SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
What we need is a science team to work on the Spacestation tech that lets starbases do repair work so our yards don't have to bother with it.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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[X][BETA] Swarm
This sounds like we need tugboats.
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On a side note, it occurs to me that a large part of the Orion government must be quietly relieved that we appointed an all-female command team at the top echelon of the Anti-Slavery Task Force.
If I felt like I had a good handle on Orion politics and characters I might try to omake that, but I don't.
Here, the entire reason we even have a dedicated Starfleet Explorer Corps is because it's the kind of organization that greatly benefits the Federation as a whole, but isn't very cost-effective for any one group within the Federation to pursue on its own.
If I felt like I had a good handle on Orion politics and characters I might try to omake that, but I don't.
The past hundred pages are about one year of gameplay, and we've had a lot else on our minds. I can't help it if you've forgotten, but I assure you all you have to do is say the word "Keplers," and everyone who's seriously following this thread will have a glimmer of what you mean.
Citation needed. Do you have a cause for concern other than assuming that the playerbase has zero attention span?
Trouble is, canon Starfleet is probably several times larger than ours, and EU Starfleet larger still, and it's a lot easier for the member worlds to independently make investments in things of questionable long-term utility.
Here, the entire reason we even have a dedicated Starfleet Explorer Corps is because it's the kind of organization that greatly benefits the Federation as a whole, but isn't very cost-effective for any one group within the Federation to pursue on its own.
That would help a lot. Hopefully we can see about setting up a class of tow/repair ships once we have the auxiliary yard up and running. Even then, though, the point remains- you want to minimize the transit time associated with wartime repairs. It's not a big deal when our ships are getting damaged one by one due to random events during peacetime, but it would start to add up if we were engaged in intense fighting and had multiple explorers out with battle damage after a Kadesh-sized naval engagement.
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The issue is that we need the tugboats on location.
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- Mid-Atlantic
The tugboats just have to be somewhere within several days' warp travel, in order to remove MOST of the burden from our frontline warships.
It'd also help if the 'tugboats' were actually designed as repair ships, with industrial fabricators and trained engineering staffs to help do whatever repairs are possible on the damaged ship while it's in transit.
It'd also help if the 'tugboats' were actually designed as repair ships, with industrial fabricators and trained engineering staffs to help do whatever repairs are possible on the damaged ship while it's in transit.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
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The last time we discussed longer term ship design planning, having a science ship update after the new explorer that is Starfleet's official ambition for the next 9 more years, was a major contender.
Once the update to the design rules is done, and people know what it might look like, we may get more discussion.
Once the update to the design rules is done, and people know what it might look like, we may get more discussion.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
I'm going to assume it wasn't intentional but please watch your wording as the bold text very easily implies that I do not not follow the thread seriously and as such my opinion doesn't matter as much. Both of which are false I may not post as much as you and some others do but i take a great deal of pleasure from this quest and have been participating from the beginning. Even if I wasn't anyone who reads the quest and at lest tries to to make coherent arguments should at least be listened to.
As for the second part I can't really point to any specific post other then what feels like a lot of the players have little to no interest in any ship that isn't a cruiser or explorer grade ship.
As for the third part. You may be right I honestly would like to hear word of god on it, but what you day does makes sense.
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Okay, well I'm just going to say that I don't have an eidetic memory or anything, but I remember the idea of an improved science vessel being discussed repeatedly, and being generally approved of, and plenty of people talking about how our current escorts aren't really satisfactory and talking about various schemes for improving on that. I would not be surprised if you yourself were privy to some of those past discussions. I know I've been.
The project proposal for an improved science vessel even has a consistent working title that's been referenced numerous times in this thread for months: Kepler.
I do not think your perception that the thread is ignoring escorts and science vessels is an accurate one, and I feel like it's a derogatory position for you to take towards the rest of us. I understand that you perceive the implication that you're not paying attention. And I understand that you don't like it. But how do you think I like the implication that everyone else isn't paying attention to something obviously important like getting a science vessel whose stat lines aren't all 1's or an escort that can perform to our satisfaction?
...
In-game, it has become clear since 2305 or so that some of our potential enemies have built up quite a sizeable force of strong cruisers and heavy escorts, and that we had no economical designs to oppose them with except for middling-weight escorts and an extremely sub-par cruiser design to oppose them with. Meanwhile, it has also become clear that while our Excelsiors are very good ships, they are not so impressive and capable that we can afford to rest on our laurels.
