I feel like that's got to be a pre-"war on the Syndicate" political description, though. We've seen that this is basically a civil war, and that means there is no more room for fence-sitting about the Federation. It's becoming pretty clear that you pick the Federation or align yourself with the "tolerating the Syndicate wasn't so bad/we have bigger concerns/etc" line.

I mean, speaking more Doyleist it seems highly likely that if we grind down the Syndicate enough in conjunction with the Orions hitting 500/500 then the Orion Union will join the Federation, so we might as well begin the fictional positioning. The Federation's war on the Syndicate makes a pretty good reason for why politics are shifting so drastically that "we don't need to join the Federation" political sentiment is effectively crushed.
I have long-term plans for TuP as we get closer to Affiliate level in terms of the necessary pivoting they'll have to do, but honestly the political and cultural issues are big enough that @OneirosTheWriter could conceivably put a Apatia-style block on membership if he wanted to, or they could cause problems down the road like @Simon_Jester said. I'm not in control of any of that though so Who Knows.

I really should write a thing about them though, they've been pretty overlooked :V

However, I'm not sure it's the Orion war that will bring TuP around. They're based on two major principles that counter the Federation: Orion for Orions and a belief in a return to the glories of the Empire; and that the Federation's economic and bioethical outlook is wildly diverged from what is compatible with Orion society. Obviously the Syndicate is bad, but Federation and Caitian boots on the ground stokes paranoia in their base and in general about becoming an occupied state [for IRL parallels, consider people afraid the UN will invade]. Now that might change, but what I think TuP would be doing is mostly waiting it out and hitting the government with withering criticism for the failures of Starfleet. Ultimately what they hope is that Starfleet will withdraw before the fight is really over, and then they'll sweep Congress from power, claiming that Congress' vaunted Federation isn't actually in it for the average Orion; that Orion blood was spilled over the Federation's temper-tantrum about a crippled ship and they left Orions in the lurch. Which wouldn't even be entirely inaccurate.

In the event of an actual Syndicate defeat obviously yeah, they'd have to change their tune. But in any realistic timeframe Congress may well be out of power by then anyways, in terms of natural election cycles.
 
I'm going to be honest, I think you're reading a bit too much condescension into my posts.

I believe in trusting other people's intelligence. I believe that the average person has a lot more ability than they believe, when it comes to following a complex argument or explanation. And I don't believe in watering all my ideas down and trimming away my justifications, in order to fit everything into five-second soundbites.

Why is this a problem?
I'm glad to know that you are not intentionally trying to be condescending with your posts, but if you can't read why I might think then I think you should reread the part of your post I am addressing. Simon I'm an intelligent person and as far as I can tell most if not all of the people involved in the quest are intelligent people as well. There is nothing wrong with providing supporting data and complex arguments but quite frankly you tend the verge into the territory information overload. Look I rather enjoy intelligent discourse on varying subjects but there comes a point when you go into such detail that it stops seeming like you are addressing some who you want to have a detailed conversation or argument with but rather treating them like they need to be educated on the subject matter at hand. I'm not asking you to water down or fit things into five minute sound bites.
 
I'm going to be honest, I think you're reading a bit too much condescension into my posts.

I believe in trusting other people's intelligence. I believe that the average person has a lot more ability than they believe, when it comes to following a complex argument or explanation. And I don't believe in watering all my ideas down and trimming away my justifications, in order to fit everything into five-second soundbites.

Why is this a problem?

Your excess detail is often used to build an impression, and then you argue from the impression rather than to the existing or pertinent material on the subject at hand.
 
I have long-term plans for TuP as we get closer to Affiliate level in terms of the necessary pivoting they'll have to do, but honestly the political and cultural issues are big enough that @OneirosTheWriter could conceivably put a Apatia-style block on membership if he wanted to, or they could cause problems down the road like @Simon_Jester said. I'm not in control of any of that though so Who Knows.

From a pure gamist perspective it would feel a little cheap to have spilled all this blood and effort taking down the Syndicate only to be told, "Oh no, there's actually a whole other series of Events you have to clear to get them to join." Just my point of view, though.
 
From a pure gamist perspective it would feel a little cheap to have spilled all this blood and effort taking down the Syndicate only to be told, "Oh no, there's actually a whole other series of Events you have to clear to get them to join." Just my point of view, though.
I dunno, it makes sense to me. I never really envisioned the Syndicate as being a problem to membership as I did it being a problem that would become amplified by membership ie, now they're inside our open borders. In some way that is a problem, but I didn't think the Syndicate was The major stumbling block.

