Honestly that sounds absolutely bonkers to me.

And if luck is so completely paramount over say, skill and cleverness for the job I would never want to try to become an EC captain, and I would not be surprised if not many others did either.
 
I didn't really want to argue this further because there's no actual vote up on it and I don't actually have to convince anyone of anything, but....

It's sort of like, high command can only judge from the results as seen from 10,000 feet up. You can't see all of the thousand things that going into a daily routine, that feed into the final results. To some extent, commanders make their own luck by shading the odds in their favor with all of those thousand things that tip the balance. And sure, sometimes people just get unlucky. Or sometimes they get lucky! And sometimes they made that 'luck' by being being that half step ahead in some invisible fashion. High command can't know, they can only judge by results. So overall and in the very long run, you're best off rewarding 'luck' and not rewarding 'unluck'. Because maybe it wasn't luck. You can't know, from all the way back in HQ. You can only look at results.

In our very simplied game mechanics this wasn't Mbeki's fault at all. He rolled badly. No blame attached. In the game world, where the dice results are used to inform the narrative... well, who knows? It doesn't really seem like his fault from the log. In fact, I'm sure it won't be his 'fault' in any way that a board of inquiry can find. But you know, maybe if Straak had been there instead of Mbeki he would have looked at those geological scans and clued in that there was some sort of massive machinery beneath the surface, his mind making connections no one else could possibly make in time. Maybe ka'Sharren's ability to get the very best out of her crew would have let the shields hang in through two shots instead of one. Maybe the ever-cautious Thuir would have remembered the story of the 'dead world' that Straak found and ordered some extra scans before going into orbit. Maybe, maybe, maybe...

Who knows. That's the trouble with the 10,000 feet view.
 
So, on another topic, is there any desire to increase the number of research teams we have over the next few years? We have a number of T3 techs that are sitting idle, or will be soon as earlier techs finish, and it would be nice to use our research points on working on the xp of a new team, rather than the relatively more expensive 'wrap up' boosts we started last year. Of course, the later option is still very useful, but I'd rather see the broader approach continue to grow.
 
Well, I already talked about the subject @Night is lecturing me on, so I'll just repeat myself:

"The extent to which that kind of luck should be a factor in our decisions is the extent to which captains make their own luck- which wraps back around to the factors that really are under their control, but in more subtle ways. Like their ability to make their command feel confident, so that their decisions are executed with the minimum of error or trouble. Like their attention to detail meaning that their ship is not merely passing inspection, but exceptionally well-maintained, so that mechanical problems don't interfere with whatever daring trick they attempt. Like their positive attitude making it easier for them to stay creative and resourceful in an emergency."

Given the issues that are arising here, I think we need to differentiate "luck" into two categories: "fortune," and "chance."

SOME of what we call 'luck' is in fact the consequences of intangibles that we cannot easily measure on a performance metric. Good management tends to lead to organizations having good luck, or appearing to have good luck, because they are in position to capitalize on fortunate events, while minimizing the consequences of bad events. This has always been the case.

For the sake of having a separate word for it, I am going to call this 'fortunate.' A person can make themselves fortunate, by knowing how to put themselves in the path of good events, and avoid bad events. Good or bad fortune actually CAN be the cumulative result of lots of little good or bad decisions.

BUT this sort of 'luck' is very different from pure chance. Some things really are just plain random. Or they're the consequences of things that are entirely outside your control, such as enemy action, or the presence of totally unknown alien ruins on the planet you've been asigned to survey.

You can judge a captain in part by their fortune, but NOT by outcomes that are the result of pure chance.
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Example 1:

The Enterprise-B survived the ambush at 33 Fujit because Oneiros's combat app crashed the first time, and then the random number generator played favorites on his second go-around. We rationalized this as a temporal loop incident. That was chance. It was not a direct consequence of Nash being super-smart somehow, or of Nash preparing the Enterprise-B extra super-well. It wasn't even some kind of 'intangible.'

In-story, Enterprise flew through a spatial anomaly that interacted strangely with the warp core, creating the time loop. Out-of-story, Oneiros threw some dice, dice that said the Enterprise would have been destroyed- but then a completely bizarre software glitch blew up, and he had to roll the dice over again, and Enterprise pulled it off that time. Again, that was chance.

We can't say that the Enterprise-B is a super-ship, or that Nash is a super-captain, on the strength of this incident. Because it was a complete fluke, and if the whole thing had happened over again, the result would almost certainly have been much less positive. This is equally true if we look at the narrative AND if we look at the dice results.

