Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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If we ever get that pirate quest back again, can we play as Luthor Harkon and his merry dead band of pirates instead?

Playing as the dark elf disguised human was cool, but that snip was cooler.
 
A Small Note On Mallus Human Psychology/Casualties
  • Informational
    • Cgce said:
    I am new to this but i have a few things that i dont like:in medieval times archers were usseles against knights in platemail or soldiers who had steel breastplate and the crossbow was only slighty more efficient that that but only from short distance.they were best from walls or behind fortification.so why in your quest archer are good against heavly armored enemies or crossbowman are good in open without any fortification?
    Platemail was one of the best armour in medieval times so why your soldiers and knights fall so easily?
    In medieval times a victorious army suffered maxim 15% casualties from an open battle.The worst casualties were suffered when the army run from the field.even with the level of care avaible they lost very few soldiers if they won.You make the victourius army of human and dawrf suffer so many losses from a sense of fair play or what?
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    Okay, so. Orc Arrer Bows can punch through plate armor because they are literally just muscular enough to do so, while thinking that they can, plus maybe painting the arrows red and black so they fly extra fast and kill extra hard. Which, also literally, can cause them to do just that. Goblin archers cannot manage the same penetrating power, but their arrows are more accurate, and often poisoned, covered in some kind of filth to cause visibility issues, or that can get in the armor. At the least, they can harry the enemy long enough for others to get into close range. Which is often what happens. Then you have to run into magical aid being granted by either pure arcane or divine sources, which can further buff such attacks. Same for Nehekharans, or Skeleton Archers, or what have you.

    And I swear I've talked about this before in-thread, or maybe in pms, or both. Hopefully, in the future if/when this comes up again, there'll be this post to be referred to.

    But you are applying Earth battle concepts to Mallus psychology, and that just doesn't work.

    Orcs, when they start attacking and chopping through guys, do so well enough that they shatter bones and thunk crude chunks of metal vaguely beaten in the shape of a sword into a person, they cut them apart. Earth human vs. human battles have low casualties because of their armor and human incapability to do the same. But here, orcs can. Goblins can climb up you and shank you through the gaps in your armor easily. Undead are tireless, and are harder to wound, and do not bleed, do not reel from shock, and will just hack at you until they drag you down to the ground to suffocate even if your plate armor protects you perfectly well from their attacks. Or maybe, you run into Chaos Warriors, who are strong enough and wield blades made so that they can stab through and cut through plate armor just fine enough, regardless of whatever toughness you can imagine steel plate armor to possess. Beastmen are equally considered to be, in some cases, so heavily matted and filthy - whether this is mundane or supernatural is up for debate - that they can have furred bodies able to withstand arrows and gunshots. And definitely strong enough to wield hammers and mallets and axes strong enough to kill a man if he takes a bad hit, plate armor or not. Shields help, armor helps, any inch of survivability helps, but it doesn't make one invulnerable.

    Frederick, the main POV character of the quest, has had his chainmail shredded, plates of armor repeatedly punctured, whole suits of armor rendered into little more than scraps of metal multiple times from the foes he faces. Sometimes that is due to magic, other times due to the sheer power of inhuman physiology being rendered against him. Frankly, the amount of healing he receives has done incredible work on the immense internal yet unseen damage he's sustained over his lifetime, because for every cut or stab or bruise he's possessed, I guarantee that the sheer impacts and worse that he's sustained over the course of his lifetime would have caused severe organ damage/failure and brittle bones due to so many repeated fractures/breaks. If not for the Jade Wizards and other measures, that is.

    But lets return to psychology. I appreciate you bringing in the percentages there, and the mention that most casualties were won in the retreats. Here's the problem with that.

