My take on it is, the Kazons may be stupider, but at least they're trying. They're not trying very competently, but they get credit for trying to be a galactic power. Instead of just randoming their way around the universe bumping into walls and trying to kidnap other people's repairmen.

EDIT:

It's like, they know Star Trek is SUPPOSED to be about going around the galaxy, encountering cool new stuff, new technology, strange worlds, et cetera. And they sort of tried to pick up on that. They're really really bad at it, but that's what they're trying to do. They see exciting new technology, they try to master it. Sure, they accidentally kill themselves trying to make the replicator produce banana pancakes or whatever, but it's the thought that counts.


By contrast, the Pakleds? Who knows what they're trying to do I don't even aaagh.
 
Last edited:
Well the Kazon, unlike the Pakleds to the best of my knowledge, also aren't even unified. And they didn't even manage to get to space on their own, while even the Pakleds did.

The Latinum Razzberry Award for Most Incompetent Species goes to the Kazon and their thirsty thirsty ships easily capable of reaching the nearest ice asteroid.
 
The Pakleds are also trying, in their way. They're overall dimmer but apparently further along despite it.

Also looking some stuff up, we're...apparently due for a war with the Tzenkethi soonish. And we haven't even met them. I guess they're secretly Syndraxi.
 
It's not that "Kazon" and "competent" belong together in any sentence, with the possible exception of this one.

It's that the Kazon are trying to space. They're incredibly bad at it, so bad at it that it's hard to imagine anyone screwing it up worse without actually surgically replacing their brains with root vegetables or something. But they're trying. They're doing everything they're supposed to do, they're just doing it badly.

Whereas the Pakleds have just given up and live in large part on the charity of other species who don't have the heart to watch them suffer.
 
On another note, whoever was actually physically piloting the Miracht's saucer section needs to get every single medal allowed. They landed a battle-damaged spaceship not designed for atmospheric reentry without any casualties. That's insane.
 
It's not that "Kazon" and "competent" belong together in any sentence, with the possible exception of this one.

It's that the Kazon are trying to space. They're incredibly bad at it, so bad at it that it's hard to imagine anyone screwing it up worse without actually surgically replacing their brains with root vegetables or something. But they're trying. They're doing everything they're supposed to do, they're just doing it badly.

Whereas the Pakleds have just given up and live in large part on the charity of other species who don't have the heart to watch them suffer.
There actually is an in-universe organization that ranks the relative values of being different species, and they've ranked the Pakleds above the Kazon. The Kazon aren't worth assimilating at all, whereas the Pakleds aren't the Borg's first choice but will do in a pinch.
 
There actually is an in-universe organization that ranks the relative values of being different species, and they've ranked the Pakleds above the Kazon. The Kazon aren't worth assimilating at all, whereas the Pakleds aren't the Borg's first choice but will do in a pinch.

IIRC There was a short story about some Pakleds tracking down the Borg to get assimilated (MAEK US STRONK) and the Borg ignored them wandering around a cube for a good long time before finally giving in during the climax of the Battle of sector 001 and assimilating them because they desperately needed bodies. It was pretty much a trillion beings shrugging their collective shoulders and going "FINE. I GUESS. SHESH".
 
There actually is an in-universe organization that ranks the relative values of being different species, and they've ranked the Pakleds above the Kazon. The Kazon aren't worth assimilating at all, whereas the Pakleds aren't the Borg's first choice but will do in a pinch.
All that means is that the Borg don't think the Kazon have anything worth adding to the Collective, but the Pakleds do.

The relevant quality the Pakleds have might not even be technology or mentality. Maybe Pakleds have some biochemical or anatomical traits that make them good drones, for example. Whereas Kazons are kind of "meh" as drones.

I mean, the Borg wouldn't bother to 'assimilate' a random tennis ball or a pile of rocks, either. They'd just break it down for raw materials to build something useful to themselves.

So all this really proves is that the Kazon are the least special species in the galaxy.
 
Well, the idea behind the analogy is that there's nothing about a tennis ball that makes it unusually useful to the Borg. They have no special incentive to 'assimilate' it, by which I mean to somehow install their own technology into it and make it their own. It's a tennis ball. It's useless to them.

Likewise, what do the Kazon have? Their technology is primitive. They're physically unremarkable and mentally they're kind of dim. Suppose the Borg assimilate a million Kazon; what will they do with them? Unless they urgently need drones just for the sake of having more drones, they haven't gained anything. Suppose the Borg assimilate a Kazon planet. What can they salvage from the planet that is of value? Nothing, aside from the raw materials, due to the primitive Kazon technology.

