I can rule them better',
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Specifically Ushoran, at least according to Liber Necris, took over an existing kingdom. According to Manfred, after killing Nagash, Alcadizzar wandered across the south, badly injured by the Fellblade with which he had killed Nagash until he had thrown the Fellblade away and with the Great Necromancer's crown in hand, until he eventually collapsed, drowning in a river, crown in hand.

Alcadizzar's washed up corpse was found by a group of nomads lead by a Shaman by the name of Kadon. When Kadon found Alcadizzar's corpse, he took Nagash's crown from it and soon after became little more then a puppet to the crown's will. Kadon would then order the creation of a village by his group of nomads, which would later be known as Morkhain, the future capitol of Strigos. Eventually under Kadon's influence the people of Morkhain came to view Nagash as their god with Kadon as his prophet. Kadon would later go on to find not only Nagash's crown, but his severed hand as well a powerful artifact in its own right.

Years later Ushoran would come upon Morkhain. Seeing Nagash's hand and crown held by Kadon, he came to the understanding that the great necromancer had died, and that consequently, he had no need to fear him or live in hiding anymore.

Demonstarting his powers of necromancy, Ushoran managed to convince the people of Morkhain that he was none other then a messanger of their god, Nagash, himself and proceeded to establish his own power base in Morkhain until he eventually couped Kadon and made himself king.
 
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It's interesting how someone associated with Nagash and death would come to create an apex spell of Ghur. Perhaps it was the nature of the Badlands at the time, a very primal place where the Savage Orcs would gather.
 
Shine said:
The more I learn of him, the more I'm coming around on Ushoran.
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The exact wording used being: "The kingdom was under the rule of Kadon, who bore artifacts that Ushoran recognized as belonging to Nagash. This revelation shocked Ushoran, but as he pieced together the story of how Kadon came by these artifacts, it became clear to him that Nagash must have died. Now he would forge this kingdom into a truly powerful nation with him at its head with no fear of reparation by the now destroyed Nagash."

According to Manfred it was also these artifacts that were the reason why the other bloodlines distrusted Ushoran's offer for them to come to Strigos, as with them, Ushoran could control them as Nagash had.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
It's interesting how someone associated with Nagash and death would come to create an apex spell of Ghur. Perhaps it was the nature of the Badlands at the time, a very primal place where the Savage Orcs would gather.
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It's a different Kadon.

Kadon the Necromancer was killed by Ushoran, Kadon the Shaman who created the Transformation of Kadon and the Scrolls of Binding used his titular spell too much and forever locked himself into his new form.
 
Blackout said:
It's a different Kadon.

Kadon the Necromancer was killed by Ushoran, Kadon the Shaman who created the Transformation of Kadon and the Scrolls of Binding used his titular spell too much and forever locked himself into his new form.
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Mmm, well it would make more sense to be a different person, yes. Though nitpicking a bit, the bolded is a theory.
 
It was also mentioned in quest.
torroar said:
"Kadon was one of the greatest masters of magic in the old days, able to transform himself into all manner of beasts from squirrels to giants, even to dragons," she informs you before a troubling look came across her face. "Until one day, he either could not or simply did not turn back. None know if he even still lives in the form of a beast, or if he was hunted down one day without the ability to reveal his true nature."
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