cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
Take as much time as you need. Your RL is more important then the quest.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
I really should write a thing about them though, they've been pretty overlooked
Um, funny you say thought cuz...who exactly are the TuP?
edit: nevermind found the relevant omake
I have to wonder how much this is actually going to be blocker.
Does the Federation actually have strict laws about this, or is it more of a matter of Councillors being unwilling to vote for ratification of a member with such opposing philosophies (which as an aside, has always been kinda confusing to me since IDIC is supposed to be a thing)?
I'm not a hardcore Trekkie that's watched all the movies and shows and books, so I don't know that many details of Federation government, and how much of United Earth's philosophy and rules have bled into Federation law itself.
As someone who has complained a couple times about your posts in the past, I feel obligated to say something. If people are having trouble with your posts, it's not because they're not [capable of] understanding it in detail, but rather that they don't have the patience to read through it critically. The amount of prose you're putting in to your posts is counter-productive, if it's not concise or organized enough to convince people that it's worth their valuable time to read it critically and determine what your key points are, what the supporting evidence is, what's hyperbole, and so forth. So, as tedious and unnatural as this might be for you, for posts you consider very important, you should consider spending more effort re-reading and playing essay editor before posting.
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aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm of the opinion that, specifically regarding the transhumanist/sapient question, if it ends up either the Orions changing or the Feds changing over it I'd rather the Feds be the ones to have their old conceptions shoved off.
Seriously the humans in Trek get a bit... weird, over personal alteration in a way I don't think is healthy for their society, and I'd rather they face that sooner than later.
Seriously the humans in Trek get a bit... weird, over personal alteration in a way I don't think is healthy for their society, and I'd rather they face that sooner than later.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@lbmaian:
I don't have a problem with what you've told me, which to boils down to the need to organize better. I don't mind the idea that I need to raise my standards.
I'm less inclined to listen, though, when I'm told to lower my standards of how thoroughly I need to explain myself, because people don't have the patience to listen to me. It's written text, after all, and no one has to read what I write if they don't want to. For me, writing out my thoughts and ideas and feelings is a big part of the joy of participating in something like this. If this is causing widespread complaint and discontent then I really should go find something else to do.
I don't have a problem with what you've told me, which to boils down to the need to organize better. I don't mind the idea that I need to raise my standards.
I'm less inclined to listen, though, when I'm told to lower my standards of how thoroughly I need to explain myself, because people don't have the patience to listen to me. It's written text, after all, and no one has to read what I write if they don't want to. For me, writing out my thoughts and ideas and feelings is a big part of the joy of participating in something like this. If this is causing widespread complaint and discontent then I really should go find something else to do.
- Location
- Patriarchova
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Okay. Bye.
- Location
- Australia
What the hell is going on?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[Checks other thread, sees this and that]
My apologies. After about three messages pointing in the same general direction, I lost the ability to take a joke on the subject. Simple as that.
Nothing of any consequence to see here. Move along. No cause for further concern.
My apologies. After about three messages pointing in the same general direction, I lost the ability to take a joke on the subject. Simple as that.
Nothing of any consequence to see here. Move along. No cause for further concern.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Lurking as I am, I was curious about a few longer ranged plans.
First and foremost, with the recent shakeup in our build plans thanks to the new parallel building bonus, have we determined what we want to do with our Consties? The refrain seems to be that we are crew limited over resource limited. Are we thinking about upgrading all our Consties, or "selling" them via the MWCO and replacing them with Rennies? I can see arguments either way (namely that, if we have the berths and resources, it would seem reasonable to just build Rennies as replacements for Consties; on the other hand, we may not have the +1OET to spare and would be better off just refitting the Consties we have on the theory that the hulls you have are better than the hulls you don't). @SynchronizedWritersBlock 's analysis post does not make me think highly of the Constie, that is certain.
Second, I don't think it's been discussed what we plan on doing with the Kepler exactly. How do we want to deploy them? Just take advantage of Forward Defense and deploy a Kepler per Border Zone? One per sector? Just have a few to split between SigInt and the Border Zones? etc.