Apatia problem was resolved in like, what, two turns though? Probably won't be too bad if we come out of the Syndicate Campaign smelling relatively rose-like.
 
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
 
I don't personally believe that the reprimand is the end of it. The queens who pulled the raid aren't going to stop.
Agreed.
I meant the caste-based stuff...
I dunno. I'm not sure we did fully resolve the caste thing. We've smoothed it over to the point where the Apiata leadership sees us as a comforting and useful partner rather than a potential destabilizer (the way some Bajoran leaders probably saw us). But that doesn't mean everything is shiny now.

From a pure gamist perspective it would feel a little cheap to have spilled all this blood and effort taking down the Syndicate only to be told, "Oh no, there's actually a whole other series of Events you have to clear to get them to join." Just my point of view, though.
Honestly, membership is such a big deal that it's justified if we have to jump through a few hoops to get it. Or deal with internal political issues. So far, we've been extremely fortunate in that all our new member races were in good political shape, and they all seemed pretty enthusiastic and eager. None of them have significant internal dissent against Federation membership, and none of them have really caused us any problems to speak of... yet.

That can't last forever.

Another factor is that frankly, the Syndicate isn't just an obstacle to Orion membership. It is in a real sense a separate state from the Orion Union, one that they've been at war with for years, and it's a foreign enemy we have to defeat whether the Orions join us or not. Because having it sitting around inside our space acting like a fifth column isn't acceptable. They're a ready-made asset for any external enemy.

Your excess detail is often used to build an impression, and then you argue from the impression rather than to the existing or pertinent material on the subject at hand.
From my point of view, it's the other way around. A lot of people keep trying to artificially trim down the list of "relevant information," in ways that lead them to draw a narrow-minded conclusion. Or, as a closely related problem, they dismiss alternative points of view because they don't understand or don't care about the reasons why other people disagree, and don't really even examine those points of view seriously.

So I put in the time to explain.

Not going to regret that.
 
Agreed.
I dunno. I'm not sure we did fully resolve the caste thing. We've smoothed it over to the point where the Apiata leadership sees us as a comforting and useful partner rather than a potential destabilizer (the way some Bajoran leaders probably saw us). But that doesn't mean everything is shiny now.
I know we already spiralled into one debate based on faulty memory, but I'm specifically referring to the outcome of one event chain where our reward was something like "Road cleared to Apatia membership" because we hashed out the issues of the caste system, waaaaay back.
 
It was mentioned that Orions may have a problem since they have a capitalist society, well that actually may be a bigger benefit of bringing in the Rigellians. They formed a Mercantile party, which would be more familiar to capitalists and also give them a basis to join. Likely I see Orions coming in with a mix of development and mercantile representatives.

The Apiata events being mentioned was when they hit the 300 level and needed differences to be figured out which happened through events and a well written omake or two.
 
It was mentioned that Orions may have a problem since they have a capitalist society, well that actually may be a bigger benefit of bringing in the Rigellians. They formed a Mercantile party, which would be more familiar to capitalists and also give them a basis to join. Likely I see Orions coming in with a mix of development and mercantile representatives.

The Apiata events being mentioned was when they hit the 300 level and needed differences to be figured out which happened through events and a well written omake or two.
On the other hand, if the Orions enter in a huge mercantile Block, and ally with the Mercantiles in Rigel, then we're looking at a fairly Mercantile-dominated government, either a coalition to keep them out of power or one formed around them.
 
On the other hand, if the Orions enter in a huge mercantile Block, and ally with the Mercantiles in Rigel, then we're looking at a fairly Mercantile-dominated government, either a coalition to keep them out of power or one formed around them.

I think we will probably have the Apiata, Indorians, and Caldonians (Maybe even the Risans too) as members before the current Orion mess is sorted out, so that should reduce the likelihood of a mercantile domination.
 
