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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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I definitely support doing four pushes. We NEED pushes. Badly.

Briefvoice, I don't oppose getting in another berth here or there. But I do think we need to recognize that there are a lot of other things that are frankly more important, and should collectively take up the great majority of our available political will. Maybe nine points (a high single-digit percent of our total upcoming budget) is a reasonable amount to spend, maybe it isn't. Dunno. We'll take that up in the snakepit.

Me... as I understand it (I wasn't participating then), the whole point of spending the huge political willpower windfall we gained from beating the biophage on Utopia Planitia was that it was supposed to enable our shipbuilding infrastructure to be "good enough" for quite a while.

And it seems to have worked. You should congratulate yourself, and others, on having successfully lobbied for a shipyard infrastructure sufficient unto the needs of the Starfleet.

SuperSonicSound said:
You can't run ship design analysis this way and get anything meaningful, It's basically completely wrong.



Note the 6's in everything outside of hull which sits at 3. 98% reliability is better than what we can achieve on the Ambassador with current tech using the same saucer and secondary scale Oneiros showed us for the Ambi in the example ship project.
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First, let me note that YES, trying to predict the stats of a hypothetical custom ship by averaging those of two existing ships is not actually a valid model. It is a crude approximation I made in order to get a point across.

So basically, let's call my notional ship with its impossible half-integer stats the USS Bastardized Innumerate (an accurate description). We'll call your "why Simon is wrong" medium cruiser... the USS Simon Is Wrong.

Now, comparing Simon is Wrong to Bastardized Innumerate, your cruiser has...
1) A much squishier hull than mine. Other stats average to a bit better. Non-hull stats on the Bastardized Innumerate average 5.5, yours average 6. Overall, mine average 5.5, and so do yours.
2) Significantly lower SR cost than the "bastardized innumerate," slightly lower BR cost. Also, cruiser build time, which I wasn't confident of when I started my take on it.
3) A crew that takes significantly less officers and enlisted than I crudely 'predicted,' but also significantly more techs- the one group we keep running out of.
4) Reliability comparable to what the Renaissance has, and what the Ambassador probably SHOULD have if we time things so that the prototype is ready in 2325 as in canon, instead of trying to rush it and get started right this minute.
5) Lighter weight than my "bastardized innumerate," but not enough lighter that we can fit the thing in anything other than dedicated two-megaton cruiser berths that don't exist, OR three-megaton berths we'd need for Ambassadors.

I don't disagree that USS Simon is Wrong is objectively a better ship than the USS Bastardized Innumerate. Which is totally unsurprising, since Bastardized Innumerate obviously cannot exist just by virtue of occupying a midpoint between the Ambassador and Renaissance canon designs. And Simon is Wrong HAS got stats competitive with an Excelsior, at a lower cost...

But as I already pointed out, the Excelsior is a twenty year old design. I honestly doubt that the USS Why Simon is Wrong would have much practical advantage over an Excelsior-A refit. Also, if we tried to build any great numbers of them, we would start to run short of techs- the same problem we have with the science vessels.

So personally, I think that you've proven me wrong about the exact stats of the ships (which anyone with a brain knew would be wrong). But not about the original point my deliberately crude example was intended to make.
 
In regards to a case for, the main one is for an affiliate, rather than a non-member - Risa, to counterbalance our more aggressive members.
 
Briefvoice said:
On who, and what is the case for each?

Note, I'm totally willing to do four pushes, but I'd like to see the case for specific species rather than just "let's push a lot". That helps set priorities.

Also, I believe we completed some Xenopsych tech that will make pushes more effective so there's that.
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Seyek because they're one decent push from affiliate status. Qloath, Yrillians, and Gretarians are all further away, but we should start working on them as soon as possible to limit Cardassian influence near our home sectors.

Basically, let's do what the Federation does best and get integrating.
 
Yes.

