To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- somewhere
Seems a bit much for a border adjustment to incorporate a mining colony. At least too much for me to do unilaterally with a map update. Also it's a somewhat aggressive move. IMO it's better to wait with that until the Sybdicate is dealt with, the (fist wave of) Connie-Bs are completed and we integrate the Seyek.
- Location
- Austin, TX
I'm curious what we'll do about that Cardassian listening post in five-ish years if and when it gets buried deep in our territory, provided the Seyek and Qloathi both become advanced affiliates.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
- Location
- Nova Scotia, Canada
We'll probably ask them to dismantle it. Or it could trigger the Cardassian war. Depends on how quickly they recover from their post Kadak-Tor purge.
Broken Chains is the capital for 1/4 of the year according to my omake report, I was a little surprised not to see it either.
Possible that one of those planet names is just "Broken Chains" in Orion, or the Admiral meant to say 'system'.
So @OneirosTheWriter (and everyone else) I have been thinking about Defense requirements and outposts/starbases. Now that we're getting into a lot of cases where there are more than one key system per sector, I think it deserves a rethink.
In most cases Defense requirements are for Key Systems, not for sectors. Designated Border Zones are the only exception. But on the other hand, our fleets are organized as sector fleets, with all of the ships in that sector under the command of a single commodore. When a ship is "assigned" to a key system, what that seems to mean in practice is that it is based out of there but will still spend a fair amount of time on missions throughout the sector as required. With the example of Betazed, it seems like if there are multiple key systems in a single sector, the total Defense requirement is lower than if each key system were in a different sector.
Now how do Outposts throughout the sector interact with that, and how will Starbases not in a key system interact? How we did it with the Outposts in Tellar sector and Amarkia sector was that the extra Outposts supposedly add +5 Defense for making up the requirement in Tellar Prime and Amarkia, respectively. But that doesn't make much sense, as those requirements are for the system rather than for the sector. And now we're adding a Starbase in Vega system in Sol sector. Is that going to give +5 to Sol's defense? Then why Sol and not Betazed? Is it not going to affect Defense? Then why do Outposts?
If a starbase is actually in a Key System, it makes sense that it contributes directly to Defense requirements. However if it's in a sector but not in a key system, or if we're talking about Outposts spread throughout a sector, I don't think it should work that way. What makes more sense to me is that it would slightly lower the Defense requirements for key systems in that sector. I'm not sure by how much. 5 (the benefit you get for having a Starbase actually in the same system) seems like it would be too much. Maybe lower the Defense for each key system in the sector by -2?
What does everyone think makes the most sense? Or would it be better to give up on the whole 'Defense for key systems" paradigm and have Defense requirements be for entire sectors?
In most cases Defense requirements are for Key Systems, not for sectors. Designated Border Zones are the only exception. But on the other hand, our fleets are organized as sector fleets, with all of the ships in that sector under the command of a single commodore. When a ship is "assigned" to a key system, what that seems to mean in practice is that it is based out of there but will still spend a fair amount of time on missions throughout the sector as required. With the example of Betazed, it seems like if there are multiple key systems in a single sector, the total Defense requirement is lower than if each key system were in a different sector.
Now how do Outposts throughout the sector interact with that, and how will Starbases not in a key system interact? How we did it with the Outposts in Tellar sector and Amarkia sector was that the extra Outposts supposedly add +5 Defense for making up the requirement in Tellar Prime and Amarkia, respectively. But that doesn't make much sense, as those requirements are for the system rather than for the sector. And now we're adding a Starbase in Vega system in Sol sector. Is that going to give +5 to Sol's defense? Then why Sol and not Betazed? Is it not going to affect Defense? Then why do Outposts?
If a starbase is actually in a Key System, it makes sense that it contributes directly to Defense requirements. However if it's in a sector but not in a key system, or if we're talking about Outposts spread throughout a sector, I don't think it should work that way. What makes more sense to me is that it would slightly lower the Defense requirements for key systems in that sector. I'm not sure by how much. 5 (the benefit you get for having a Starbase actually in the same system) seems like it would be too much. Maybe lower the Defense for each key system in the sector by -2?
What does everyone think makes the most sense? Or would it be better to give up on the whole 'Defense for key systems" paradigm and have Defense requirements be for entire sectors?
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Briefvoice
@OneirosTheWriter
I'd suggest moving towards doing D requirements by sector. Make the actual defense requirement met by installations cap based on the importance of what they defend, and maybe place some sort of limit on what percent D requirement can be met by installations?
Something so we're not having this silly situation were placing a starbase anywhere in the Sol Sector BUT Betazed is more efficient than placing it over Betazed for silly game-mechanical reasons.
@OneirosTheWriter
I'd suggest moving towards doing D requirements by sector. Make the actual defense requirement met by installations cap based on the importance of what they defend, and maybe place some sort of limit on what percent D requirement can be met by installations?
Something so we're not having this silly situation were placing a starbase anywhere in the Sol Sector BUT Betazed is more efficient than placing it over Betazed for silly game-mechanical reasons.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Or separate system and sector values.
- Location
- ?
Oh not more numbers, please.
We need to make Oneiros' spreadsheet so complex it makes Skynet happen
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
But then the robots will run this quest and that's no fun.
