Give him an Oberth or something, if you must let him keep his rank. But don't leave him with the same ship, for gods' sakes.
There are three Oberths entering service after next turn, but we are presumably going to use their sensors to help find cloaked ships and hidden infections, so their captains need to be ready to destroy their own ship on short notice. I like the suggestion of making use of him in organizing the evacuation best.
 
There are three Oberths entering service after next turn, but we are presumably going to use their sensors to help find cloaked ships and hidden infections, so their captains need to be ready to destroy their own ship on short notice. I like the suggestion of making use of him in organizing the evacuation best.

What is meant by giving him an Oberth is that he should be commanding a small ship with little importance not a major fleet asset.
 
If you didn't have a ship shortage I'd suggest giving him a ship with just enough firepower to destroy the ship that got away and give him orders to hunt it down and not to return until the ship is destroyed. That way he'd see the consequences of his choice.
 
If you didn't have a ship shortage I'd suggest giving him a ship with just enough firepower to destroy the ship that got away and give him orders to hunt it down and not to return until the ship is destroyed. That way he'd see the consequences of his choice.
Even if we didn't that would just mean giving the Inflictor a Soyuz. The last time a single ship chased an infected freighter fleeing at warp it got infected in short order and that was a D7, significantly superior to a Soyuz.
 
Even if we didn't that would just mean giving the Inflictor a Soyuz. The last time a single ship chased an infected freighter fleeing at warp it got infected in short order and that was a D7, significantly superior to a Soyuz.
I didn't say that it was a good idea. I just like punishments that force people to face the consequences of their actions. Or inaction.
 
Quite honestly, I just don't want him as captain of Excelsior. It makes one a bit uneasy when it is blatantly obvious that the commander of the lead ship of Starfleet's most powerful and important class of ships is unable to judge himself or the situation correctly even when given warning ahead of time and directly ordered by his immediate superior.

You seem massively sure that there is a right answer and that you know what it is and that it's not what he picked.

Let me ask, how many extra people do you think they were able to transport off the ship because he refused to fire. Five? Ten? I bet it's not zero. I bet he saved at least some lives. In return, the Biophage got a transport ship and the people who didn't make it out continue to suffer. Are you prepared to tell those extra people he got out that their lives aren't worth it, that he should have killed them instead of saved them?
 
You seem massively sure that there is a right answer and that you know what it is and that it's not what he picked.

Let me ask, how many extra people do you think they were able to transport off the ship because he refused to fire. Five? Ten? I bet it's not zero. I bet he saved at least some lives. In return, the Biophage got a transport ship and the people who didn't make it out continue to suffer. Are you prepared to tell those extra people he got out that their lives aren't worth it, that he should have killed them instead of saved them?
If I'll be allowed to be blunt?

Yes.
 
You seem massively sure that there is a right answer and that you know what it is and that it's not what he picked.

Let me ask, how many extra people do you think they were able to transport off the ship because he refused to fire. Five? Ten? I bet it's not zero. I bet he saved at least some lives. In return, the Biophage got a transport ship and the people who didn't make it out continue to suffer. Are you prepared to tell those extra people he got out that their lives aren't worth it, that he should have killed them instead of saved them?
The moment the ship was infected the risk was too great. Reread the scene, it's not about extra people being saved, it's about people being saved at all, despite possible infection.
 
Let me ask, how many extra people do you think they were able to transport off the ship
"There are still uninfected lifesigns! Let me get them off! We have three hundred, but there's still over a thousand lifesigns left!"
300, for the record.
Which is actually quite a lot for an Excelsior-class to be picking up in minutes... which makes me wonder if I'm misreading.

...Probably an internal and an external diplomacy team unless there is some overwhelmingly good new option.
I'd at least consider the ship design team?
Otherwise, pretty much in agreement.
 
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Do you know what I like? We have a star trek quest. And the big discussion is not over mechanical or even narrative stuff. But questions of morality, responsibility and duty. Big picture stuff.

*So proud*

o7
 
Do you know what I like? We have a star trek quest. And the big discussion is not over mechanical or even narrative stuff. But questions of morality, responsibility and duty. Big picture stuff.

*So proud*

o7

Say what you want about Axanar but Admiral Ramirez gives a good speech about this. Just substitute the Klingon parts with the biophage.

 
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Well, now that we've established that 300 people were saved.... I think you are far too certain in your logic, and I would not want anyone commanding one of these ships who wouldn't at least consider making O'Hara's decision.
300 people sounds like a lot, but everyone on there that didn't die sure wishes they had, and it gave them another ship to hit things with. Being where we are, it could be trying to make a beeline to a core world. Millions or even billions could die.