(this isn't a post to try to redirect discussion at all)
First and foremost, with the recent shakeup in our build plans thanks to the new parallel building bonus, have we determined what we want to do with our Consties? The refrain seems to be that we are crew limited over resource limited. Are we thinking about upgrading all our Consties, or "selling" them via the MWCO and replacing them with Rennies? I can see arguments either way (namely that, if we have the berths and resources, it would seem reasonable to just build Rennies as replacements for Consties; on the other hand, we may not have the +1OET to spare and would be better off just refitting the Consties we have on the theory that the hulls you have are better than the hulls you don't). @SynchronizedWritersBlock 's analysis post does not make me think highly of the Constie, that is certain.
Second, I don't think it's been discussed what we plan on doing with the Kepler exactly. How do we want to deploy them? Just take advantage of Forward Defense and deploy a Kepler per Border Zone? One per sector? Just have a few to split between SigInt and the Border Zones? etc.
(this isn't a post to try to redirect discussion at all)
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Look, the point is Imma try to write me an omake or few about Star Trek Space Orion Batman, but I need help, so whatever all y'all think works best is good for me.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We want them in every sector, but due to our neighbors pulling shenanigans with cloaks we're going to prioritize the border zones for new science ships.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
they are going to be rather large utility ships for that, probably have to have some deplorable scaffolding and be able to do repairs in the field (not close to the front) could be useful investment to have, both to support the current fleet and in the case of war.
though we'd have to develop them, build them and protect them so the question would be... are they going to be cost effective?
At this point I think we are better off refitting them. Refits are a good way to 'cool down' between builds, allowing us to stockpile crew and resources for the next wave of ships. Chen's bonus allows us to build ships faster while still using the same amount of resources, which means we can't build more ships in the long run, only get them sooner*. And during the shortened builds we had less time to store up resources for the next set of builds.
However, the Ship Design thread has been saying that with the new sheet we might be able to get a superior Constellation refit that gives more bonuses than what we have been offered in the Snakepit at a higher BR/SR cost. If so, we should definitely consider that. If we could squeeze out a +P to go with the +C, +S, +D then it would be a huge benefit.
*Still extremely useful, though. Ships sooner means we can use them sooner. As Keynes said, 'In the long run we are all dead," so you have to value the short run.
Deploying them on the border zones sounds like a good plan to me. I don't think we'll build so many that we could have one per sector.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS
Constellation refits are a good way to use berth space to improve our forces without a large cost in resources or crew.
We expend:
+1 closer to Combat cap
10-20 of each kind of resources,
1 year of berth time,
0 crew,
In exchange we get:
+1 Defense,
+1 response to Combat events
+1 response to Science events.
A one-for-one replacement of a Constellation with a Renaissance gives a somewhat different calculation. Factoring in Chen...
We expend:
+2 closer to Combat cap
100/80 of bulk/special resources,
2.25 years of berth time,
1/1/1 crew
In exchange we get:
+2 Defense,
+2 response to Combat events
+1 response to Science events
+2 response to Presence events
Greatly improved survivability on Hull/Shield checks
[on any check where a Constellation has an X% chance of being destroyed by failing a Hull or a Shield check, and X is large enough to worry about without being large enough to doom the ship, a Renaissance will have a probability of destruction of more like X-20 or X-30]
THINKING ABOUT THE NUMBERS
Thinking this over, replacing a Constellation costs a LOT more resources, a lot more berth time, and a little more crew than refitting would. While we're sort of trying to save up resources for Ambassador construction in the long term, we're not too worried about that and I don't think resouces are the key factor.
And the crew cost is quite small, so in a real sense you get what you pay for- especially because that crew now occupies a tougher, more survivable platform. A large proportion of our overall crew casualties suffered from events have been a result of casualties taken by the fragile Constellations and Mirandas, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
The question is whether the replacement operation is worth the extra berth time. Because Chen reduces the berth time cost of building a Rennie from three years to (potentially) 2.25, her appointment drastically changes the equation.
The catch is that not all of our berths can achieve that 2.25 year build time, or not without very careful scheduling. Furthermore, we have to mothball the Constellation a year before the new Rennie leaves the drydock, so we have to be careful not to accidentally fry our Defense requirements during the transition.
