But what makes the Constellation refit such an incredible waste and perfect sample of Sunk Cost Fallacy is the PP-cost.

As others have already pointed out, you misunderstand the resource cost of upgraded ships.

And since the 2d6 generate results on a bell curve, +1 stat to a low stat ship is actually a BIG improvement.

However, I do agree that the pp cost last snakepit was too high now we have the ConnieB. However, as the Constellation refit's pp cost comes down, upgrading these ships will be very rewarding.

I prefer refitting the old Centaur-As, because it conserves crew and resources for (short term) when we start building Constitution-Bs and (long term) our continued production of Centaur-As and Excelsiors. Also, war is likely more than a year away- but might be less then 3-4 years away. Any ships we can refit now, it'd make sense to refit now rather than waiting.

We can't refit Centaur As - the Centaur A IS the updated version of the Centaur.

fasquardon
 
Science 8, other stats 4 (D 5 would be nice, H 3 or P 3 is acceptable). Compromised reliability is quite acceptable as long as the warp core is reliable.

4 is actually quite high for an escort sized ship.

___________

@OneirosTheWriter: Can we do refits to increase the automation of our ships as we research better computer technology? I'm thinking particularly of the Constellation and the Excelsior here.

fasquardon
 
How valuable concentrating stats is exactly is hard to say, if you want some guideline I'd say (stat sum)^1.5 is a reasonable starting point. I arrived at 1.5 by comparing ships and their stat sums and trying different exponents and seeing what ended up giving reasonable results. I already knew the relative value of various ships in combat by doing a lot of simulations and made some adjustment to also take into account value for events. I specifically avoided looking at Centaur/Constellation vs Constellation refit, so I don't actually know what redoing your math with ^1.5 will say, but it should be more reasonable than your straight stat sum.
The Techs in Way of the Anchor definitely seem to encourage stacking stats on our bigger ships. Getting an effective +2 R for responding to events is a pretty massive boost, right?

....So, basically an Intrepid then. Good to know. We'll be doing the Kepler
No need to be so condescending. You asked a question, they answered.

Science 8, other stats 4 (D 5 would be nice, H 3 or P 3 is acceptable). Compromised reliability is quite acceptable as long as the warp core is reliable.
The issue is you're asking for a nerfed Intrepid class, but the only thing we're able to produce with the tech we have on an Escort Hull is a buffed Oberth (Kepler, whatever we're going to call it). The tech just isn't there for what you want to have, and won't be for decades.
 
The Techs in Way of the Anchor definitely seem to encourage stacking stats on our bigger ships. Getting an effective +2 R for responding to events is a pretty massive boost, right?


No need to be so condescending. You asked a question, they answered.


The issue is you're asking for a nerfed Intrepid class, but the only thing we're able to produce with the tech we have on an Escort Hull is a buffed Oberth (Kepler, whatever we're going to call it). The tech just isn't there for what you want to have, and won't be for decades.
...sorry, I got a little pissy that he wanted the impossible. I apologize
 
The Kepler is designed with the research from this turn, given that it won't be started this coming turn that means a minimum of one more year of research. Would we complete enough techs to improve the design in that time or in two years time?
 
Ok, so the problem is that you don't understand how stats work in this game.
As others have already pointed out, you misunderstand the resource cost of upgraded ships.
*sigh*
The point is, that the Constellation is effectively just a Centaur-A with somewhat different stat distribution. +1 C and D, -1 L and P.

If the only costs would be the raw resources and berth time, then I wouldn't have any issues with it. But as it is, any PP spent on the refit is in effect completely and utterly wasted if we could spend those PP just as easily in order to build more Centaurs, instead, as I pointed out. Or Constitution-Bs. Or basically anything else. It just isn't worth it when we could be using those PP to help improve Starfleet in various other, and more lasting, ways.
 
Also, while it is not hard statted, it looks like escort based designs are more crew efficient than cruiser based builds, and science ships eat techs like potato chips. Pushing bigger is likely to have major crew impacts.
 