Due in part to the choices forced on us by the doctrine tech tree, our chosen reaction to this has been to mass-produce explorers and work on a set of cruisers strong enough to meet the Cardassians' ships in battle one-on-one. As a consequence, development of more advanced ships on an escort chassis has been sidelined until we have our next-generation explorer and cruiser ready. But they have not been forgotten, and the people who are most actively involved in charting our future path in shipbuilding, research, and fleet organization are very much mindful of it.
So this is not simply a case of the thread being too forgetful or stupid to realize that such designs are necessary. Prioritization is necessary, and it was decided that the Constitution-B, the Renaissance, and the Ambassador filled more critical needs for Starfleet. At least when compared to the Kepler or a notional next-generation escort design, which lacks a working title in part because we can't seem to agree on what kind of role the new escort should be trying to fill.
The project proposal for an improved science vessel even has a consistent working title that's been referenced numerous times in this thread for months: Kepler.
I do not think your perception that the thread is ignoring escorts and science vessels is an accurate one, and I feel like it's a derogatory position for you to take towards the rest of us. I understand that you perceive the implication that you're not paying attention. And I understand that you don't like it. But how do you think I like the implication that everyone else isn't paying attention to something obviously important like getting a science vessel whose stat lines aren't all 1's or an escort that can perform to our satisfaction?
...
In-game, it has become clear since 2305 or so that some of our potential enemies have built up quite a sizeable force of strong cruisers and heavy escorts, and that we had no economical designs to oppose them with except for middling-weight escorts and an extremely sub-par cruiser design to oppose them with. Meanwhile, it has also become clear that while our Excelsiors are very good ships, they are not so impressive and capable that we can afford to rest on our laurels.
Due in part to the choices forced on us by the doctrine tech tree, our chosen reaction to this has been to mass-produce explorers and work on a set of cruisers strong enough to meet the Cardassians' ships in battle one-on-one. As a consequence, development of more advanced ships on an escort chassis has been sidelined until we have our next-generation explorer and cruiser ready. But they have not been forgotten, and the people who are most actively involved in charting our future path in shipbuilding, research, and fleet organization are very much mindful of it.
So this is not simply a case of the thread being too forgetful or stupid to realize that such designs are necessary. Prioritization is necessary, and it was decided that the Constitution-B, the Renaissance, and the Ambassador filled more critical needs for Starfleet. At least when compared to the Kepler or a notional next-generation escort design, which lacks a working title in part because we can't seem to agree on what kind of role the new escort should be trying to fill.
Though I mean, there is absolutely no rule saying that we can only build one prototype ship at a time or be doing only one ship design at a time. We could easily start working on a next-gen escort or science ship prototype while the Ambassador protoype is still being built. It's more of a question about when the technology is "good enough" that it seems like a good idea to take our Escorts team off developing better escort technology and on developing a specific new escort.
Could you convince anyone to build the economy version outside of actual wartime, though?
Could you convince anyone to build the economy version outside of actual wartime, though?
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
Personally, I don't mind the Oberth because it's a nice way of meeting science requirements without worrying about combat cap. I like the idea of mostly unarmed ships zipping around doing science things, and we've seen repeatedly how useful it is in sectors without an Excelsior. I hope we keep building them for a while.
That said, I recognize the need for a science ship that can stand up to a brisk wind, so I absolutely think a new science escort that's a bit beefier and with higher presence for diplomatic events should be our next project after the Ambassador. I don't frequent the SDB so I dunno what the proposed stat lines are for the Kepler, but unless it's completely ridiculous I'll probably support it. Not every problem can be solved with a deflector dish, though not through lack of trying.
That said, I recognize the need for a science ship that can stand up to a brisk wind, so I absolutely think a new science escort that's a bit beefier and with higher presence for diplomatic events should be our next project after the Ambassador. I don't frequent the SDB so I dunno what the proposed stat lines are for the Kepler, but unless it's completely ridiculous I'll probably support it. Not every problem can be solved with a deflector dish, though not through lack of trying.
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Usage as a personal battle-yacht?
We spent a significant amount of discussion at about the time the quest came back from the latest break talking about post-Ambassador design. I don't know how you missed it, but we did. Like, long, long posts over multiple pages. Science escort design was talked over (I know for certain because I talked about it), as was next gen escort and most recently, overall cruiser and escort role paradigms. Hell, I remember laying out a list on consensus and nonconsensus designs to someone else within the last two weeks. Frankly, I think you've missed one or more things.
After the Ambassador it's almost completely certain that we're going to develop a new science escort, commonly referred to as the Kepler although the name isn't official yet. After that, there are tentative plans for a modern escort, although there's options on how to design it.
