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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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aeqnai said:
I want his badge, on our desk, this time yesterday. I realize that that's a minority belief, but I really find his actions inexcusable. Countless people may be subjected to death or a fate worse than it because of his direct disobedience of orders and inability to handle a crisis situation he signed up for and was warned about. I would never trust his judgement after this.
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See, that is a various dangerous type of logic to fall into. Remember Kodos the Executioner? That was his logic, kill some to save all. The only reason firing was justified at all was that the people on the shuttle would be subjected to something worse than death. Justifying it on the grounds that anything to stop from strengthening the Biophage is acceptable is a bad idea.
 
Briefvoice said:
See, that is a various dangerous type of logic to fall into. Remember Kodos the Executioner? That was his logic, kill some to save all. The only reason firing was justified at all was that the people on the shuttle would be subjected to something worse than death. Justifying it on the grounds that anything to stop from strengthening the Biophage is acceptable is a bad idea.
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In a hostage situation where the survival chances of the hostages are close to zero if the responsible person/virus isn't stopped an high officer in his position should be able to shoot.
That is not just the case for this Phage but other enemies, for example the Borg.
Refusing to shoot because you want to save civilians in a similar situation leads to more drones, just as an example.
 
Artemis1992 said:
In a hostage situation where the survival chances of the hostages are close to zero if the responsible person/virus isn't stopped an high officer in his position should be able to shoot.
That is not just the case for this Phage but other enemies, for example the Borg.
Refusing to shoot because you want to save civilians in a similar situation leads to more drones, just as an example.
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Thats actually a somewhat bad example starfleet can and does eventually figure out how de drone people and does it when ever it can.
 
cokerpilot said:
Thats actually a somewhat bad example starfleet can and does eventually figure out how de drone people and does it when ever it can.
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And yet, find me a TNG-era captain that wouldn't shoot at a partially-assimilated ship because there is a chance of saving the crew, one by one, in the long, difficult surgical procedure that is de-assimilation, in the middle of a combat scenario. And even if you did, assimilation is peanuts to this in terms of horrificness and notable inability to cure.
 
The thing is. The situation was not hopeless. There were uninfected he was trying to evacuate. He was trying to push for time to save more lives. Not refusing to stop the Biophage. It was very risky and T'Faer made the correct call. But so did O'Hara. The outcome comes down to who had rank and a roll of the dice.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Morally right. Pure, emotionless pragmatism is for Vulcans.
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No, it was Morally wrong. On only the most black and white set of ethics is not firing morally correct here.

Cornuthaum said:
Yes, and in Star Trek they have wisely turned towards optimism and positivism instead.
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Better hope we have more people like the Vulcans in our starfleet then because there is no way the Phage will be stopped if even tenth of our fleet captains commit the same errors. The beast is an unforgiving enemy there won't be a starfleet or UFOP at all if many more mistakes like that are made.

AKuz said:
The thing is. The situation was not hopeless. There were uninfected he was trying to evacuate. He was trying to push for time to save more lives. Not refusing to stop the Biophage. It was very risky and T'Faer made the correct call. But so did O'Hara. The outcome comes down to who had rank and a roll of the dice.
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Every one involved knows the Biophage takes control of ships with within minutes, potentially seconds depending on infection site and vector. What the hell happens if we start loosing excelsiors in the same way, the galaxy gets consumed.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Better hope we have more people like the Vulcans in our starfleet then because there is no way the Phage will be stopped if even tenth of our fleet captains commit the same errors. The beast is an unforgiving enemy there won't be a starfleet or UFOP at all if many more mistakes like that are made.
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There's always an unforgiving enemy. The stakes are always high. Principles are only principles if you stick to them when it's hard, not just when it's easy.

This is the same sort of attitude that led to fire-bombing cities in WWII. "This war is so terrible that the only moral thing to do is to end it as soon as possible, no matter how terrible the actions required may be."
 
SuperSonicSound said:
No, it was Morally wrong. On only the most black and white set of ethics is not firing morally correct here.