RECOMMENDATIONS
All in all, my advice is to wait and see. It'll be 2315 or so before our crew pinch becomes really bad, and the exact degree to which we are pinched may depend on events between now and then.
As long as we have the pooled crew to build as many Rennies as physically possible up to the limit of our berths, it makes sense to do so, and to not retire Constellations. Our Defense requirements are still pretty strict, more ships is generally better than fewer. Plus, war with Cardassia or war between the Romulans and Klingons ae fairly likely possibilities. Which means we need to seriously bulk up our frontier fleets, which means diverting a lot of the new modern cruisers to those frontiers. Which in turn means that the Constellations are still needed to meet peacetime garrison requirements.
If/when we run out of crew, and given that resource costs are largely irrelevant, it starts making sense to retire Constellations to crew Rennies- with the notable exception of the Challorn, since we can't replicate the Blooded status of Challorn's crew in a new Rennie.
At a later date if we ever have surplus crew it might actually make sense to reactivate those Constellations, however, on the principle that more ships is generally better than fewer. Especially since the Constellations haven't shown any signs of mechanical unreliability, and a refit is likely to extend their service life dramatically.
However, we should still think seriously in terms of developing the Constellation refit, and refitting those ships, regardless of whether we mothball them. Improving their stats will make using them again at a later time more attractive if we have the crews available in an emergency. Likewise, the member world fleets will be significantly stronger if their legacy Constellations can be refitted.
Footnote:
The demands of laying down new Renaissances and Excelsiors at the pace permitted by Chen's special ability actually DOES start to cut into our resource pool. @Briefvoice has managed a plan that doesn't put us in the red on anything... but it DOES require us to make "pp for resources" requests in 2315, 2317, and 2318. Furthermore, it doesn't make allowances for the (unforeseeable) costs of building auxiliaries in the new Amarkia yard, and we spend a lot of time towards the end of the decade building low-crew-cost Centaur-As and (hopefully) low-cost Excelsior refits.
In other words, the sheer pace of construction under Chen puts us at very real risk of running out of both resources AND crew.
On the other hand, there are a lot of good things we can do for the fleet, even on relatively skimpy crew and resource budgets. Plus, our income and options will continue to grow over time, maybe even faster than Briefvoice's current projections believe. Since I gather that on the whole he's trying to be slightly pessimistic. That way, any surprises will hopefully be pleasant ones.
Constellation refits are a good way to use berth space to improve our forces without a large cost in resources or crew.
We expend:
+1 closer to Combat cap
10-20 of each kind of resources,
1 year of berth time,
0 crew,
In exchange we get:
+1 Defense,
+1 response to Combat events
+1 response to Science events.
A one-for-one replacement of a Constellation with a Renaissance gives a somewhat different calculation. Factoring in Chen...
We expend:
+2 closer to Combat cap
100/80 of bulk/special resources,
2.25 years of berth time,
1/1/1 crew
In exchange we get:
+2 Defense,
+2 response to Combat events
+1 response to Science events
+2 response to Presence events
Greatly improved survivability on Hull/Shield checks
[on any check where a Constellation has an X% chance of being destroyed by failing a Hull or a Shield check, and X is large enough to worry about without being large enough to doom the ship, a Renaissance will have a probability of destruction of more like X-20 or X-30]
THINKING ABOUT THE NUMBERS
Thinking this over, replacing a Constellation costs a LOT more resources, a lot more berth time, and a little more crew than refitting would. While we're sort of trying to save up resources for Ambassador construction in the long term, we're not too worried about that and I don't think resouces are the key factor.
And the crew cost is quite small, so in a real sense you get what you pay for- especially because that crew now occupies a tougher, more survivable platform. A large proportion of our overall crew casualties suffered from events have been a result of casualties taken by the fragile Constellations and Mirandas, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
The question is whether the replacement operation is worth the extra berth time. Because Chen reduces the berth time cost of building a Rennie from three years to (potentially) 2.25, her appointment drastically changes the equation.