Basically, we are now well underway to completely integrating the 'first wave' species, the ones we made a serious effort to recruit before the biophage.

We've partially integrated the 'second wave' species we made a serious effort to reach out to after the biophage, but before the Cardassians got extremely frisky in 2307-8 or so. We're still working on a number of them, but they're getting there. And they're far enough into our camp by now that we don't have to worry about them turning on us, either.

What we need to think about is recruiting the third wave, the species who only really got to know us after our shadow-war with Cardassia had fully begun. The ones we need to convince that we can protect them from Cardassian aggression, and that a unified front against Cardassia is preferable to simply surrendering to the Cardassians' will.

We need to accomplish that, and soon, if we want to avoid creating a situation where the Cardassians have numbers and resources more comparable to our own... And where they have numerous groups of proxies and agents and cannon fodder located on our frontier.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Yes.

Basically, we are now well underway to completely integrating the 'first wave' species, the ones we made a serious effort to recruit before the biophage.

We've partially integrated the 'second wave' species we made a serious effort to reach out to after the biophage, but before the Cardassians got extremely frisky in 2307-8 or so.

What we need to think about is recruiting the third wave, the species who only really got to know us after our shadow-war with Cardassia had fully begun. The ones we need to convince that we can protect them from Cardassian aggression, and that a unified front against Cardassia is preferable to simply surrendering to the Cardassians' will.
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Resolving the Caitian-Dawiar conflict peacefully would be a large boon to that, as it shows that not only are we helping our allies, but that we are serious when it comes to our peaceful and diplomatic claims. Treating someone that we have all rights to be annoyed with respectfully should reassure some of the species wondering how we're any better than the Cardassians.
 
[X][EARTH] Allow the Excelsior build in Ana Font Shipyard

[X][NAME1] Odyssey
[X][NAME2] Avandar

[X] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu

[X][BUILD] Excelsior, 6 Constitutions, Renaissance Prototype
 
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Omake - An Amarki Heritage Moment - Iron Wolf
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    • Simon_Jester said:
    If any of those people get even one omake worth of content to flesh them out, or something, I will consider them very strong contenders. ;)
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    AN AMARKI HERITAGE MOMENT: Salnas Defends Her Thesis

    Salnas, who was not yet the Wise, stepped into the Thesis Arena. Her research assistant, Awa, followed behind with a stack of papers under his arm. She was here to defend what Humans might call her Doctoral Thesis, although the translation for the title she was vying for was more accurately something like "Countess of Astronomy." Such titles were not handed out easily, particularly not in Salnas' field. The consensus had been strong for over a dozen generations and, so finding new discoveries that also did not bring down the wrath of the establishment was hard. Salnas' theory itself was firmly controversial, attested to by the fact there were ten interlocutors on her panel, looming over her from the desk that covered a quarter of the outer circle of the Thesis Arena.

    The panel chair stood and spoke, "Salnas, Daughter of Senna, Viscountess of Astronomy and member of the Belted Order, you have been called today to defend your thesis on the movement of planetary bodies. In addition, you have presented a second thesis on the shape and size of our planet. Were both thesis to be granted to you, you would step up to the rank of Countess and automatically be made a Knight of the Inquiry for your boldness. Should you fail, you risk life and limb. Do you wish to proceed in this matter?"

    Salnas sighed. If she ever became Duchess of Scientific Thought, she was going to reform this business. Her father had died in the same spot, arguing things much less radical than herself.

    She put her hand on her blade, "I agree. I, Salnas, argue that the current model of planetary movement..."

    A member of the panel stood up and drew his blade.

    "... is outdated and wrong, and the bodies in the heavens do NOT orbit the body of All-Father Molan..."

    The Marchioness Golanna gave Salnas a cruel grin and stood up to join the others.

    "Instead orbiting around the flaming body we know as Foresh, or what I call our primary star,"

    Another panelist stood up with a huff, fumbling for his blade. What, did he not like the term?