Or it could just slam into a bigger ship with more people on it and easily kill more than 300 people. Would you be prepared to tell them it was worth it to let the plague have another ship while they scream out of the walls?
 
300 people sounds like a lot, but everyone on there that didn't die sure wishes they had, and it gave them another ship to hit things with. Being where we are, it could be trying to make a beeline to a core world. Millions or even billions could die.

Or it could just slam into a bigger ship with more people on it and easily kill more than 300 people. Would you be prepared to tell them it was worth it to let the plague have another ship while they scream out of the walls?

Weighting present good against potential (but not certain) badness in the future is one of those questions with no right answer. Maybe the next time the ship shows up it'll be blown up without much fuss.

What if it had been the other way around, and T'Faer had ordered the ship spared so it could be evacuated to the last instant, but O'Hara had decided it was too risky and blown it up? Would you be taking the position that O'Hara was in the right to disobey orders or would we be talking about court martialing him for killing 1000 people?
 
Are we really arguing about this? This is a no-brainer. The captain done fucked up. You need a VERY good reason to get away with ignoring direct orders during combat. And you need to succeed in whatever you're doing against orders. He did NOT have a good reason: denying the Infection the ship is more important than some of the people on it, and death by photon torpedo is a lot better than getting eaten by that thing. And he failed.

IF he'd successfully evac'd everyone savable, then blown the ship, I'd still want to put a black mark on his record, though it would be politically non-viable.

As it stands? He's got no business commanding a ship, and I think we seriously need to consider authorizing XOs and tactical officers to make the judgement call to fire regardless of the captain's orders in these situations.

Actually, that whole event could have been prevented if the fleet commander could have sent repeated order to fire to both the tactical officer and the captain.
 
Man, where's Section 31 when you need it.

Morally right. Pure, emotionless pragmatism is for Vulcans.

That's one of those arguments where there really isn't a right answer. I mean, I can see how it can be a morally right decision to some people, even though I'd disagree with those assessments. What is more important? To save as many lives, or to stop the infection? I wouldn't even paint it in "The Needs of the Many Outweight the Few" - is it morally right to sentence the crew to possible eternal suffering as biocircutry and allow them to potentially murder and torture countless other sentients in the Galaxy at large with them being powerless to stop it, all to assuage morality of a singular captain?

But then again, this is something everyone needs to answer themselves. I'd personally just fire a full spread of torpedoes at the freighters warp core and watch it go nova and call it a day. Do I consider it "hard choice?" No, because "hard choice" for me would be glassing the planet infected with biophage without bothering to evacuate anyone.

But to quote Sisko: "And the worst thing of all is...I think I can live with it. I can live with it."

Fundamentally though, this is a failure of Starfleet procedures. People not willing to go the required lenght like O'Hara shouldn't have to fight biophage. But they shouldn't be punished for it. Ultimately, this crisis will pass unless we fuck up and die, and dinosaurs like me and Section 31 will be put back into museum storage vault, where they belong.

Hopefully - I don't want to go on page-long tirade about how I don't think that Federation is as benevolent as it is, but my interpretation of Star Trek is...fairly unique, I feel.
 
That's one of those arguments where there really isn't a right answer. I mean, I can see how it can be a morally right decision to some people, even though I'd disagree with those assessments. What is more important? To save as many lives, or to stop the infection? I wouldn't even paint it in "The Needs of the Many Outweight the Few" - is it morally right to sentence the crew to possible eternal suffering as biocircutry and allow them to potentially murder and torture countless other sentients in the Galaxy at large with them being powerless to stop it, all to assuage morality of a singular captain?

All to save 300 people and counting. This is an important point. He saved at least 300 more people than if he had blown up the ship when first ordered to do so.
 
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All to save 300 people and counting. This is an important point. He saved at least 300 more people than if he had blown up the ship when first ordered to do so.
And condemned at least 1000, possibly more if the ship infects others, to a fate worse than death by refusing a direct order.
 
And condemned at least 1000, possibly more if the ship infects others, to a fate worse than death by refusing a direct order.

A direct order to kill 1300 refugees. You can go on about "if the ship infects others" but it hasn't, has it? That's a hypothetical in the future.

But again, I ask if the issue is his actions or his defiance of orders? If the order had been to evacuate as many civilians as possible and he had obeyed it, would we be talking about court martialing Commodore T'Faer or would we shrug and say, "Well he was the man on the scene, he was entitled to make the call."

Like, is that issue that O'Hara was wrong or is the issue that he didn't have the right to disobey orders he felt were wrong?
 