The catch is that not all of our berths can achieve that 2.25 year build time, or not without very careful scheduling. Furthermore, we have to mothball the Constellation a year before the new Rennie leaves the drydock, so we have to be careful not to accidentally fry our Defense requirements during the transition.
RECOMMENDATIONS
All in all, my advice is to wait and see. It'll be 2315 or so before our crew pinch becomes really bad, and the exact degree to which we are pinched may depend on events between now and then.
As long as we have the pooled crew to build as many Rennies as physically possible up to the limit of our berths, it makes sense to do so, and to not retire Constellations. Our Defense requirements are still pretty strict, more ships is generally better than fewer. Plus, war with Cardassia or war between the Romulans and Klingons ae fairly likely possibilities. Which means we need to seriously bulk up our frontier fleets, which means diverting a lot of the new modern cruisers to those frontiers. Which in turn means that the Constellations are still needed to meet peacetime garrison requirements.
If/when we run out of crew, and given that resource costs are largely irrelevant, it starts making sense to retire Constellations to crew Rennies- with the notable exception of the Challorn, since we can't replicate the Blooded status of Challorn's crew in a new Rennie.
At a later date if we ever have surplus crew it might actually make sense to reactivate those Constellations, however, on the principle that more ships is generally better than fewer. Especially since the Constellations haven't shown any signs of mechanical unreliability, and a refit is likely to extend their service life dramatically.
However, we should still think seriously in terms of developing the Constellation refit, and refitting those ships, regardless of whether we mothball them. Improving their stats will make using them again at a later time more attractive if we have the crews available in an emergency. Likewise, the member world fleets will be significantly stronger if their legacy Constellations can be refitted.
Footnote:
The demands of laying down new Renaissances and Excelsiors at the pace permitted by Chen's special ability actually DOES start to cut into our resource pool. @Briefvoice has managed a plan that doesn't put us in the red on anything... but it DOES require us to make "pp for resources" requests in 2315, 2317, and 2318. Furthermore, it doesn't make allowances for the (unforeseeable) costs of building auxiliaries in the new Amarkia yard, and we spend a lot of time towards the end of the decade building low-crew-cost Centaur-As and (hopefully) low-cost Excelsior refits.
In other words, the sheer pace of construction under Chen puts us at very real risk of running out of both resources AND crew.
On the other hand, there are a lot of good things we can do for the fleet, even on relatively skimpy crew and resource budgets. Plus, our income and options will continue to grow over time, maybe even faster than Briefvoice's current projections believe. Since I gather that on the whole he's trying to be slightly pessimistic. That way, any surprises will hopefully be pleasant ones.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
A real life "repair ship" isn't the same as a mobile drydock. It has cranes, lot of trained repair personnel, and lots of machine tools to make parts, so it can do a lot of good for fixing a ship- but it's no substitute for a shipyard berth.
I suspect that the same will be true of our repair ships. Thankfully, tractor beams are a thing, which means we can generally tow a ship (or even multiple pieces of a ship). And apparently, tractor beams continue to work at warp speeds, though not necessarily at high warp.
Honestly, if we're in the customization business, I'd advocate a refit that improves the Constellations' shields or hull strength over one to increase their firepower. We're not really planning to include Constellations in battle fleets, we're planning to keep them mostly sequestered in rear areas. They've effectively been demoted to 'high performance escorts.'
We'll never be able to make a Constellation fight as well as a Rennie or a ConnieBee, so it's semi-pointless to try and ramp up their firepower. Much better to give them survivability, to increase their odds of not blowing up when hit by failed event checks.
I would like you to remember, though, that asking for a Refit design in the Snakepit is not an instantaneous process. It takes six turns/quarters for the Constellations, and we can only get a chance to ask in the second quarter of every year. We don't have to ask this year, but if you want to do refits in 2315 we likely need to be asking in the 2313 Snkaepit.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Also, combat caps.
Unless SIF tech has improved enough for that point, I doubt we can do the +1 hull refit cheaply.
Hull is, after all, physical duranium that needs to be replaced.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah. And if we go narratively, the last time Starfleet tried to strengthen a ship's hull cheaply it did NOT go well.