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Proposed stat lines are generally along the lines of S7/8, with the rest being twos.
I would like to have at least the same science as an Ambassador, and I feel that that is worth waiting until Tier 3.
To be fair, I assume that's because unlike the real Ordey, Shar didn't exactly die after committing bathtub murder -- quite the opposite, in fact.I will confess I didn't catch the reference for Madame Ordey, to my retroactive regret.
I would assume the Type-G shuttle's appearence in general. Which reminds me of THAT DANCE WE DO NOT SPEAK OFBy the way, did anyone catch the Star Trek movie reference in my most recent omake? One thing about Leslie is I can never resist TOS/movie references in stories he shows up in.
Cookie for the person who catches it.
i mean unless you're into that i guess
At the cabinet level, the politics are basically the same as the United States, except Orions have historically had even more of an eye to free market involvement and privatization than any United States administration outside of the Guilded Age. There's even roughly similar departments if you want to write an omake about Orion Housing Issues with Executive Officer Kolle BanalaOn a side note, it occurs to me that a large part of the Orion government must be quietly relieved that we appointed an all-female command team at the top echelon of the Anti-Slavery Task Force.
If I felt like I had a good handle on Orion politics and characters I might try to omake that, but I don't.
. It's when you get to the specifics of how the legislature works things start to get to be a bit more of a confusing mishmash of parliamentary and presidential traditions. In the case of Sierre, she's sitting in a role that's basically equivalent to Speaker of the House, IRL Paul Ryan. In a similar vien, despite the roles being switched gender politics are roughly similar to ours as well, possibly being even less egalitarian than IRL.More generally Congress is a centrist party that walks a delicate line between Free-Market Orion Liberals, an old revolutionary core, and pro-Federationists of all stripes. I should probably write more about TuP, and Ascension is like, spoiler third party that thinks with enough modification, the Orion Union will leapfrog the Federation.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
I have a bad headache so my apologies if this and my previous posts are not getting my message across clearly. I also apologize to anyone in the thread that might have thought I was being insulting or derogatory by what I said. I'm going to step away from the conversation for the moment as I am mildly worried it will get hostile. Only a completely different note Simon do you have any idea how difficult it is to respond to your posts sometimes with how much information you throw out with each one.
I legitimately forgot and I'm not sure how I did. Some of my concerns have been addressed by that so thank you for bring it up again.
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True. Although another factor is that we don't really want to spend too large a fraction of our total political will getting new ship classes.
The Federation has/needs, at a rough minimum, four ship classes: explorer, cruiser, escort, and science vessel. It seems unwise and pointless for us to be replacing ship classes more than every 20-30 years, because it's unlikely that advancing technology will make a ship that much better and more desirable after a shorter span of time. If we start the Galaxies only 15 years after we start the Ambassadors, for instance, it borders on the inevitable that the Galaxy won't be a big enough improvement in capability to be worth the time and effort we put into the project.
This lends itself to roughly a five-year gap between new ship classes being commissioned, which is broadly consistent with the timespan between when we started the Renaissance-class project, when we plan to start the Ambassador-class project, and the most likely timeframe for us to start work on the Keplers or the next-generation escort.
I might have missed it anyway. It's probably got more to do with the fact that Ordey's late owner was a looong way from being a Marat.
Swing and a miss.
I actually looked up the Type G shuttle on Memory Beta because I wanted something a bit more 'advanced' than the TOS-era Type Fs, which I imagine would be mostly phased out of service by 2310.
No, the movie reference is something waaay more awesome than that.
Yeah. My problem is just that I don't have an 'in' on it, I can't keep track of who's involved. The cognitive load just... defeats me. So I'm reluctant to get involved in any posts that bring me into contact with Orion politics.At the cabinet level, the politics are basically the same as the United States, except Orions have historically had even more of an eye to free market involvement and privatization than any United States administration outside of the Guilded Age. There's even roughly similar departments if you want to write an omake about Orion Housing Issues with Executive Officer Kolle Banala
More generally Congress is a centrist party that walks a delicate line between Free-Market Orion Liberals, an old revolutionary core, and pro-Federationists of all stripes. I should probably write more about TuP, and Ascension is like, spoiler third party that thinks with enough modification, the Orion Union will leapfrog the Federation.
Exactly how do you suggest that I remedy this deficiency?
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
Just address the points that have been brought up you don't need to type up a paragraph of supporting evidence for each of your points every time you make them. I mean that's not a bad idea to do with Initial arguments and points but when you do it almost every other post in a back and forth it gets difficult and frustrating to deal with and can easily leads to argument bloat.