Just like they won't "assimilate" the tennis ball, because the tennis ball has no special value to them.

Now, that doesn't mean a tennis ball is the worst or stupidest thing in the galaxy- it's just not a thing of obvious utility to the Borg.

The Kazon aren't either.
 
Now, that doesn't mean a tennis ball is the worst or stupidest thing in the galaxy- it's just not a thing of obvious utility to the Borg.

The Kazon aren't either.
My reading is that, according to Seven of Nine, the Kazon are of negative utility to the Borg. "A species that would detract from perfection" sounds to me like their inclusion in the Collective is something to be avoided in and of itself.
 
IIRC There was a short story about some Pakleds tracking down the Borg to get assimilated (MAEK US STRONK) and the Borg ignored them wandering around a cube for a good long time before finally giving in during the climax of the Battle of sector 001 and assimilating them because they desperately needed bodies. It was pretty much a trillion beings shrugging their collective shoulders and going "FINE. I GUESS. SHESH".
this is also how I finally was accepted as a boyfriend NOTE: THIS IS A JOKE
 
Last edited:
"We are the Borg. Go away and stop trying to surrender your ships. We might add what little biological and technological distinctiveness you have to our own if we have the time later. Your culture will be ignored. Resistance is acceptable."
 
I'm going to be honest, the way you phrased that made it sound like you thought the need for an app was a bad thing.

To me, you were giving a very strong impression that you've basically dismissed the idea of using such things (different strategic ideas or NPC game mechanics) for balance. In part because you keep pushing the same ideas about changing the combat rules themselves for balance. I'm rethinking that in light of what you write below, to be fair.

Sorry. When a debate starts getting into multiple tangents and line-by-line replies, I find it hard to keep everything coherent with my own line-by-line replies. Plus I try very hard to break down arguments into its components and avoid conflating them with each other (like what I was doing with the grant/subsidy thing), and from my bad experience of high school debate a long time ago, I have an aversion to the practice of throwing a mass of arguments to "win". Honestly, I should stop trying to respond line-by-line when it gets so unwieldy, because it just makes things confusing.

I don't think he said that he's planning to do this. I think he said he'd have to do this, but doesn't want to.

That's not the impression I got, but we'll see. Or won't see, if he actually uses a new system and we don't get to see combat logs for it yet. As I noted before, with the changes he's musing about, we probably wouldn't see the difference in results in just a handful of engagements.

Honestly, the niche of larger ships against smaller ones is simple: one on one engagements, or two-on-two or something like that.

Yes, on average the fleet of smaller ships will outnumber a fleet of larger ones. But there is still a lot of room for encounters where one of our explorers mops the floor with one or two enemy escorts (or more, in the extreme limiting cases like Klingon Birds-of-Prey). I bet that in wartime the border sector event tables would have all kinds of outcomes like "randomly selected one of your ships fights randomly selected enemy ship due to an encounter on patrol."

Well yes, there is a niche for large ships outside of direct combat mechanics. We did talk extensively about what they could be and how they could vary between factions and tech and so forth.

But I was noting that this provides another subtle - and very subtle at that - niche directly within the combat engine for less high combat ships vs more lower combat ships (besides the more probable attrition of the lower combat ships). Even better, it's an emergent property of the rules, and not some new rule that adds complexity complicatedness.

I really like that the proposed change makes battles more intuitive to visualize without necessarily changing the results noticeably. Higher combat ships are modeled as actually doing more damage per hit, rather than indirectly via higher hit rate at the fleet level. edit: And there is that side benefit of the potential of reducing combat log verbosity by effectively decreasing the number of combat turns.

Back when I thought there would be both combat-based damage and the same combat-based fleet hit % mechanics, my prior analysis showed the potential for some counter-intuitive combat behavior, or at least how overpowered the combat stat becomes. With combat-based damage replacing combat-based fleet hit %, this is no longer the case. The combat stat will have about the same importance as it did before. And the addition of any ship to the fleet, even of a C1 Oberth to a C6 Excelsior, should always help overall damage in the long run, albeit at the risk of attrition. Sure, we could get unlucky and have that Oberth get randomly selected multiple times in a row, but as we take the number of combat turns to the limit, it will average to the same results that we'd get from a rounds + initiative combat system (where each "round", each ship of the fleet gets to trade shots as long as they aren't struck down first), which in turn also averages to about the same results of the current combat-based fleet hit % system.