    "...and that our planet is not the blanket which rests on the dreaming body of Azathoth, and instead is round, like a ball, and that the discs we have observed in the heavens are in fact, similar to our own."

    Another panelist rose.

    "In short -- we are not the unique guardians of a god. We are one planet among many."

    Three final panelists rose, leaving three sitting behind the panel. Those who had drawn blades were arraying themselves around her at the perimeter of the Arena floor. Salnas drew her own blade with deep regret. At least by rules of honor they'd be coming one at a time.

    "One last time, before we begin, Salnas," said the panel chair, still seated, "Your own father did die here in defense of his Thesis. While we members do not wish to kill, and nor should yourself, such accidents occur. I beseech you, given the opposition arrayed, to reconsider."

    Salnas snapped her free hand, "Awa, the presentation, please." Her assistant gulped and planted an easel behind her, putting up the first diagram, "Respectfully, honored chair and Marchioness, I decline your offer of mercy and wish to continue with my defense."

    "Very well," she slammed her gavel, "Begin."

    Marchioness Golanna pushed the man who'd huffed at the term star forward. Salnas' blade met his first clumsy cut. Golanna was going to tire her out before 'accidentally' finishing her off, she suspected. Salnas slapped him with the flat of her blade, "If you'll look at," she quickly glanced back to make sure Awa had put up the right diagram, "Our first chart, it shows the shadows which indicate the shape of the planet must be..."

    It continued like this for several minutes. One panelist went down, then another, clutching a leg that was now sans all ligaments. Salnas could have been a surgeon. She probably should have been-- they didn't have to go through this.

    "... and your observations on the movements of the bodies," the Chair asked her, as a thrust from a panelist cut open Salnas' cheek, "Can you show us the mathematical proofs of their orbits?"

    "Yes," Salnas said, fighting her way back to the easel. Golanna was still looking at her with a opportunistic gleam in her eye, as Salnas duelled with one hand and scribbled on the parchment with charcoal in another.

    And still, it went on. By the end of it, Salnas was in the upper observation benches, the blood-soaked floor and groaning forms of six of her interlocutors scattered on the floor. Golanna was struggling in Salnas' chokehold. Salnas was covered in cuts, her ribs were bruised, and Golanna had lopped off half of her left ear. The panel was conferring when Golanna finally passed out and Salnas' blood-spattered form rose to meet their judgement of her academic material.

    The chair rose, "Salnas, today you have defended your Thesis against all attackers. And, in doing so, argued logic that cannot be denied. Your ascension to Countess of Astronomy is assured, and our understanding of the cosmos will never be the same," she bowed to Salnas, "The work your father started has been completed. Thank you."

    Salnas continued to change the Amarki understanding of astronomy for thirty years, and eventually did reform the process by which Amarki doctoral and master's candidates defended their ideas, ushering in a new era of progress. For this, she is irrevocably part of our Amarki History.

    This has been a Heritage Moment, brought to you by the Amarki Historical Society in partnership with the Ancient Reenactment Group.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • For me pushes on
    Seyek- good sized power near the cardassians and very close to Affiliate level
    Qloath-race of explorers also near cardassians, we have had good interaction so far so getting them to Affiliate and eventually member, they seem to fit into the Federation
    Yrillian - right on our borders and I do not want to allow the cardassians more influence there.
    Gaeni-push them over the 300 mark by the end of the year for more income or Rigellans to get them closers to joining
     
    anon_user said:
    That's Selnas, with an 'e', @Iron Wolf.
    Nice, though!

    I had thought about a time travel story, myself.
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    B-but...

    Leila Hann said:
    Or Salnas, credited with the discovery that their homeworld was round and orbited the sun.
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    IS THIS A BERENSTIAN BEARS THING AGAIN? WHAT UNIVERSE IS THIS? DID NELSON MANDELA DIE IN PRISON?!?!

