Our ships need to function not merely so they don't explode, but so they can carry out the necessary functions of Starfleet. If there are three ships in a sector, it's not acceptable to take one off station every so often to deal with a breakdown. More than just ship hulls are at stake.
Yeah, but think of all the events they WON'T fail in the years of service that they won't be in drydock.

Honestly, not retroactively getting reliablity ratings assigned to our ships almost feels like a disservice, since it means we have no opportunity to really observe how the breakdowns work. Closest we've had was when we bailed out that Gaeni ship, when the Warp Core rolled a 10 on the funny incident chart.

If that was a typical event, than it means other ships can bail our guys out, and that even the worst rolls aren't unresolvable.

But it is past sleepy time for me now. good luck with the squabbling! Try to set something on fire, the pretty colors are very relaxing.
 
[x] Briefvoice

The tricky thing about the Klingon/Romulan situation is the Khitomer Accords. We should do our best to keep the two from full-on war, though of course that's more the Federation government's job than ours.

With what we now know about Cardassian fleet numbers, and with our own fleet growing fairly rapidly, I think it might be time to start giving the Cardassians a taste of their own medicine and actively undermining their resource-harvesting in the CBZ. Put bounties on freighters, actively help the Apiata find and defend new SR mines, etc. If we can slow their own fleet construction by any significant margin, we can win this easily. Maybe also use the idea that was put forward earlier in the thread and disable the next cardassian warship we see, impound the ship, and arrest its crew on piracy charges. Denying yet another Jaldun (or whatever) to the enemy, while also hopefully forcing them to open diplomatic relations to prove that their men are not pirates.
 
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I think the best way to handle the reliability debate is pretty simple.

If and when we actually get around to designing a ship and building it from scratch:

1: We'll give the Design Board(TM) the overview of what we want. (IE: We'd like a high science, high X, ship that fits in an Y berth to replace the Z.)
2: The design board spends some time debating over various designs. Odds are, now that we're actually working on building a ship rather than just theoretical spreadsheet dickwaving, a decent chunk of people from the main thread migrate over to discuss.
3: Eventually, the design board brings back a few different designs to be voted on in the main thread proper, at different reliability levels. Say, a 99%, a 97%, a 95%, and a 93%.
4: Everyone votes on which ship they like best.

Problem solved.

Also:

[X] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu
 
I think the best way to handle the reliability debate is pretty simple.

If and when we actually get around to designing a ship and building it from scratch:

1: We'll give the Design Board(TM) the overview of what we want. (IE: We'd like a high science, high X, ship that fits in an Y berth to replace the Z.)
2: The design board spends some time debating over various designs. Odds are, now that we're actually working on building a ship rather than just theoretical spreadsheet dickwaving, a decent chunk of people from the main thread migrate over to discuss.
3: Eventually, the design board brings back a few different designs to be voted on in the main thread proper, at different reliability levels. Say, a 99%, a 97%, a 95%, and a 93%.
4: Everyone votes on which ship they like best.

Problem solved.

Also:

[X] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu
Right, I'll be taking point three over to the design thread, and then bug them to do that for all of their hypothetical designs. Power to the people!

To Dreamland!
 
[x ] Rear Admiral Shey ch'Tharvasse

+2 on relationship gain events is kind of huge. Those seem to be fairly common and often have other benefits for success and costs for failure, so its +2 on a lot of important rolls.
 
In that case, looking at the map, Risa and Lecarre are each other's closest neighbors.

...omake time.
Risa is equally close or slightly closer to Kharhazad (Dawiar/warrior dwarves), and for all we know the Klingons have been expanding in their direction asl well, but that doesn't exactly make things better for them...

[x ] Rear Admiral Shey ch'Tharvasse

+2 on relationship gain events is kind of huge. Those seem to be fairly common and often have other benefits for success and costs for failure, so its +2 on a lot of important rolls.
Gaining +2 to the roll would be huge. This just increases the result from +25 to +27. We get maybe 8 such events a year? For a total of about +16. +10pp buys us another diplomatic push, average result +17 on non-affiliate, +68 on affiliate, and we get to choose the target. It also allows us to pick a new head for the Explorer Corps, with an actually useful bonus.
 