@OneirosTheWriter Can I ask some questions about some things that I thought were ambiguous? First up, how many ships were beaming up un-infected personnel from the ship? And did they all stop beaming aboard survivors when that order was handed down? And roughly how much time was there between the halt order given, and the ship escaping into warp? And how much time did it take to beam away three-hundred crew?

What I'm asking is, if more crew might have been saved if the cease-order hadn't been passed down. Bit of a long-shot for edging my point out, but the answer should be interesting, nonetheless.

1754
 
It's "just" another warp capable but uncloaked freighter, we already discovered and blew up something like 4 of those before. Its pretty much irrelevant compared to the cloaked heavy warbird they already have. The really scary news is that they have the manufacturing capacity for cloaked shuttles.
It's biological hardware that can be installed into multiple shuttles, more missiles for the Beast Biophage.

... Of course, we don't know that, for all we know the Biophage can 'manufacture' biomatter just as easily as it can build shuttles... but when it can steal stuff from just about everything, having a transport full of civies will speed up its progress significantly.

At the end of the day, we DON'T WANT to make it easier for the Biophage, in any way we can...

We could give him a desk job or something.
I'd like to hear what the man has to say for himself before passing final judgment. We heard some reports from very far away, but the person at the scene always has more information. I'm not excusing him, but I'll at least hear him out.
We have to back T'Faer, but I understand O'Hara's point of view. I'm not sure I want him out of Star Fleet completely, but I don't want him continuing to command an Explorer.
This is Star Trek. Justice that needs to be meted out in the dark isn't justice. He disobeyed a direct order, and more importantly he failed. Public Court Martial, public opinion be damned.
(and others. 4 pages of others.)
First up, militarily O'Hara failed epicly. There's no ifs or buts about this: he consigned thousands to their deaths for the lives of 300. You can say he had a blind spot in an urgent situation, or he had willfully ignored the fact that those refugees are sitting on top of a warp drive, or maybe he still have some disbelief on how fast the 'phage can take over ship systems, but at the end of the day, he failed badly because the other ship had warp drives.

(if the other ship had not warped out, he could have saved THOUSANDS. Think about it)

... and, to be honest, even Blue Kirk had done something like this (attempt unconventional tactics in the face of an enemy). I mean, seriously, orbital bombardment as a negotiation tool? From certain angles, that's an instant demotion matter. So is taunting the Romulan head-of-fleet equivalent while in the most important meeting of Federation-Romulan relations of all time. Or a multitude of other stuff...

The only difference is (a) Blue Kirk has successes, and (b) he has a string of previous successes.

And (c) he did it all in peace-time.

Think about it:
The problem here is that, in more peaceful times O'Hara's actions should be lauded. While the Vulcan's "needs of the many" usually holds true, TOS Kirk usually goes "f* that", goes for the third and very risky option, and tries to have his cake and eat it too.


The main problem here is that the opponent is the Biophage. Otherwise, O'Hara's actions is a very Federation mindset, and should be nurtured... ... ? I donno, but my gut instincts is that we should keep O'Hara around, and treat his punishment (and there should be punishment, because disobeying superiors/fleet orders must be discouraged, no matter what) with kids gloves.

Our message, with whatever punishment we give out, should say "We're in a war footing, and insubordination is discouraged to the highest order. But upholding the very mindset behind Starfleet, even in the deepest of crisis, is a virtue not matter how we shake it."

Remember, O'Hara's actions are wrong... but his MINDSET, at the end of the day, is correct.

But one thing for sure. Remember the second reboot Enterprise movie, "Into the Darkness"? We might be falling into that line of very war-like thinking here.


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"Phaser array three is under-performing, reorient and fire from array five."
... should we also give these bunch of people a stern stare here? Their miss caused the initial infection after all...
 
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In a separate post, because the point I am going to make is important and we might have missed it...
"This is SS Skegal, Mayday, Mayday, Mayday! We've been hit!"

"The shuttle didn't explode, just crashed through, shields held up to the contact."

"Biohazard warnings, we have biohazard warnings."
Did I read this right? A Biophage shuttle can BYPASS a ship's shields?
 
In a separate post, because the point I am going to make is important and we might have missed it...

Did I read this right? A Biophage shuttle can BYPASS a ship's shields?

...

Please be wrong, oh please please be wrong. The last thing we need is the shields to be bypassable. If the Biophage can go through them we might as well pack up and leave now because we already lost.
 
...

Please be wrong, oh please please be wrong. The last thing we need is the shields to be bypassable. If the Biophage can go through them we might as well pack up and leave now because we already lost.

Or develop better point defense weaponry. A shuttle isn't going to stand up against sustained fire. We blow them out of the sky before they get close and that'd be fine.
 
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