I feel like that's got to be a pre-"war on the Syndicate" political description, though. We've seen that this is basically a civil war, and that means there is no more room for fence-sitting about the Federation. It's becoming pretty clear that you pick the Federation or align yourself with the "tolerating the Syndicate wasn't so bad/we have bigger concerns/etc" line.
I mean, speaking more Doyleist it seems highly likely that if we grind down the Syndicate enough in conjunction with the Orions hitting 500/500 then the Orion Union will join the Federation, so we might as well begin the fictional positioning. The Federation's war on the Syndicate makes a pretty good reason for why politics are shifting so drastically that "we don't need to join the Federation" political sentiment is effectively crushed.
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I wouldn't be surprised if, even after we grind the Syndicate to a nub and even after the Orions join the Federation, we still have internal Orion political factions that regret the whole thing and call for Orexit.
They'd even have something of a point, about how the pressures of the anti-Syndicate campaign really ARE being used to apply political pressure. Orions who oppose the Syndicate, but don't agree the Federation's vision for the galaxy, don't really have a good option right now.
And they may end up resenting that. Especially if we start seriously curtailing the traditional Orion practices most at odds with Federation values (like capitalism and trans-Orionism).
The way I figure it, I really just have to trust other people are willing and able to follow an extended explanation. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in talking to them in the first place. And I might as well just pack up and play Kerbal Space Program or something.
They'd even have something of a point, about how the pressures of the anti-Syndicate campaign really ARE being used to apply political pressure. Orions who oppose the Syndicate, but don't agree the Federation's vision for the galaxy, don't really have a good option right now.
And they may end up resenting that. Especially if we start seriously curtailing the traditional Orion practices most at odds with Federation values (like capitalism and trans-Orionism).
I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to break the habit of trying to support my arguments and explain my opinions. Nor am I sure I'd really want to, if I could.
The way I figure it, I really just have to trust other people are willing and able to follow an extended explanation. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in talking to them in the first place. And I might as well just pack up and play Kerbal Space Program or something.
Though we might want to cycle through Escort designs more rapidly. One of the interesting things about the "Ship Design - Escort" tech trees is that technologies within them typically require less research than equivalent cruiser/explorer technologies. Most of them take X/10 or X/20 to complete at T2 and X/30 at T3, which is much faster than other ship classes. So the technology is getting better faster for those ships.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Unfortunately, the effects of the ship class tech trees are one of the more up in the air parts of the new ship design system, so we don't know yet what difference those techs make.
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I think that may lend itself better to 'leapfrogging' designs. Say, we have high/low designs like Vehrec (I think) suggested. Or a utility/garrison escort for internal policing combined with a 'combat escort' design that we don't normally build many of, but keep updated and ready in case we need a mobilization, as a successor in concept to the Miranda-A.
And then we just design a new escort every ten years.
So we might start with a 'utility escort' that has, say, Science 4 Presence 4+ Defense 3+ as something that can help backstop Rennies on event checks. This in effect replaces the Centaur-A.
A decade later, we decide that the "in case of war spam Miranda-As" plan is simply no longer satisfactory what with the Klingons rolling out the B'rel and the Cardies and the Romulans presumably working on better light ships too. So we design, in essence, the New Orleans-class, or a slightly slimmer, trimmer version of it. Not so slim and trim as to net militarization, necessarily, but something that can at least keep up in combat.
The decade after THAT, we realize that we can do a lot better on our utility escort design- so we do. And so on.
It still doesn't necessarily pay off to keep designing new escorts too close together if the new class is a replacement for the most recent old class. Because the PP cost adds up and you wind up with lots of relatively short escort production runs. The next thing you know you've got Centaurs AND Post-Centaurs AND Post-Post-Centaurs all kicking around, and it's just awkward because the Centaurs are still reasonably effective ships you don't want to scrap and it's kind of blah.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
... This right here is exactly the kind of thing you should really consider stopping. Not only was the second paragraph unnecessary but it was also again easily interpreted as being highly condescending. Are you doing this intentionally?
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I'm going to be honest, I think you're reading a bit too much condescension into my posts.
I believe in trusting other people's intelligence. I believe that the average person has a lot more ability than they believe, when it comes to following a complex argument or explanation. And I don't believe in watering all my ideas down and trimming away my justifications, in order to fit everything into five-second soundbites.
Why is this a problem?
I believe in trusting other people's intelligence. I believe that the average person has a lot more ability than they believe, when it comes to following a complex argument or explanation. And I don't believe in watering all my ideas down and trimming away my justifications, in order to fit everything into five-second soundbites.
Why is this a problem?