I can only assume that the +1 Hull for the Miranda-A refit comes from massively bulking up the rollbar and nacelle pylons, which seem a bit structurally fragile as designed. Possibly also from appliqué armor to key parts of the saucer.
I'm talking about the physical act of refitting the ships themselves, versus the act of replacing them. What I'm saying is that we may want to adopt a "wait and see" stance on that until we've commissioned our first wave of Rennies in 2316 or so, rather than committing ahead of time to retiring ships (or to not retiring them).
Regardless of whether we choose to replace Constellations with Renaissances, it is desirable to refit the ships, because even if we're just putting them in mothballs, we want to make sure they're well maintained, mechanically reliable, and as well equipped as possible in the event that we ever do break them out of mothballs again.
I can only assume that the +1 Hull for the Miranda-A refit comes from massively bulking up the rollbar and nacelle pylons, which seem a bit structurally fragile as designed. Possibly also from appliqué armor to key parts of the saucer.
To clarify, I favor obtaining the option to refit as soon as possible, delaying if and only if we desperately need the extra political will, or if that means we get a better refit.
I'm talking about the physical act of refitting the ships themselves, versus the act of replacing them. What I'm saying is that we may want to adopt a "wait and see" stance on that until we've commissioned our first wave of Rennies in 2316 or so, rather than committing ahead of time to retiring ships (or to not retiring them).
Regardless of whether we choose to replace Constellations with Renaissances, it is desirable to refit the ships, because even if we're just putting them in mothballs, we want to make sure they're well maintained, mechanically reliable, and as well equipped as possible in the event that we ever do break them out of mothballs again.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We should definitely GET the refit in the Snakepit no matter what (maybe not this Pit, but certainly by the next). If only because, IIRC, the member fleets have a LOT of Consties and they are likely to immediately refit all of theirs if we get the refit done. This helps us at home since it will add a couple points of Combat per member fleet. And if we can get a Constie-B refit that is superior, even at the cost of resources, this would also be useful; it would make our Consties better than our Centaurs, even if they are inefficient in terms of crew. We'll want to hold onto the Cheron no matter what, too, and she would benefit from a refit...
@Simon_Jester given that a refit eats a year of berth time either way, and crews deduct a year before the build is complete, we would be down a hull for the same amount of time whether we were mothballing a Constie to crew a Rennie or upgrading a Constie. Also given that we have a combat cap of 310 and apparently we're only at 144 (thought we had more ships than that?) I don't see us hitting the CC anytime soon. Someday, perhaps, but I think we've a ways to go before we hit that.
Given that the MWCO allows us to "sell" mothballed ships apparently, we might be able to sell of our excess Consties instead of holding them in reserve, too. Given how hard it is to acquire crew, I don't think there's going to be a sudden surge that would let us recrew anything in reserve unless something like a serious war unlocks mechanics that allows us to draft personnel or something. Even so, we're still better off building Miranda-As in that circumstance rather than reactivating Consties (since I doubt such a surge would be fast enough that we would save time reactivating ships as compared to new construction).
If we were going to hold onto Consties, though, your point is well taken about their Combat score. The refit should probably be reworked to aim for a C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D4 base with any extra points going to S4 or P4. If we could get both that would make our Consties excellent garrison cruisers. It would make them somewhat competitive with Renaissances for garrison duties alone, although a Renaissance is much more likely to survive failure than even such a hypothetical Constie-B.
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I am looking forward to what the SDB has to say once the sheet shakes down, too. I do idly wonder if we might want a Kepler cruiser, since if they will be operating mostly in the Border Zones they will be dealing with possible enemies. Not to mention that the RBZ and KBZ Keplers will be tasked with cloak detection, and if I were an enemy with a cloak I would want to kill the thing that can see me first. Something like C2 S7-8 H4 L4 P2 D2 would be a baseline requirement. Maybe even bump it up to a Centaur statline so that it can do event response since it's in the Zone anyway.
I do also wonder if an Oberth refit will ever be an option. Wikiwalk says that they apparently did science missions for the next 50+ years, so it does make me wonder if a refit will be an option at some point.