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Risa is equally close or slightly closer to Kharhazad (Dawiar/warrior dwarves), and for all we know the Klingons have been expanding in their direction asl well, but that doesn't exactly make things better for them...


Gaining +2 to the roll would be huge. This just increases the result from +25 to +27. We get maybe 8 such events a year? For a total of about +16. +10pp buys us another diplomatic push, average result +17 on non-affiliate, +68 on affiliate, and we get to choose the target. It also allows us to pick a new head for the Explorer Corps, with an actually useful bonus.

When I read "cube" I assumed the Lecarre were a bit further east, making them the same distance from the Qloath that Risa is from Kharhazad, but looking at the new map, yeah, Risa is closer to the Dawiar.

Still writing that Omake.
 
Math time

So, ultimately, unreliability is a delayed cost in terms of possible failed or missed events, and a cost of repair in terms of drydock time and resources.

My mental modeling has been to treat an 'average' malfunction as a year of repair needed. Hilarious events are going to be less bad, ship blows up is going to be much more bad, and on average, repairs will less time and more resources, but for estimation, it gives me a very easy value to work with.

If we are designing ships for a 30 year life, then every ~3% is going to mean one year of needing repair, and 1 drydock per 30 ships. For explorers, that means missing 4 events (out of 120) every 30 years from malfunctions, and possibly 1 that fails dramatically due to a breakdown in the middle. This also means effectively an extra year of build time per 30 life per 3%.

An extra stat is going to give a +1/36 to +6/36 depending on how hard an encounter is. So consider it about +3/36 per stat, and if each stat is a 1/6 chance, then a plus one gives +3/216 or +1/72 bonus.

So +2 Stat Bonus is about +4/144 extra encounter successes (.0277). Which is a little less than the loss rate of 4/120 of drydock time (0.0333).

So by that, you need to beat a +2 bonus per 3% failure for a general ship to make sense for events. For a specialized ship you may be able to have a lower ratio for the focus. (If you assume the average downtime equivalent cost is only half a year, then you get a break-even point of +1/3%, but given the high cost of catastrophic events, I'm not using that as my mental model cost. Once we have a few incidents, we can better assess this value.)

For combat, you can do a much simpler Combat Stats vs. Chance of presence analysis.

If we do use lower reliability ships for sector duty, we will need a repair substitution reserve, and can likely make a guess about how big it is.

/Math time.
 
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While your counter points have merit, there's a few flaws. First, I have neither the time, nor the inclination to aquire and use the spreadsheet, which is true for a large chunk of the voters here. Did you know that the design sheet has gone through multiple iterations already?

And while your right that I should have gone through the design thread first, I was discouraged by the fact that every design posted adheres to the 97-98% gold standard, and that some of the more vocal contributors regularly insist that anything lower is practicaly inviting a ship to blow up every year, I didn't think they'd particularly care about one plebs opinion.

So I decided to go over their heads, and get the opinions of a WHOLE BUNCH of plebs, instead. One reason for that is because, as the end users and primary voting base, you are very influential to what the ships will end up looking like.

Another reason is, despite being the end users and primary voting base, you guys are CRIMINALLY uninformed.

Do you remember when the Renaissance was declared unbuildable? Do you know why that was? It was because it's reliability was in the low 90s.





AND NOBODY SAID ANYTHING. I've already found someone who would have been willing to approve it as is, but they never had a chance to say that, because all the design thread said here was ''ope, can't be done', and everyone took that at face value!

If Oneiros hadn't arbitrarily raised the reliability to 98% (which, again, is there gold standard) than they would still refuse to build it, despite our need over here for a new cruiser, because it didn't MEET THEIR STANDARDS!

*Pause for breath*

Look, I get having a separate design thread to avoid clutter, but when that thread withholds important information, deliberatly or otherwise, forgive me if I decide to put that decision back in the hands of the primary thread.