Example 2:

Now, look at Enterprise's performance during the biophage crisis. Enterprise did more than any other single ship to get us working with the Romulans. Under Nash's command, Enterprise repeatedly helped out the Romulan Quarantine Fleet to the extent that it arguably saved that entire fleet and many thousands of Romulans from the biophage. She capped this off with her leadership during the Battle of Kadesh, during which time Enterprise managed to avoid taking ANY serious harm from the biophage, even as other explorers suffered serious damage.

That was, in some sense, 'luck.' But narratively, it was luck that was a direct consequence of Nash having the best command team in Starfleet, knowing how to get the best out of them, being quick and resourceful and doing everything in their power to optimize the performance of their ship. And mechanically, it certainly helped that Enterprise had (in effect) an Elite crew that gave them +3s on all their die rolls compared to the Romulan ships, or to Riala, or compared to a stock Excelsior like Kumari

This was Nash being fortunate, in the sense I used the word before. Her success was a direct consequence of the enormous combined pile of skills, positive attitude, and right actions taken by herself and her crew, including some consequences that were not so simple and concrete as we might expect.
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Now, if we look back over Nash's track record, we find lots of good luck. But some of this luck was chance, and some of it was fortune. Nash deserves credit for putting her crew in the way of good fortune (in mechanical terms, for conferring those +1 bonuses; in narrative terms, for all the little ways she got the very best out of her crew). But Nash does not get any kind of credit for the fact that Oneiros's combat app crashed, for instance.

By similar logic, the loss of Miracht was not due to Mbeki being "unfortunate." He didn't do anything wrong, his crew acted exactly as we'd expect. There is no sign that Mbeki 'failed' in any way that we would expect, even from an explorer captain.

He quite simply ran into a thing that overwhelmed his ship by sheer power. The same way he'd have gotten overwhelmed if Qute decided to transport Miracht out in front of a Borg cube and slather it in honey mustard or something.

My complaint here is that you are trying to take the result of chance, impersonal randomness that has nothing to do with a specific person's competence or successes. And you're trying to treat that result as if it reflects on the inherent fortune, the inner vices or virtues of a person that make them suitable for high-stakes positions of responsibility.

Basically, the only reason for doing that is "well, I know it's superstitious nonsense, and I'm doing it anyway," which is just punishing someone out of bloody-mindedness.
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Now, @Briefvoice is making a much more sensible argument here. He is arguing that (to use my terms) Mbeki failed because of poor 'fortune.' Because of some weakness, or rather the lack of any special strengths, that resulted in him being overcome by circumstances that someone else could have passed through.

This is the valid form of the argument "maybe Mbeki isn't cut out for Explorer Corps command after all." It at least makes sense, it's credible.

Notably, though, this is precisely why we have the court-martial. To go over Mbeki's actions in exhaustive detail, to glean every tiny bit of information we can possibly glean from what happened, to figure out if this was something many of our other captains could have handled, or if it was something none of them could have handled.

Maybe Straak or Thuir would have run additional scans- but maybe the aliens who built the weapons on this tomb world had them so well sensor-stealthed that even explorer sensors would have found nothing, since there was nothing there to find. Maybe Nash (and more to the point, Bazeck) could have kept the shields up through the first salvo from the planetary particle guns... but that doesn't do much good if the guns get to fire several salvoes before Miracht (or Enterprise) gets out of range.

Maybe this was just the trap that would have gotten ANY ship we now have that sailed into range. Just plain too big a set of weapons for us to withstand, hidden too well for our current sensor generation to detect. A deadfall that was inevitably going to land on someone. Unless that ship simply stayed out of range entirely, which would have been a violation of Starfleet standing orders.

Was there enough evidence to spot this in advance? Was the firepower of the defenses low enough that an Excelsior had any chance of survival? Well, we have the logs! We can have Zaardmani, the finest sensor operator in Starfleet, go over the information available. We can see what signs were and were not present. We can compare to other, comparable incidents in Starfleet history where some hidden danger was (or was not) spotted and counteracted.

But in the absence of reasons to believe that Mbeki DID miss something Straak or Thuir or Eaton would have caught, or that Mbeki DID lose in a situation that (say) Nash or Saavik would have survived... Well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to just blindly assume that he must be damaged goods.

It would make more sense in the Generic Military Service where nearly all peacetime ship losses are caused by some error of judgment on the part of commanding officers. But that isn't our reality, because we DO find our ships sometimes confronting things that are complete outside context problems.
 