It also lays the groundwork for further ship-level flexibility down the line, for both faction-specific and tech-specific combat mechanics. For example, shield burn-through, which is probably going to be ship-specific (as in requires new refits and designs), would now be handled in a very intuitive fashion, rather than some attempt to compute some fleet-level shield burn-through %.

I do have one particular worry about this change though: what is going to be the equivalent of the 1.15 exponent that's used for fleet hit % in the new proposed system? That function served to slightly amplify differences between fleet strengths, which serves to increase the decisiveness of battles. Not sure if that's even a good thing for the game, but it's really up to the game designer to decide how decisive battles should be.


So, on another topic, is there any desire to increase the number of research teams we have over the next few years? We have a number of T3 techs that are sitting idle, or will be soon as earlier techs finish, and it would be nice to use our research points on working on the xp of a new team, rather than the relatively more expensive 'wrap up' boosts we started last year. Of course, the later option is still very useful, but I'd rather see the broader approach continue to grow.

IMO, until we get "10 / 60 Type-14 Duotronic Mainframe (Data Analysis Center III) (-0.5 RP required to activate Tech Team (7.5))" and more overall RP income, not really. We're already at risk of not having sufficient RP to activate all our teams next research phase.


Silly replies below:

Notably, though, this is precisely why we have the court-martial. To go over Mbeki's actions in exhaustive detail, to glean every tiny bit of information we can possibly glean from what happened, to figure out if this was something many of our other captains could have handled, or if it was something none of them could have handled.

Maybe Straak or Thuir would have run additional scans- but maybe the aliens who built the weapons on this tomb world had them so well sensor-stealthed that even explorer sensors would have found nothing, since there was nothing there to find. Maybe Nash (and more to the point, Bazeck) could have kept the shields up through the first salvo from the planetary particle guns... but that doesn't do much good if the guns get to fire several salvoes before Miracht (or Enterprise) gets out of range.

Maybe this was just the trap that would have gotten ANY ship we now have that sailed into range. Just plain too big a set of weapons for us to withstand, hidden too well for our current sensor generation to detect. A deadfall that was inevitably going to land on someone. Unless that ship simply stayed out of range entirely, which would have been a violation of Starfleet standing orders.

This tells me that we should SCIENCE this, and what better way to SCIENCE than to meticulously duplicate the exact same scenario with another "unlucky" EC ship like the Courageous? :V

The Borg get all the bonuses. All of them. You can't ally with anyone though. Also you're a relentless force of nature made up of cyberzombies.

Every time a Borg wins a battle, it gains +1 to all stats from assimilation.

[Thinks about playing the Kazon]

Could be worse. Could be Pakleds.

Headcanon: This is the main reason we have the Prime Directive. To avoid shooting ourselves in the foot by trying to uplift such species :D

So all this really proves is that the Kazon are the least special species in the galaxy.

On the contrary, this makes them most special species in the galaxy. In the special Olympics sense :lol
 
Last edited:
@lbmaian :

I'm going to be honest, I really, really hope Oneiros doesn't rewrite the combat engine.

Sooner or later we're going to get into an actual war. I'm reasonably satisfied that the current combat engine is, for lack of a better term, "fair," in that we know how it works and have prepared ourselves to deal with it. If the combat engine changes, then either it'll have to change just exactly so, maintaining the balance while shifting the fulcrum it rests upon... Or it'll create unforeseen and/or counterintuitive results that cause problems for gameplay.

I don't think the combat engine pressingly needs modification. I think it is perfectly satisfactory for this game.

And... okay, I'm going to complain. Sorry, bad mood at the moment.

...

If there is one thing I do not like about this quest, and that is a serious "if," because this is the only complaint I can even think of...

It is the fact that the underlying mechanics of how things like research and ships work keep getting rewritten on the fly, in ways that are alarmingly likely to have unforeseen balance consequences.

At least when the rules are stable, you can predict the balance problems and compensate before they arise. When at least one major chunk of the mechanics is undergoing revision every month, not so much.

Brazil has decided you're cute.
Bah, at least I brought a link to the party.
The Gaeni must have such troubles with SRMD.
 
Last edited:
We joke, but if there's ever an actual outbreak of something similar in our neck of the galaxy the Gaeni and Licore are almost certainly going to be the vectors by which it spreads into our space.
 
Back
Top