Better hope we have more people like the Vulcans in our starfleet then because there is no way the Phage will be stopped if even tenth of our fleet captains commit the same errors. The beast is an unforgiving enemy there won't be a starfleet or UFOP at all if many more mistakes like that are made.



Every one involved knows the Biophage takes control of ships with within minutes, potentially seconds depending on infection site and vector. What the hell happens if we start loosing excelsiors in the same way, the galaxy gets consumed.
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Listen I know that this cannot be a constant trend. Our officers must be willing to enforce the Challorn Protocols. That O'Hara did not inform us that he might not be able to fully follow the Protocol is on him, he should suffer censure for that if anything. Not for trying to save lives. He and his career still have value. Just not back on the Quarantine line.

But as I said before, I will not censure a man for following his conscience in this matter.

He absolutely should not be on the qz and he should not take on larger commands but he still has value

Edit: I am enjoying the discussion BTW > : )
 
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It might be a little bit premature because we are still waiting for the report from the Enterprise, but here are my preliminary vote suggestions for next turn. I changed the format a bit to allow the vote counter to tally by task.

[] [Starfleet Command] Mobilise an Asset (1 turn)
[] [Federation Emergency Council] Mobilise an Asset (1 turn)

Probably an internal and an external diplomacy team unless there is some overwhelmingly good new option.

[] [Andorian Civil Engineering Team] Fortify Solitude Outpost (+2 C, +2 S) (2 turns)
[] [Starfleet Medical Command] Evacuate Liath V (55k) to Andor Sector (1 turn)
[] [Tellarite Mining Expedition] Scuttle Arcori III shipyards (1 turn)

Fortify the largest colony with shipyards (evacuation is impractical and it's a strategically important base), scuttle the shipyards at the colony we just evacuated and evacuate the last remaining shipyard colony. All three locations have already been targets this turn.

[] [Starfleet Infectious Disease Institute] Biophage Vaccine Research Rush - (1 turn)
[] [Vulcan Science Academy Detachment] Ulith III Biophage General Research Rush (1 turn)
[] [Starfleet Tactical Command - Tiger Team] Biophage Combat Research Rush (1 turn)
[] [Commodore T'Faer] Suicide Shuttle Countermeasures (1 turn)

Research changes as previously discussed.

[] [Starfleet Tactical Command - Runabout Recon Squadron] Scout Neutral Zone Area 2 (2 turn)

Continue scouting rimwards, coincidentally this is also the area where we suspect a previously unknown civilization to have succumbed to the Inflictor.

[] [RBZ Fleet - Commodore T'Faer] Own Initiative

T'Faer has been doing a fine job so far, no need to micromanage.
 
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Briefvoice said:
There's always an unforgiving enemy. The stakes are always high. Principles are only principles if you stick to them when it's hard, not just when it's easy.

This is the same sort of attitude that led to fire-bombing cities in WWII. "This war is so terrible that the only moral thing to do is to end it as soon as possible, no matter how terrible the actions required may be."
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Yes, we all remember the tragic necessity of stopping the plague of Dresden from spreading.
 
AKuz said:
Edit: I am enjoying the discussion BTW > : )
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Heh, have a like. :)

AKuz said:
Listen I know that this cannot be a constant trend. Our officers must be willing to enforce the Challorn Protocols. That O'Hara did not inform us that he might not be able to fully follow the Protocol is on him, he should suffer censure for that if anything. Not for trying to save lives. He and his career still have value. Just not back on the Quarantine line.

But as I said before, I will not censure a man for following his conscience in this matter.

He absolutely should not be on the qz and he should not take on larger commands but he still has value.
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I certainly understand your viewpoint and I'm mostly in agreement with you. I do have some reservations about him continuing to serve behind the quarantine line but that's only because I don't think that will remain effective for very long with the way things are going.
 