Chew on that and get back to me, I need to make some fries with all this salt I'm apparently generating (maybe some popcorn).
We all considered the Rennie dead at that point because a 7% annual failure rate per ship was considered too high, especially when the Warp Core and Hull were the 2nd and 3rd least reliable components on the ship.
Since a bad roll on either Hull or Warp Core can lead to a critical existence failure, and the Rennie has relatively weak Science so it's less likely to be able to fix themselves in the event of a Bad Thing happening, it was considered both unethical and a bad gameplay decision by most of the SDB members to OK a ship that had that high a chance of spontaneously combusting. We had more effective designs that could be researched in the Rennie's place, if we were willing to use bigger berths to do it.

Could we have been more effective at communicating the details to the main thread? Yes, but the main thread wasn't particularly interested in the details of shipbuilding, which is part of the reason the SDB thread was made in the first place(2nd part was to remove all the ship designs cluttering things up).
 
When I read "cube" I assumed the Lecarre were a bit further east, making them the same distance from the Qloath that Risa is from Kharhazad, but looking at the new map, yeah, Risa is closer to the Dawiar.

Still writing that Omake.
The first glace can be a bit misleading because Arqeniou is above the average plane and Gervanis below. I tried to but their projections onto the average plane in a square, i. e. the cube being parallel to the average plane. Figuring out where Gervanis would be if the cube was inclined would be complicated.
 
(Rixx is the captial of Betazed according to Memory Beta. Let's honor our new members.)

I'm not opposed to honor new members, but I'm not sure naming it after a capital city makes much sense. There's doesn't seem to be much about the history of Betazed, so maybe we can just make up a historical figure?

Also, wasn't their a bunch of hooplah about honoring the Amarkians? The name Aelin was thrown around a lot then, though I personally think it's too early to name a ship that.

I'm picking Sulu because I want him to be the next Admiral of Starfleet, and this is how to make that happen. If you're not interested in having Sulu as our next PC, don't worry so much about picking him. But this is how to get him as a PC.

Hmm, if Kahurangi retires in 2011, that's only 2 years as a vice admiral for Sulu, and in my opinion, that's too short to be considered eligible for the top dog position.

But maybe we can delay Kahurangi's retirement. Idea: ensure that a war breaks out next year with the Cardassians, so that it forces Kahurangi to stay on until the war is prosecuted.

...that was meant as a joke at first, but now I'm seriously considering it.
 
But maybe we can delay Kahurangi's retirement. Idea: ensure that a war breaks out next year with the Cardassians, so that it forces Kahurangi to stay on until the war is prosecuted.

...that was meant as a joke at first, but now I'm seriously considering it.
That is an absolutely horrible idea, and goes completely against how Starfleet and the Federation do things.
 
I'm not opposed to honor new members, but I'm not sure naming it after a capital city makes much sense. There's doesn't seem to be much about the history of Betazed, so maybe we can just make up a historical figure?

Also, wasn't their a bunch of hooplah about honoring the Amarkians? The name Aelin was thrown around a lot then, though I personally think it's too early to name a ship that.



Hmm, if Kahurangi retires in 2011, that's only 2 years as a vice admiral for Sulu, and in my opinion, that's too short to be considered eligible for the top dog position.

But maybe we can delay Kahurangi's retirement. Idea: ensure that a war breaks out next year with the Cardassians, so that it forces Kahurangi to stay on until the war is prosecuted.

...that was meant as a joke at first, but now I'm seriously considering it.

*Whaps on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.*

"BAD QUESTER, NO INCITING WAR WITH THE CARDASSIANS"

> : P

I think we're saving an Amarki name for the next explorer? I think we should try to have our explorers' names drawn from a member's culture if that member has been in the Federation the entire time that the ship was under construction. Seems a good rule of thumb.
 
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[X][EARTH] Allow the Excelsior build in Ana Font Shipyard

[X][NAME1] Diversity
[X][NAME2] Rixx

[X][BUILD] Excelsior, 6 Constitutions, Renaissance Prototype

[X] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu
 
Okay vote time!

As I said, I want my Connies and I'm willing to budget political will to make that happen. So I'm backing Briefvoice's "six Connies" plan.