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It still doesn't necessarily pay off to keep designing new escorts too close together if the new class is a replacement for the most recent old class. Because the PP cost adds up and you wind up with lots of relatively short escort production runs. The next thing you know you've got Centaurs AND Post-Centaurs AND Post-Post-Centaurs all kicking around, and it's just awkward because the Centaurs are still reasonably effective ships you don't want to scrap and it's kind of blah. :(

What, you don't want the Federation fleet to have an Escort wing composed of Miranda-C&Ds, Centaur-D&Es (haven't finished refitting them all yet), New Orleans-B, Saber-As, Defiants, Oberth-Bs and Keplar-As? Would fit more into with the visuals of many different designs that tend to make it to the big screen :)
 
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On the other hand, if the Orions enter in a huge mercantile Block, and ally with the Mercantiles in Rigel, then we're looking at a fairly Mercantile-dominated government, either a coalition to keep them out of power or one formed around them.
Indorians are coming in sooner and are likely development, Apiata when they join is likely development or development/hawk mix. There are other races that have pacifist, expansion, development or hawk mixes as well that are affiliates that are likely to join around the same time the Orions do.
 
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 906 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6

Task: AMARKI

[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
No. of Votes: 28
ClawClawBite
10ebbor10
aledeth
AlphaDelta
Forgothrax
Gingganz
Goat
Happerry
Iron Wolf
Japanime
KnightDisciple
kyuden
lbmaian
Leila Hann
Mr Tebbs
Narutosramen
Night
Night_stalker
nocarename
NullVoid
pheonix89
Simon_Jester
Steven Kodaly
tryrar
UbeOne
UberJJK
Vehrec
Yeangst

[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
No. of Votes: 16
HearthBorn
Aeondrac
aeqnai
Ato
Briefvoice
cast2007
Derek58
JesseJ
Muer'ci
Nervos Belli
NHO
Nix
Random Member
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Thebigpieman
Void Stalker


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: BETA

[X][BETA] Swarm
No. of Votes: 27
HearthBorn
10ebbor10
aeqnai
aledeth
Derek58
Forgothrax
Gingganz
Goat
Iron Wolf
JesseJ
kyuden
lbmaian
Mr Tebbs
Narutosramen
NHO
Night_stalker
nocarename
NullVoid
pheonix89
Simon_Jester
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Torgamous
UbeOne
UberJJK
Void Stalker
Yeangst

[X][BETA] Combined Arms
No. of Votes: 15
Happerry
Aeondrac
AlphaDelta
Ato
Briefvoice
cast2007
Japanime
KnightDisciple
Leila Hann
Muer'ci
Nervos Belli
Night
Random Member
Thebigpieman
tryrar

[X][BETA] Lone Ranger
No. of Votes: 1
ClawClawBite

[X][BETA] Swarm Doctrine
No. of Votes: 1
Vehrec


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: PRIORITY

[X][PRIORITY] Rigel Mid-Term: Change from "Improve Tech Recruitment" to "Improve Budget"
No. of Votes: 9
lbmaian
Aeondrac
aledeth
Briefvoice
KnightDisciple
Night_stalker
Random Member
UberJJK
Void Stalker

[X][PRIORITY] Rigel Mid-Term: Change from "Improve Tech Recruitment" to "Improve Officer Recruitment."
No. of Votes: 3
Simon_Jester
NullVoid
Steven Kodaly


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: RIGEL

[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
No. of Votes: 29
cast2007
10ebbor10
aeqnai
aledeth
Ato
Derek58
Forgothrax
Gingganz
Goat
Iron Wolf
JesseJ
KnightDisciple
kyuden
lbmaian
Mr Tebbs
Narutosramen
Nervos Belli
NHO
Night_stalker
NullVoid
pheonix89
Random Member
Simon_Jester
Steven Kodaly
UbeOne
UberJJK
Vehrec
Void Stalker
Yeangst

[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
No. of Votes: 6
Thebigpieman
Aeondrac
Briefvoice
Muer'ci
nocarename
SynchronizedWritersBlock

[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps
No. of Votes: 5
ClawClawBite
HearthBorn
Japanime
Leila Hann
Night

[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps ship S'harien
No. of Votes: 3
Happerry
AlphaDelta
tryrar


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: VULCAN

[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
No. of Votes: 43
ClawClawBite
10ebbor10
Aeondrac
aeqnai
aledeth
AlphaDelta
Ato
Briefvoice
cast2007
Derek58
Forgothrax
Gingganz
Goat
Happerry
HearthBorn
Iron Wolf
Japanime
JesseJ
KnightDisciple
kyuden
lbmaian
Leila Hann
Mr Tebbs
Muer'ci
Narutosramen
Nervos Belli
NHO
Night
Night_stalker
nocarename
NullVoid
pheonix89
Random Member
Simon_Jester
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Thebigpieman
tryrar
UbeOne
UberJJK
Vehrec
Void Stalker
Yeangst

Total No. of Voters: 45
 
@OneirosTheWriter, I think it would be helpful next time if you had an explicit "[ ][PRIORITY] No Priority Change" option, because looking at that tally, I can't tell whether people are actively against any priority change (or those two Rigel mid-term votes) or just don't care.
 