    Orcs keep fighting well past the point that a medieval Earth human army would retreat. They are far more likely to keep going, literally laughing as their smaller fellows are cut down, because they live to fight. They love it more than anything else in the world. Way after a medieval Earth, let's say Englishman, would scream and run, will an orc and a goblin keep fighting gleefully. Beastmen will grow further enraged, and are bestial - literally so - with added mentality differences caused by worshipping the Dark Gods who quite literally reward bloody sacrifice of yourself or others with power. And have visible and tangible proof of it, stretching out for thousands of years. The same goes for the worshippers of Chaos. To retreat is to shame oneself before the Dark Gods, who can, have, and will continue to punish those of their followers who do such things. Like, if a man calls for a retreat, he might well be suddenly transformed, screaming, into a Chaos Spawn as his soul is sentenced to oblivion for eternity. Then you have the undead, who will not stop until their controller decides to do so. Can you imagine that? Fighting and fighting and fighting, and growing thirsty, and hungry, and bloodied and bruised, but the skeletons and zombies and undead knights keep coming? Keep firing their arrows? Eventually, your shield arm grows leaden, and an arrow finds its place. A few will scatter against plate armor, a few dozen more? A few hundred? As you stagger in the mud and dust and bodies of the fallen - some of whom are getting back up with a baleful light filling their ruined eyesockets? Probability will win out, and the knight will go down. And you've also mentioned the whole 'level of care' for the victors. Great, there is only so much that can be done for a man who was struck in the chest by an eight foot tall orc massing six hundred pounds of obscene muscle dressed in black armor blessed by an orc shaman to hit even harder, the impact of said maul literally exploding the man's insides out of his shattered back and spraying all of his internals over his fellows. Even if that orc was then subsequently stabbed or hacked or battered to death by the remaining soldiers, who are on the winning side? That one guy? He ain't getting back up. People lose arms, lose their lives, and this is not Earth, where plague and such could be a major issue to the point of poor sanitation and things like that being responsible for more casualties than the actual fighting occasionally. No, here, the plague is sentient, and planted by servants of a God who wants it to happen, and can literally turn you into a daemon if you get infected wit hit, just as those in battle can have to fight people who are so blessed by another God who desires only bloodshed that the arrows they fire - should they strike you - cause your blood to boil out of your eyesockets and are surrounded by a fell crimson light that lets them penetrate not just through your full plate, but the man behind you as well.

    Then there's the Lizardmen, who are primitive in the extreme, whose javelins are thrown and poison darts are shot that can still take down not just daemons, marauders, pirates, conquistadors, but even Chaos Warriors as well in their unholy blessing-draped armors of black iron and poisoned steel? Far more hardy things than mere Imperial plate armor. Elves whose arrows are able to find your eye sockets, every vulnerable point, who might be tipped with special arrowheads that burn at your very soul even from striking your shield and armor, enchanted or blessed to slip through solid steel regardless?

    What, do you imagine, should be the response of humanity faced with such threats?

    Would they simply hope to retreat, time and again, and again, and again, because that's what medieval Earth humans would do if they suffered the level of casualties offered, no, forced by their enemies as a matter of course of living on Mallus? No. Because they can't. Because doing so, following what Earth's armies would do when faced with 10% or 15% or even 20% casualties, would ensure absolute and total destruction, every single time. Every. Single. Time. Trying to apply the old battle/acceptable casualty percentages of Earth cannot work on the planet of Mallus. It's been this way for humans for 2,339+ years. In Nehekhara, they were already fighting the dead and greenskins for even longer, against Lizardmen as well, and while they crafted enormous living statuary to help them fight, their legions of human soldiers fought plenty without them. On Mallus, a Priest of Sigmar can say that the Hammer God is with you, and when you fight, a nimbus of golden light will fall upon your weapons. A Priest of Ulric can, with nothing more than his breath and the blessings of the Wolf God, blow out a freezing blast that can freeze the enemy solid long enough for soldiers to cut these new sculptures apart before they can warm.