@Simon_Jester given that a refit eats a year of berth time either way, and crews deduct a year before the build is complete, we would be down a hull for the same amount of time whether we were mothballing a Constie to crew a Rennie or upgrading a Constie. Also given that we have a combat cap of 310 and apparently we're only at 144 (thought we had more ships than that?) I don't see us hitting the CC anytime soon. Someday, perhaps, but I think we've a ways to go before we hit that.
Given that the MWCO allows us to "sell" mothballed ships apparently, we might be able to sell of our excess Consties instead of holding them in reserve, too. Given how hard it is to acquire crew, I don't think there's going to be a sudden surge that would let us recrew anything in reserve unless something like a serious war unlocks mechanics that allows us to draft personnel or something. Even so, we're still better off building Miranda-As in that circumstance rather than reactivating Consties (since I doubt such a surge would be fast enough that we would save time reactivating ships as compared to new construction).
If we were going to hold onto Consties, though, your point is well taken about their Combat score. The refit should probably be reworked to aim for a C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D4 base with any extra points going to S4 or P4. If we could get both that would make our Consties excellent garrison cruisers. It would make them somewhat competitive with Renaissances for garrison duties alone, although a Renaissance is much more likely to survive failure than even such a hypothetical Constie-B.
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I am looking forward to what the SDB has to say once the sheet shakes down, too. I do idly wonder if we might want a Kepler cruiser, since if they will be operating mostly in the Border Zones they will be dealing with possible enemies. Not to mention that the RBZ and KBZ Keplers will be tasked with cloak detection, and if I were an enemy with a cloak I would want to kill the thing that can see me first. Something like C2 S7-8 H4 L4 P2 D2 would be a baseline requirement. Maybe even bump it up to a Centaur statline so that it can do event response since it's in the Zone anyway.
I do also wonder if an Oberth refit will ever be an option. Wikiwalk says that they apparently did science missions for the next 50+ years, so it does make me wonder if a refit will be an option at some point.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Well I'm still not really upto date with the latest spreadsheet but it looks like hitting 2/7/2/3/4/4+ Should be fairly easy. Getting high D values is much easier than anything else right now due to the ability to build 4 nacelle ships. High science in small ships is quite hard with out eating lots of weight and power from a cursory glance. The suggestion of four hull points for a science specialty ship is also filling me with dread because it's not really feasible with the rest of the proposed statline for an escort.
2320/2321 is when when my projections show us hitting a (Council Counts) 310 combat. Taking into account that we will have completed the last Lone Ranger technology that makes our explorers count for less combat and may/may not have the Forward Defense technology that makes ships in Border Zones count for less. So 9 to 10 years from now.
Okay, to be absolutely clear that is something that @OneirosTheWriter has never confirmed. We've talked about it a lot in the thread. People have said they'd liked to do it. The QM has "hmmmed". But it's never been offered as an option at any point.
We talked a lot about making Sulu the Admiral too, and look at how that worked out. So I wouldn't count on it.
Apparently the issue is that Oberths are so tiny (150kt, the smallest ship in our fleet) that it's hard to squeeze anything more into the frame.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So noted. Our maximum combat 8 years ago was 120 points less than it is now, though, so I anticipate that in 10 years our combat cap will also have risen. Hopefully, it will have done so enough to keep our berths busy.
I actually based that statement off this quote below.
When I hear "market" and "send ships to" it really does sound a lot like we will be selling them off, honestly.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
As a pure science ship, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Oberth. 50 years of tooling in to watch rare phenomenon discovered by big powerful Excelsiors, Ambassadors, and Galaxys and certified safe but interesting by those ships make perfect sense. It's when an Oberth is the first one to come that way that's a problem.
Then we retrofit some more weight on them. I mean, in reality it's not unknown to literally cut a submarine in half and stick in a fifty-foot extension to buy yourself some more space to work with. Starfleet apparently bolted on extra nacelles in refits at some points, that's got to change overall weight. Another 25kt would buy us how much?
Then we retrofit some more weight on them. I mean, in reality it's not unknown to literally cut a submarine in half and stick in a fifty-foot extension to buy yourself some more space to work with. Starfleet apparently bolted on extra nacelles in refits at some points, that's got to change overall weight. Another 25kt would buy us how much?