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An excellent argument, @Simon_Jester. But I will add this thought:

It was Mbeki's 'fortune' that allowed nearly the entire crew to survive such a drastic event of 'chance' that destroyed the ship. Ships can be replaced, crew, not so much. It was a 'fortunate' miracle that let Mbeki save his crew, and it is such an achievement that I feel that Mbeki is still just as a qualified and valid choice for another EC command as anyone else on the list.
 
As a reminder: Picard underwent an inquest after the loss of Stargazer.

I trust Starfleet to sort through the data and give us an honest assessment of the event.
 
Really?
Explorer takes 4 years to build and I think we can replace the crew in about 3?
Or did I read that on the frontpage wrong?

The crew are living breathing people (IC)

And at the same time, we're talking about EC crew: The Best of The Best of the Best. They are literally irreplaceable because we can have two new EC ships rather than one.
 
Really?
Explorer takes 4 years to build and I think we can replace the crew in about 3?
Or did I read that on the frontpage wrong?
Ships are simply tools, yes we can train up another crew but we lose their unique experiences that make them effective at their jobs.

Equating the crew to just numbers on a page does not do them service to what they actually accomplish.
 
Technically speaking the ship is more valuable than the crew, as its the ship that accrues experience and becomes more capable even if that's supposed to represent crew veterency that doesn't transfer with them. The Miracht should been blooded IIRC which means a new Excelsior build with the same crew will be one in all the major stats less capable unless Oneiros makes the system work as probably intended rather than as implied.
 
...having the crew not be Blooded when they're all the same people would be a bit off o_O
 
...having the crew not be Blooded when they're all the same people would be a bit off o_O
Especially since we're putting them on another Excelsior.

I agree, but the way the system is shown to work gives rise to the possibility that the crew veterancy is lost. There even IC reasons for why this could happen, from losing their edge during down time whilst waiting to the ship its self having different foibles and other oddities to the Miracht. Personally I think the veterancy should transfer but well see.
 
Ships are simply tools, yes we can train up another crew but we lose their unique experiences that make them effective at their jobs.

Equating the crew to just numbers on a page does not do them service to what they actually accomplish.
Even if we DID equate the crew to numbers on a page, he'd still be wrong.

One moment, while I address Artemis' analysis with my heart switched off.



Really?
Explorer takes 4 years to build and I think we can replace the crew in about 3?
Or did I read that on the frontpage wrong?
You didn't think things through.

1) The limiting factor on our fleet, right now, is crew. It may take four years to build an explorer, but we're building explorers about as fast as we can crew them already.

2) The limiting factor on the Explorer Corps, which is exceptionally valuable to us because of the huge economic and diplomatic benefits of the five year missions, is definitely Explorer Corps crew.

3) By saving the crew of an Explorer Corps Excelsior, Mbeki has guaranteed that we'll be able to 'replace' Miracht and have the same number of Explorer Corps ships we would have had anyway. All we have to do is put Miracht's crew into the next regular 'garrison' Excelsior, one which we would not otherwise have been able to afford an Explorer Corps crew for. This will happen within a year or two, at which time the Explorer Corps fleet will be just as large as it would have been if Miracht hadn't been destroyed.

We'll have one less regular 'garrison' Excelsior than we would have otherwise, but I'd much rather lose a garrison Excelsior than an Explorer Corps one. Besides, since we won't need a regular Starfleet crew for that garrison Excelsior, those regular fleet crew can go on to operate other ships. Because our fleet is crew-limited, by saving the lives of the crew, we ultimately allow ourselves the opportunity to rebuild our fleet using only berth time and raw materials- things we can get more of quite easily.

If the crew had been lost, there would be no easy replacing them and the Explorer Corps would be, in effect, permanently diminished. This is what happened when Courageous hit a mine back in 2309- which is why it took us over three years before we could commission Stargazer as our sixth Explorer Corps ship.

Remember, we commissioned Miracht in 2306, S'harien in 2309... and we should have been able to get a sixth Explorer Corps ship in 2311, except for the setback caused by losing crew when Courageous took that hit.

If Miracht's crew had been lost, we'd need another two or three years to replenish the crew and get back up to six five year missions. As it is, we'll have our sixth five year mission going in 2313 at the latest, and the seventh will be starting at the same time it would have if this had never happened.
 
And, on a less heartless note, people are not easily-replaceable resources, and we should strive never to think of them in such a way. They are Starfleet personnel, each of them with loved ones and friends and futures to aspire to. Being Explorer Corps crews, we may eventually end up having some of them as our player character or FYM Captains or Admirals in charge of important departments or fleet assets, etc. But even if they are individually never relevant to the narrative again, they are all important because they are sapients and we are the Federation.
 