    And they will fight on long past the point where Medieval humans would flee and break, because to do otherwise would be to surely die. And as such, they will win, because they remain, and they fight on, amongst the bodies of their brethren and their foes, because that is how you have to fight. Are there battles where less than 10% are lost when winning? Sure. Of course that still exists. But to expect that every time? It just doesn't work on this planet, against these enemies, for so long. Humanity is supremely adaptable, and after so many years, with magic and Gods and powers aplenty, to think that they would break when you posit just doesn't work like that. Not on Mallus, at least. So they have to fight back, and they have to stand their ground, and they have to keep fighting that long and that hard, accepting the casualties that come with that, because to have any chance at victory rather than simply an endless stream of losses fading into the Empire's outright disappearance and death? They have to fight that long.

    And to address the falling so easily portion? Sometimes, yes, they fall to surprise, to poison, to foes that can simply overwhelm them, and 'fall easily'. But they don't fall easily just because they are weak in body or mind, or their armor is not as strong as it would be on Earth, or their training is not up to snuff - though it is possible for all three to be true depending on the soldiers in question. Perhaps they are cowards, and so run and get a choppa or daemon-blade to the back, or the smith was greedy and made lower quality armor so he would retain more money, or they were hastily thrust into the field. But the others? Professionals and such? The knights?

    It is not that they fall easily to their enemies, it is that their enemies are that much of a threat. That their enemies are that strong, that willing to keep fighting to the last, refusing to retreat either because the concept is literally foreign to them or because they fear their Dark Gods consuming them should they do so, that their enemies are that blessed, that well-equipped, that magically aided.

    But the Empire stands, because its people refuse to back down, and to whimper their way into the grave. And, stubbornly, they'll keep fighting. They'll keep building their walls, training their soldiers, forging their weapons and armor, and will fight long past where a man of England or France or Spain would give it up, because they must. They have to, they have been, and they will in the future. To do otherwise would be to sentence oneself to the gallows, and not just themselves, but their brothers in arms, their families, their homes, their country. Do they still retreat? Yes. Can they break? Of course! They are human, not fearless space marines, and morale can strangle an army as well as any Nurgle's Rot or machinations of Tzeentch or distractions of Slaanesh or fear of Khorne.

    So...no. I don't make humans and dwarfs tally losses lightly, nor out of a sense of fair play. But because those just are the losses sustained in victory in this world. Sometimes, there will be victories were there are almost no losses at all, where victory is one with a perfect ambush or trap or something. But those are not going to be constant, common things.

    That's...just Warhammer to me.
     
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  • Informational
    • Dont you think you could research a new type of ammo for handguns and also a new type of firing mechanism?Like the musket of the napoleon era had,with paper cartrige who holds the gunpowder and a more efficiet firing mechanism.also you could introduce gelignite who is better and more powerfull then gunpowder.Also a new type of bullet to take advantaje of the new type of barrels for handguns and cannons.also a new type of shell for cannons for the same reason(new type of barrel + new type of bullet/shell = better distance and accuracy and power) and maybe a new type of cannon with breech-loading instead of the traditional type of loading.
     
    Cgce said:
    Dont you think you could research a new type of ammo for handguns and also a new type of firing mechanism?Like the musket of the napoleon era had,with paper cartrige who holds the gunpowder and a more efficiet firing mechanism.also you could introduce gelignite who is better and more powerfull then gunpowder.Also a new type of bullet to take advantaje of the new type of barrels for handguns and cannons.also a new type of shell for cannons for the same reason(new type of barrel + new type of bullet/shell = better distance and accuracy and power) and maybe a new type of cannon with breech-loading instead of the traditional type of loading.
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    No, because ideas don't appear just because we want them. Someone has to invent these things.
     
    Cgce said:
    Dont you think you could research a new type of ammo for handguns and also a new type of firing mechanism?Like the musket of the napoleon era had,with paper cartrige who holds the gunpowder and a more efficiet firing mechanism.also you could introduce gelignite who is better and more powerfull then gunpowder.Also a new type of bullet to take advantaje of the new type of barrels for handguns and cannons.also a new type of shell for cannons for the same reason(new type of barrel + new type of bullet/shell = better distance and accuracy and power) and maybe a new type of cannon with breech-loading instead of the traditional type of loading.
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    Could we?
    Technically yes, we could.
    The issue there is that we'd have to come up with those ideas in-universe, not just pull them out of our ass.
    It's easy to think of improvements when you know they exist and what they actually are. It's much harder to do so when you have to actually think and plan and test and build whatever new things yourself.
     