    (it's funny because I spelled it with an E, checked that post, and changed it to Salnas :V)
     
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    Leila Hann said:
    We could always name it after Lord Gaela, the wise patrician who acted as patron to the various scientists and engineers who created the first Amarki warp drive and founded their first interplanetary colony.

    Or Neleyha, who ended the War of the Three Empires before it could turn nuclear.

    Or Salnas, credited with the discovery that their homeworld was round and orbited the sun.

    Or any of the many, many other Amarki historical figures that any one of you could pull out of your ass as easily as I just did.
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    anon_user said:
    That's Selnas, with an 'e', @Iron Wolf.
    Nice, though!

    I had thought about a time travel story, myself.
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    Oh, beaten.
     
    Anyways @anon_user there's two other figures to write about! Anne Usha goes back in time to build a ship so one of them can do [HISTORICAL EVENT]. Note: the historical event involves a duel.

    It always involves a duel.
     
    I'm pretty sure the Klingons are right. :D

    I have now fixed my misspelling of Salnas's name.

    Also, Amarki thesis defenses. Wow. Fixing that was definitely a good idea, or the Amarki would still be in the iron age.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    I'm pretty sure the Klingons are right. :D

    I have now fixed my misspelling of Salnas's name.

    Also, Amarki thesis defenses. Wow. Fixing that was definitely a good idea, or the Amarki would still be in the iron age.
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    Lest we judge the Amarki too harshly, let us not forget Tycho Brahe got into a duel with one of his students over the accuracy of his star data and lost his nose in the process.

    Besides, there are some advantages to the idea. People would be more careful about publishing things they were completely sure of, leading to a reduction in spurious or speculative theses. Plus, all the exercise would mean the surviving scientists lived longer. Finally, it encourages scientists to preemptively prepare for their thesis. The best thesis defense is a thesis offense, after all.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    Also, Amarki thesis defenses. Wow. Fixing that was definitely a good idea, or the Amarki would still be in the iron age.
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    I was originally considering it being explicitly to the death but then I had doubts you'd even have ten qualified panelists with the turnover that'd generate. :V

    Nervos Belli said:
    Besides, there are some advantages to the idea. People would be more careful about publishing things they were completely sure of, leading to a reduction in spurious or speculative theses. Plus, all the exercise would mean the surviving scientists lived longer. Finally, it encourages scientists to preemptively prepare for their thesis. The best thesis defense is a thesis offense, after all.
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    Also, because of the low admittance of new members into their ranks due to all of them getting beat in duels, the astronomy panel self-selects for older, more tired people, eventually ensuring weight of numbers will be outdone by their age! Well, theoretically. Cynically the panel could approve a few members a year with some subtle reinterpretations of the orthodoxy to ensure they have a reasonable amount of younger fighters to defend against more radical opponents, but who would do such a thing?!?!?! These are scientists, not politicians!
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    Now, we COULD design a medium cruiser that was smaller (say, 1.5 million tons), and sure, that would cost significantly less than an Excelsior. But it would also offer only a very, very narrow performance increase over the Renaissance-class. And we'd have to spend... I don't know, easily 60-100 political will to get the project started, plus needing build ANY berths capable of handling this new ship, aside from the ones we're already using for Excelsior/Ambassador production.

    It just isn't worth it.
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    A C6 S6 H4 L6 P5 D6, 1.8mt Cruiser is doable for 180BR/110SR. Trade some reliability for less SR usage if you wanted too.

    1.5mt is pretty much pointless, there's 1mt berths and 2mt berths. A (C4 S5 or C5 S4 ) H3 L5 P4 D5, 100BR 80SR 1mt Cruiser might be possible soon, sitting at 97.1% reliablity atm.
     
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    Out of curiosity, what does one of the better research improvements, like a 2% less power required for shields, actually net us in say a custom Explorer? 3 SR per ship? I understand it's a cumulative effect, but wanted to understand if it's miniscule amounts, or more.
     
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