[X][BUILD] Excelsior, 6 Constitutions, Renaissance Prototype
2309Q1 - Start an Excelsior build in Utopia Planitia berth vacated by the Caitian ship; allow Tellarites to begin building an Excelsior for themselves in Tellar Prime berth.
2309Q2 - Start three Constitution-B builds: 1 in new Lor'Vela Orbital Construction Facility 1mt shipyard opening in Q2, 1 in UP 1mt berth after the Yukikaze finishes its refit, and 1 in new 3mt UP berth opening in Q2
2309Q4 - Start three Constitution-B builds; in SF berths freed up by launching Centaur-Bs; 1 in 40 Eridani berth. Start Renaissance prototype in new UP 1mt berth opening in Q2.

Furthermore...

[X][EARTH] Allow the Excelsior build in Ana Font Shipyard

[X][NAME2] Rixx

I'm pushing for non-human names as much as possible in the near future, as a counterweight for using 'legacy' TOS-era names for the Constitution-Bs. Does anyone have any ideas other than Odyssey for the new Excelsior? Especially with a United Earth ship being built that will definitely have one of those nice stolid Terran names. So I don't know what to do for NAME1. So far, Odyssey is the only suggestion I've seen.

...

I'm torn on the Tactical promotion. I want Sulu to be in high positions. And he's something like seventy years old, so I'm honestly not sure he's going to be around that long (although if the actor who plays him is any precedent, Sulu is aging unusually gracefully, I suspect). On the other hand, grooming Chen as a successor makes sense, and ch'Tharvasse has seniority in grade by a considerable margin.

All three are strong candidates, two can make strong claims to our personal loyalty and the third is, well, a living legend. With Kahurangi's retirement coming up, we should seriously consider her successor, is Ibmaian notes.

Hm. Patricia Chen was 44 in 2300 and is still in her early fifties now. I think she can reasonably be passed over for promotion. She's got quite a bit of time in grade now, granted, but she's also got plenty of time left if she isn't pressured into retirement. Let her wait at Utopia Planitia for a while, I think. Her background is Explorer Corps, which is great, but they're heavily focused on active ship operations and independent deep space commands. if we're grooming her for high command, having more time working with logistics and shipbuilding will help round her out.

Sulu's old for his rank, but clearly still sharp, and fast-tracking him through the admiral ranks won't seem very questionable. Also, +10 political will per turn is a really good bonus.

ch'Tharvasse is in her early sixties if the birth year on the Googledoc is a guideline. I'm not sure if Andorian life expectancy is exactly like that of humans, but while she has seniority in grade... she hasn't struck me as very inspired. Has she done anything specifically impressive as a chief of staff?

My vote is to bump Sulu into Tactical, and try to angle for a promotion for ch'Tharvasse and/or Chen in the aftermath of Katsuragi's retirement, with Sulu taking the top position.

[X] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu
 
*Whaps on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.*

"BAD QUESTER, NO INCITING WAR WITH THE CARDASSIANS"

> : P

I think we're saving an Amarki name for the next explorer? I think we should try to have our explorers' names drawn from a member's culture if that member has been in the Federation the entire time that the ship was under construction. Seems a good rule of thumb.
That is an absolutely horrible idea, and goes completely against how Starfleet and the Federation do things.

While starting a war next year is indeed a horrible idea, I don't think @Ibmaian's suggestion is completely off. Unless something happens to tip the balance hugely and visibly in our favor, we are going to be fighting the Cardassians sooner or later. I wouldn't be against starting that war ourselves, using whatever latest atrocity they've committed against us as the inciting incident, when and if we see an advantageous moment to do so.

Not next year though. Unless the Cardassians suddenly lose a couple of destroyers to a random space wedgie, we'll need more ships before we can even think about doing this.
 
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This is probably going to sound dumb, but didn't we get 30 RP to spend on the topics in the Rennaisance Project once the project was approved? Have they been spent yet?
 
As far as age goes, remember that McCoy was still alive and active in the 2360s. He did it the hard way too; no time travel. And he was among the older of the Enterprise senior staff. Human life expectancy seems to be stretched by about 50%.
 
First off, I'm not advocating for low reliability in favor of stats, but I need to point out that this math analysis is off.