    Thanks for your reply.One thing that made me pause is the low level of tech and the snail pace of tech asvancement of the empire.i read all of the lore books and honesty for some people who are constanlty at war there rate of tech advancment is simply stupid.
     
    Cgce said:
    Thanks for your reply.One thing that made me pause is the low level of tech and the snail pace of tech asvancement of the empire.i read all of the lore books and honesty for some people who are constanlty at war there rate of tech advancment is simply stupid.
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    One thing to keep in mind is that tech advancement is also competing for funding with literal magic, religious or otherwise. Unlike in real life, where you'd be throwing all your money into researching new and better guns, the Empire has to decide whether to invest in the Colleges of Magic, who can make things explode with their minds (sometimes even themselves!), one of the several different religious orders that all will be upset if ignored (who can also sometimes make things explode, albeit with less risk), and actual mundane weaponry and equipment.

    It doesn't excuse the slow rate of advancement entirely, because in canon it's just silly how long it's been, but it at least has it make some form of sense as to why it happened.
     
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    Cgce said:
    I am new to this but i have a few things that i dont like:in medieval times archers were usseles against knights in platemail or soldiers who had steel breastplate and the crossbow was only slighty more efficient that that but only from short distance.they were best from walls or behind fortification.so why in your quest archer are good against heavly armored enemies or crossbowman are good in open without any fortification?
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    Uh dude, you might be looking at the wrong era.

    Medieval arrowheads can and do penetrate armor fairly regularly, the metal is not meant to STOP a missile, its meant to deflect it. A war arrow hitting a breastplate dead on is probably going to punch straight through, the main reason it doesn't is distance being murder on accuracy meaning that its going to hit at an angle, gouge a scratch in the metal, and then shatter or bounce off somewhere.

    And THEN the third arrow of the volley hits you in the arm, leg or helmet and you still go down to blood loss if it didn't actually drop you immediately. They're pretty hilariously lethal, the main issue with medieval archers is that without a pike or shield wall between them and the enemy, they had harsh limits on rate of fire, and if the enemy didn't cooperate and die nicely, they'd be overrun.

    Keep in mind that every arrow launched hits with the force comparable to a fully wound up two handed weapon strike. The archer has had time to apply their full body strength(both arms and back) to fully extend the bow, while properly arched, the arrow is going to hit with almost all the energy it was launched with.

    Armor heavy enough to shrug off arrowfire could be seen on elite heavy cavalry or infantry, and the price of it was pretty much enough to make it noble-only, or noble's retinue.
     
    Cgce said:
    Thanks for your reply.One thing that made me pause is the low level of tech and the snail pace of tech asvancement of the empire.i read all of the lore books and honesty for some people who are constanlty at war there rate of tech advancment is simply stupid.
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    I...okay.

    I'm gonna need you to go through the thread and, maybe using the search function and me as the user and the words 'tech' or 'advancement' or things like that, because I really don't want to write out the upteenth reasonings and issues with tech levels and tech advancement in this quest. Because it's come up. A lot. Like, a whole lot. To the point that I don't want to go into it again.

    Being new to this is great! Welcome to the quest, and to Warhammer, and such. But uh...there are some things that are sort of, if not intrinsic to the setting, then certainly debated to exhaustion in the thread.
     
    torroar said:
    I...okay.

    I'm gonna need you to go through the thread and, maybe using the search function and me as the user and the words 'tech' or 'advancement' or things like that, because I really don't want to write out the upteenth reasonings and issues with tech levels and tech advancement in this quest. Because it's come up. A lot. Like, a whole lot. To the point that I don't want to go into it again.