I think he should be involved with updating our rapid evacuation transporter protocols. He is highly motivated for the task due to his actions, and it is a genuinely useful thing. And he does have experience in leadership and organization. And those will not transfer over 100%, but he will be able to help outline the practical side of things as well as let the teams know how things are working out on the QZ. It should speed up research, perhaps in addition to the data already provided by Excelsior because there is someone there to explain all the details from a first hand perspective.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Starfleet is still military, isn't it?
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No.

No it is not.

While it's true that Starfleet has military responsibilities, that fundamentally is not what it is supposed to be. Real militaries wouldn't have to be careful not to look to militarized, while at the same time required to perform a minimum amount of science. Placing the defense of the Federation above Starfleet's goal "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before" is literally what got our predecessor canned.

Note that advocating a return to that policy is therefore effectively an attempt to sabotage the quest for the rest of us – even if you do it with the best of intentions – so please don't.

I'd advocate taking everyone who is unable to implement the Challorn Protocol out of the region and instead placing them in a doctrine team whose initial research goals include "how can we prevent this from happening again." Coming down to hard on him would scare off others who would act similarly from coming forward, and so endanger more lives.
 
sebsmith said:
No.

No it is not.

While it's true that Starfleet has military responsibilities, that fundamentally is not what it is supposed to be. Real militaries wouldn't have to be careful not to look to militarized, while at the same time required to perform a minimum amount of science. Placing the defense of the Federation above Starfleet's goal "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before" is literally what got our predecessor canned.

Note that advocating a return to that policy is therefore effectively an attempt to sabotage the quest for the rest of us – even if you do it with the best of intentions – so please don't.

I'd advocate taking everyone who is unable to implement the Challorn Protocol out of the region and instead placing them in a doctrine team whose initial research goals include "how can we prevent this from happening again." Coming down to hard on him would scare off others who would act similarly from coming forward, and so endanger more lives.
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Still, we don't want pure utilitarianism in the fleet. Someone needs to serve as the fleet's conscience.
 
I have to admit, if you get to choose his punishment, you are all going to have a problem. You'd need the punishment to be hard enough to show that pretending you are fit for a duty you aren't has severe consequences while also light enough to show that choosing morality isn't inherently a bad thing, just that it doesn't suit the situation.
 
Yeah Starfleet is "Militarized" or has Defence Responsibilities. There is nothing wrong in expanding military capability or pushing for it if you think it is necessary.

But Starfleet's heart will never be in it if they become a military. We would have to start an entire organization from scratch or undergo a program of generations to shift the culture.
 
I suppose part of my desire to see the guy punished comes from the impression playing Cataclysm left on me as a young teen.



As I've said before this thing is like the Borg but dialled up to a million in terms of danger.
 
The one nice thing about this crisis is that Indi Beta and Solitude are also strategically important locations in a conflict with the Romulans (Solitude also with the Klingons) and the Federation Council won't get on our case for fortifying them and equipping them with the latest anti-cloaking sensors. Not that it matters much in the grand scheme of things.
 
Quite honestly, I just don't want him as captain of Excelsior. It makes one a bit uneasy when it is blatantly obvious that the commander of the lead ship of Starfleet's most powerful and important class of ships is unable to judge himself or the situation correctly even when given warning ahead of time and directly ordered by his immediate superior. It may have had moral backing... but in the end that's just caused a worse situation, and it was a moral decision he should've known was possible, even likely, in the assignment he was given. I just don't trust his judgement anymore, either of himself as an officer or of serious situations in general. His captaincy of Excelsior means one of our largest craft is known to be headed by someone who is unable to be trusted fully.

Give him an Oberth or something, if you must let him keep his rank. But don't leave him with the same ship, for gods' sakes.
 
Courts-martial, black mark, desk job, transfer to command of Oberth or Miranda post-war. Stern memo sent to all commanders that if they cannot do what must be done they are henceforth to turn command over to the next highest ranking officer that will, temporarily relieved, and to report to HQ for reassignment to science units studying how to end the plague, with the assumption they will receive similar commands post-war (not a punishment, just temporary transfer ).

I wish we had the capability to run a "command" and "military" track, with military officers running the ship in combat and command doing everything else, bit I doubt that would ever fly.
 
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