@OneirosTheWriter, I think it would be helpful next time if you had an explicit "[ ][PRIORITY] No Priority Change" option, because looking at that tally, I can't tell whether people are actively against any priority change (or those two Rigel mid-term votes) or just don't care.
I think that, with under a third of voters registering a vote for that question, I'm going to have to consider it no quorum achieved, and just let Rigel make their own call on their priorities. Will put a No Priority Change option up next time though.

Edit:
Winning Vote
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
 
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I know we already spiralled into one debate based on faulty memory, but I'm specifically referring to the outcome of one event chain where our reward was something like "Road cleared to Apatia membership" because we hashed out the issues of the caste system, waaaaay back.
I looked it up. That was in 2308Q3, during Ajam's captaincy of Courageous. The event reward was "the Apiata will begin to integrate" or "cleared road-blocks to integration." I think that just meant "they can tie into us at 300+ status so we get a resource/crew trickle from them." It's not a guarantee that all our future political issues are resolved.
 
I will confess I didn't catch the reference for Madame Ordey, to my retroactive regret. :(

By the way, did anyone catch the Star Trek movie reference in my most recent omake? One thing about Leslie is I can never resist TOS/movie references in stories he shows up in.

Cookie for the person who catches it. ;)

EDIT: Thinking of the French Revolution in the context of the Orion Union always gets Al Stewart stuck in my head. This is generally not a bad thing. :)

That Reminds me, I need to write me some Maxime Sierre!

So I've had an idea for an Omake or few since I hit the Orion Syndicate Arc (as it were). But I'd need some help getting it in a state where it'd fit into everything else. I'm honestly a bit intimidated by how good some of the other Omakes have been, too! But I shall soldier on as shamelessly as possible.

-General Beta reading; grammar, spelling, overall prose review, etc.
-Help with names for people and things. I'm unsure how Orion names have, thus far, been chosen/made, and I'm bad at names on my own (I often use things like Behind The Name to make RP character names). Things I need help naming:
--An Orion family: Mother, Father, Daughter, Son
--An Orion Butler: Male
--Some sort of creature from Orion natural fauna, and/or Orion myths, that could/would strike fear in the hearts of criminals. Preferrably something with big, leathery wings and some horns or pointed ears, and dark coloration.
--Technobabble names for a lot of things.
-Help figuring out how and where to slot in an Orion hypercorp that's comparatively clean (and what corruption there is perhaps serves the dual purpose of channeling corruption to a few places, and maybe helping cushion the acquisition of vital materials for some off-the-books work).
-Some help figuring out timelines and such.
-Help figuring out which planet is best; I'm leaning Alukk due to how large and important it is.
-An open mind because you probably know what I'm working on right now but please don't just foo-foo me please?

Actually, something that I had been considering is opening up a dedicated conversation or a thread in like, Creative discussion and worldbuilding for people writing TBG Omakes to drop into, to discuss ideas or characters. And to get proofreading and editing done. @Iron Wolf and @anon_user and I already have a little conversation for that sort of thing, and I've pm'ed with a couple of other people. I find it a great help to have other sets of eyes on my words.

If there is some interest for it, I can open up a thread?
 
That Reminds me, I need to write me some Maxime Sierre!



Actually, something that I had been considering is opening up a dedicated conversation or a thread in like, Creative discussion and worldbuilding for people writing TBG Omakes to drop into, to discuss ideas or characters. And to get proofreading and editing done. @Iron Wolf and @anon_user and I already have a little conversation for that sort of thing, and I've pm'ed with a couple of other people. I find it a great help to have other sets of eyes on my words.

If there is some interest for it, I can open up a thread?
I'm interested. I may decide to write some later, so a central reference (with brief characterization notes) would be nice.
 
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