    Being new to this is great! Welcome to the quest, and to Warhammer, and such. But uh...there are some things that are sort of, if not intrinsic to the setting, then certainly debated to exhaustion in the thread.
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    I didnt mean your quest tech advancment(who is great) but that of cannon empire
     
    Cgce said:
    I didnt mean your quest tech advancment(who is great) but that of cannon empire
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    Well, they started off as, like, the equivalent of the Germanic tribes that Rome had to deal with. They've had gunpowder for only a few hundred years. They actually had things pretty good for a while, before the equivalent of the Black Death and a substantial amount of corruption and mismanagement brought an end to that golden age. Then they had a ~1,000 year civil war, which didn't help anything.

    Basically, don't think of it as one ~2,500 year period. Think of it as many periods, with collapses both large and small setting things back.
     
    Will you bring Ostland regiments of great swords(the black guard) back?They were awesome.Also maybe the emperor could marry(maybe a mage to both make people more trusting of magic and stop any other family to gain to much power).If Magnus The Pious marry,he will have the chance to create a dinasty,who if they arent complete idiots can bring a greater period of stability to the empire based on his deeds and maybe he could even ascend to god,maybe as a patron god to rulers(nobles and elector counts) and the imperial family,uniting the nobility even more.
     
    Z000 said:
    hm, if that is how that work then how does some one like Gwen work, she bless by Sigmar and she a vamp
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    Gods can still bless vampires, it's just...very rare, because vampires can't really contribute to gods through prayer/worship by themselves. So Sigmar was giving Gwen power, but Gwen wouldn't be able to give Sigmar power through prayer/worship at all.
     
    Doomed Wombat said:
    I am still not certain why humans are banned from Ulthwan.

    IRRC the proclamation banning them was aimed at Norscans, pirates and other people who...don't care about such things...

    You can probably lore in a reason, but well...
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    The main issues with humans as I see it:
    A) shortsighted enough that there would be some that would see the riches of Ulthuan and want to conquer/raid them,
    B) Even if a human kingdom didn't openly worship chaos, humans spawn cults like a rash. Compared to elves, humans are basically bedridden babies when it comes to resisting chaos corruption.
    C) Almost all human products are weaksauce; their food sucks and their art is pale imitation or outright insult to that of elves. The only reason they've started to "trade" with humans now is for gaining influence which they use to make humans more agreeing to their goals, and potentially boosting the economy of anti-chaos nations.
    D)Humans are comparatively shit.
    As is, human civilization across the world could be considered nearly barbaric at best when compared to an elf. They're also out-competed by elves in all things but force of numbers. Humans can't work, make or do anything at the same level as an elf, they simply lack the skill, precision and experience from farming to architecture. Their few accomplishments they've managed to reach before the elves are areas of expertise the elves don't care about, like gunpowder.
    They can't thus be used for their manpower in anything unless you want subpar work but in armies where their numbers is a valid resource. Even then, humans are so slow compared to elves that adding a human troop to an army of similar class (cav to cav, inf to inf) will slow them down, cutting their strategic mobility wherever they'd need to be deployed at.
     
    Cgce said:
    Will you bring Ostland regiments of great swords(the black guard) back?They were awesome.
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    We have our greatsword bodyguards, and that's it. I'm also not entirely clear if The Black Guard are actually canon (I think the last time it was brought up, the main source seemed to be the Warhammer mod for CK2?)

    Cgce said:
    Also maybe the emperor could marry(maybe a mage to both make people more trusting of magic and stop any other family to gain to much power).If Magnus The Pious marry,he will have the chance to create a dinasty,who if they arent complete idiots can bring a greater period of stability to the empire based on his deeds and maybe he could even ascend to god,maybe as a patron god to rulers(nobles and elector counts) and the imperial family,uniting the nobility even more.
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    I'm reasonably certain that Magnus the Pious has no intention to marry. (Particularly given that he's, what, 60 by now? 65?) Edit: 59 Apparently.

    Magnus the Pious is great, of course, but he didn't ascend to become a god in canon, and I doubt he'll do so here. If for no other reason than that the main cult that would support him already has a god (Sigmar). Maybe he'll become an Imperial Saint?
     
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