On consideration, I agree sector defense requirements make the most sense. And if/as new member worlds/key systems are added in a sector, you just increase the requirement for that sector.
It would actually make things less complex, because we don't have to try to divide the total fleet as much. Events are rolled by sector; ships get to roll to respond by sector; defense by sector would fit perfectly.
I don't see how this makes the quest either more Fun, more interesting, or easier to play. It's just complexity for the sake of complexity, eliminating a level of abstraction to eliminate abstraction.
Which is why now I'm advocating making it less complex by just doing defense requirements by sector. Dropping a layer of abstraction back down, making fleet division votes less of a headache.
If it's by sector you can just count up starbases/extra outposts in the sector, add in ships, and get a total. No worrying about whether the Starbase at Vega applies to Sol or Betazed requirements.
- Location
- Nova Scotia, Canada
I also agree that sector requirements make sense. It needs a bit more then just member worlds to fit the different types and values of sectors to the Federation but it can be easy to assign to a spreadsheet. Maybe some values based on number of member worlds, critical industry, political bonus/malus (core sector w/ no borders, safe borderzone, piracy, etc.) and if the sector is a border zone. So it would look like this (only in a nice spreadsheet):
Terran:
2 member worlds - 10
critical industry - 5
political instability (Sydraxians) - 3
Total: 18
Vulcan:
1 member world - 5
important Industry - 4
political stability (no foreign borders) - -2
Total: 7
KBZ:
0 member world - 0
no important industry - 0
political stability (stable Klingon relations) - -4
border zone - 10
Total: 6
Then when a new member world joins it just gets the new value added in (ie. the Gaeni bump Terran member worlds from 10 to 15) or when the D requirement changes the base of each world changes (ie. worlds are now 7 each instead of 5 each).
Then fleet orders would be like this:
Terran: 18 req.
2 starbases - 10
1 Excelsior (name) - 6
2 Miranda (name, name) - 4
Vulcan: 7 req.
1 starbase - 5
1 Constellation (name) - 3
KBZ: 6 req.
1 Centaur-A (name) - 3
1 Miranda (name) - 2
1 Oberth (name) - 1
It would be pretty easy to then take our fleet and sort them based on requirements.
Terran:
2 member worlds - 10
critical industry - 5
political instability (Sydraxians) - 3
Total: 18
Vulcan:
1 member world - 5
important Industry - 4
political stability (no foreign borders) - -2
Total: 7
KBZ:
0 member world - 0
no important industry - 0
political stability (stable Klingon relations) - -4
border zone - 10
Total: 6
Then when a new member world joins it just gets the new value added in (ie. the Gaeni bump Terran member worlds from 10 to 15) or when the D requirement changes the base of each world changes (ie. worlds are now 7 each instead of 5 each).
Then fleet orders would be like this:
Terran: 18 req.
2 starbases - 10
1 Excelsior (name) - 6
2 Miranda (name, name) - 4
Vulcan: 7 req.
1 starbase - 5
1 Constellation (name) - 3
KBZ: 6 req.
1 Centaur-A (name) - 3
1 Miranda (name) - 2
1 Oberth (name) - 1
It would be pretty easy to then take our fleet and sort them based on requirements.
- Location
- Australia
Yeah, I would be amenable to switching to changing garrisoning to sector-wide.
- Location
- USA
I would like to add my agreement to sector wide garrison requirements, it is less fleet distribution to track and should make it easier for people to see how fleets are assigned. More so with multiple sectors now having two or more worlds as part of the sector.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
You know, looking at the map of the Federation, it kind of becomes humbling how vast it is, especially in comparison to the other powers. The amount of Cardassian worlds that are in existence that we know of from the Karak-Tor's defection, is equatable to a single core sector of the federation. In fact, counting their homeworld, the amount of major systems they have can be counted on a single hand! It may just be because of our lack of knowledge about the other powers that border us though leading to their regions looking like barren wastelands in comparison, but if our knowledge of their space is accurate, well, if war occurs with Cardassia, the phrase that comes to my mind is "curbstomp".Using the opportunity to also claim the space up to the existing colonies Yel'urulausu and Tallow III, but otherwise leaving as large a buffer zone to Dawiar space as possible seems to make the most sense. So probably something like this:
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We have always been bigger than them, yes. It's not in question if we could win a war with Cardassia, it's in question if we could do it without further radicalizing them and if we have the political will necessary to continue operations long enough to secure a lasting peace in the event of war. War isn't an undesirable option because we'd lose, it's an undesirable option because it actually makes it harder in the long run to keep the Cardassians from oppressing other species and hurting their own people through their totalitarianism.
Occupying Cardasian space is a different problem though. Just look at what we're dealing with trying to shutdown the Syndicate, and they aren't actually a government fighting a guerilla war. No matter what they like to claim.
- Location
- Nova Scotia, Canada
Given the Obsidian Order I'm sure there are some hidden mining and research colonies we don't know about along with a shipyard or 2 that are kept secret from the Cardassian military. Though if it came to a war we have our member fleets to call on that would be another hundred ships available for covering our borders or defense so we can have 40-50 ships raiding or on offense. Combined with a dozen Excelsior vanguard means we're in good shape now, better with the Connie-Bs and great when we get our first Renaissance run finished.