If we are designing ships for a 30 year life, then every ~3% is going to mean one year of needing repair, and 1 drydock per 30 ships.

3% failure repair rate means 95% reliability, due to 60% chance of at least serious failure upon hilarious breakdown event.

Also, starbases can do some minor repairs, and as research is pored into them, they'll be able to repair more.

edit: Also, it's likely that hilarious breakdowns are themselves events that can be passed, so the actual serious failure rate is probably lower.

An extra stat is going to give a +1/36 to +6/36 depending on how hard an encounter is. So consider it about +3/36 per stat, and if each stat is a 1/6 chance, then a plus one gives +3/216 or +1/72 bonus.

This isn't correct and it's way too simplistic. There are multiple rolls involved in an event, and there are at least two that are affected by the ship's stats: the response roll, and the event success roll(s).

Information we know so far (AFAIK):
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 301
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 302 (analysis)

The response roll for an unplanned event is a (2d6 + <defense> + <presence or science>) >= 3d6. For a measly Constellation, this is 2d6+5>=3d6, which is ~70%. Incrementing one of the relevant stats results in 2d6+6>=3d6, which is ~78%.

The event roll is 2d6 + <relevant stat> >= difficulty DC. Difficulty DC is highly variable, but the example shows a hard DC of 11 for non-EC-ships like Constellations. For science hard difficulty event, this is 2d6+2>=11, which is ~28%. Incrementing science results in 2d6+3>=11, which is ~42%.

This is all still a very incomplete analysis because it depends on the ship, all the possible difficulty DCs, how the event handles multiple ships, etc., and we don't even know what the response roll is for a planned event.

But clearly, even a single stat increment can have a large impact.

(Note: I used anydice.com for computing the probabilities.)



Now with all that said, I think explorers should have at least 98% reliability, because the EC explorers are guaranteed an event every quarter, the majority of which will net significant benefits, and sometimes EC explorers are sent on critical missions, like Nash's deniable super secret mission.

For cruisers, I'm fine with 95% reliability, escorts probably lower than that, because of lower chances of sector events. This however depends on having sufficient number of starbases and berths for repairs, scaling with the number of ships.

Warp core and hull reliability obviously need to be minimized maximized to prevent outright ship loss. 99-100% for explorers, maybe 98% for other ships.

Also, the whole "trade reliability for stats" point may be moot if we're aiming for canon ship designs. In those cases, we have to meet those stat lines to get all the vague benefits of canon designs (the only concrete known one being the reduced pp cost). So in those cases, it's only a question of sufficient reliability.

edit: fix stupid errors
 
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Once we've got a solid corps of cruisers (the ConnieBees should do nicely) to backstop our explorers while the lesser ships patrol our core sectors, I think we can handle the Cardassians rather well. They no doubt have defense requirements too, and other enemies and threats they need to guard against.

I honestly think we need direct diplomatic contact with the Cardassians, and we might be well served by openly asking them to state their intentions towards us- peace, or war? I, for one, would like to hear what the top-level authorities of the Cardassian state have to say about that question, upon being asked directly.

As far as age goes, remember that McCoy was still alive and active in the 2360s. He did it the hard way too; no time travel. And he was among the older of the Enterprise senior staff. Human life expectancy seems to be stretched by about 50%.
Yeah, but on the other hand, McCoy looks and acts pretty decrepit at the age of 137. And his appearance on the show is a brief enough cameo that we can't be sure he's actually still in active service, especially since he shows up in civilian clothing. If he were retired he might still be visiting a Starfleet ship, and a man like Picard would be happy to invite him aboard as a courtesy, if nothing else.

It's fair to assume Sulu's active career is going to run a while longer (under 20th century rules he'd probably be retiring now). But at the same time, he's not getting any younger, and chronological age in grade has got to be a source of "up or out" pressure just like time in grade. We've got bright young proteges (like Patricia Chen) being promoted to rear admiral while in their 40s; a rear admiral who's just celebrated his 70th birthday is going to be seen as an obstacle to promotion by a lot of captains and commodores beneath him.
 
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