With you 100% on that. I take a certain pleasure, though, in looking at the "dispassionate" analysis of someone who's ignored the human factor, and establishing that it's wrong on its own merits. That shrugging off crew losses is bad policy even if you don't actually care about dead crew, and that people who go "oh well, they're just numbers on a page" aren't even handling their numbers correctly.

Incidentally, when it comes to the Red Shirt Protective Society, Mbeki has just handily beaten Saavik for the 2311 Matthews-Rayburn Memorial Safety Award. And he's established himself as a serious contender for the 2310s' Kaplan-Mallory Award for Captain of the Decade.

You know, the one his friend and mentor Michel Thuir picked up for the 2300s by deciding NOT to send down an away team to Ulith III...
 
With you 100% on that. I take a certain pleasure, though, in looking at the "dispassionate" analysis of someone who's ignored the human factor, and establishing that it's wrong on its own merits. That shrugging off crew losses is bad policy even if you don't actually care about dead crew, and that people who go "oh well, they're just numbers on a page" aren't even handling their numbers correctly.

Incidentally, when it comes to the Red Shirt Protective Society, Mbeki has just handily beaten Saavik for the 2311 Matthews-Rayburn Memorial Safety Award. And he's established himself as a serious contender for the 2310s' Kaplan-Mallory Award for Captain of the Decade.

You know, the one his friend and mentor Michel Thuir picked up for the 2300s by deciding NOT to send down an away team to Ulith III...

I am still really amused that our reaction to a Nameless Starfleet Redshirt Mook Captain making a perfectly reasonable and cautious decision resulted in us going "HOLY SHIT! WHO IS THIS BEAUTIFUL BASTARD!!!???!?!? PROMOTE THIS MAN!!!"
 
Even if crew weren't our major bottleneck, ignoring all the analysis above, you try to save your people because that's the basics of loyalty and we're not a corporate enterprise, we're Starfleet. We ask people to risk their lives for the service. They have to believe the service will try to save them, or we're never going to get the kind of behavior out of them we need and expect.
 
I am still really amused that our reaction to a Nameless Starfleet Redshirt Mook Captain making a perfectly reasonable and cautious decision resulted in us going "HOLY SHIT! WHO IS THIS BEAUTIFUL BASTARD!!!???!?!? PROMOTE THIS MAN!!!"
Looking back, from the perspective of someone who read everything from 2301 through 2307 or so in one big archive binge...

I think the reaction to Captain Thuir was one of the definitive moments of the quest.

Nash is awesome. T'Lorel is badass. Straak is hilarious.

But Thuir? Thuir is the captain that Star Trek has never, ever had, and has needed so very, very badly. Ever since 1966.
 
So: Starfleet crew are the best of the best, carefully selected from enthusiastic volunteers and highly trained. And thus results in them giving us no drama, they follow orders and can be trusted to do all kinds of non military things and do them competently and the very best of them can almost double their ship's ability.

This, I guess is our mechanical/narrative reward for Being the Federation. Bottlenecked slightly but we pick up value all over. It makes me wonder what the results would be in [Other Trek Nation Quest]?

Klingon ships probably can't be trusted to do science except specialist ships. And the ships occasionally explode from poor maintenance or being eaten by space at a higher rate than us... or they occasionally shoot at each other. Crew bonuses only apply to Combat.

The Romulans have crew almost as well trained and capable of doing generalist tasks and gaining experience at slightly lower rate... while having no crew bottlenecking in regular circumstances. Except the fleet must be watched like a hawk and the Tal Shiar watches you. Romulan freedom of initiative and movement is highly restricted based on trust and sometimes coups just happen. It is a fact of life.

The Cardassians have no crewing troubles but gain no experience due to conscription. Their ships are also, in general, designed to more... robust standards as to resist the heavy handed fumbling of some Lakarian street rat with six weeks of training in broom pushing.

The Borg get all the bonuses. All of them. You can't ally with anyone though. Also you're a relentless force of nature made up of cyberzombies.

Dominion forces are great! Totally loyal, highly component and motivated.... but die in a couple weeks if logistics are cut off. Also they have no initiative and will happily sit in place and die without specific direction.

Kazon have maluses to start with and your ships occasionally stupid themselves to death or die of dehydration because the Kazon have apparently forgot the recipe for water.
 
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I'm not even sure what the fight would look like.
It'd be bad though, and probably spread radiation all over the freakin' place.
Like a hair pulling fight but with phasers.
 
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