The Kepler is designed with the research from this turn, given that it won't be started this coming turn that means a minimum of one more year of research. Would we complete enough techs to improve the design in that time or in two years time?
It's possible we might be able to squeeze in one or two stat impovements, but unfortunately nothing on the scale Nix is hoping for.
 
We can't refit Centaur As - the Centaur A IS the updated version of the Centaur.

fasquardon
Slip of the pen there; I was referring to the as-built Centaurs that actually need a refit.

Science 8, other stats 4 (D 5 would be nice, H 3 or P 3 is acceptable). Compromised reliability is quite acceptable as long as the warp core is reliable.

....So, basically an Intrepid then. Good to know. We'll be doing the Kepler
The issue is you're asking for a nerfed Intrepid class, but the only thing we're able to produce with the tech we have on an Escort Hull is a buffed Oberth (Kepler, whatever we're going to call it). The tech just isn't there for what you want to have, and won't be for decades.
Yeah. The Intrepid is a 700-kiloton ship, the same general mass as a Centaur or a Miranda. Look at the stat line for ships like that, even the best we can do with a carefully optimized design... we are a LONG way from anything with a stat baseline of 4, regardless of whether we can or cannot buff a single stat to eight.

With 2350-60 era technology that should be possible (as illustrated by the Intrepid and Defiant classes). Today... no.

The Kepler is designed with the research from this turn, given that it won't be started this coming turn that means a minimum of one more year of research. Would we complete enough techs to improve the design in that time or in two years time?
Very possibly, but not by much.
 
....So, basically an Intrepid then. Good to know. We'll be doing the Kepler

Instead of giving a knee jerk response I suggest you play with the design sheet and make some reasonable projections for what tech we will have in 10 years time which is roughly when we'd start the design project Nix is suggesting, also the intrepid is 9S and 5s across the board. Given the way status over scale works his idea for a garrison competent science vessel intermediary design between the intrepid and a kepler design is certainly viable. Well have scale 3.5-4 escorts by then and we can already design full 4 escorts.
 
Well, just in the Escort trees, completing the first levels of the Science and Engineering trees(especially the general Escort reliability tech) will help, but as you said these designs were what we can do now

Plus what aledeth said, we might be able to push hull or combat to 3 with a couple more stat improvements, but not to nerfed Intrepid levels
 
*sigh*
The point is, that the Constellation is effectively just a Centaur-A with somewhat different stat distribution. +1 C and D, -1 L and P.

If the only costs would be the raw resources and berth time, then I wouldn't have any issues with it. But as it is, any PP spent on the refit is in effect completely and utterly wasted if we could spend those PP just as easily in order to build more Centaurs, instead, as I pointed out. Or Constitution-Bs. Or basically anything else. It just isn't worth it when we could be using those PP to help improve Starfleet in various other, and more lasting, ways.
The events the improved Constellations may enable us to pass might well go a long way towards winning back some of that political will in the long run.

However, your point is well taken. The political cost for a Constellation refit is quite high, comparable to that of an entire new ship class. To me it seems unreasonable. Hopefully the cost will fall in the next few years, either due to Oneiros' action or due to omake bonuses.
 
....So, basically an Intrepid then. Good to know. We'll be doing the Kepler
4 is actually quite high for an escort sized ship.
The issue is you're asking for a nerfed Intrepid class, but the only thing we're able to produce with the tech we have on an Escort Hull is a buffed Oberth (Kepler, whatever we're going to call it). The tech just isn't there for what you want to have, and won't be for decades.
What are you talking about, we could design an escort with the lower end of the mentioned stat line right now. It would have reliability issues and I'd want to get general tech up a bit first to get reliability over 90%, but if it came push to shove I'd pick 83% reliability over trying to keep the Kepler around until 2370.
 
Instead of giving a knee jerk response I suggest you play with the design sheet and make some reasonable projections for what tech we will have in 10 years time which is roughly when we'd start the design project Nix is suggesting, also the intrepid is 9S and 5s across the board. Given the way status over scale works his idea for a garrison competent science vessel intermediary design between the intrepid and a kepler design is certainly viable. Well have scale 3.5-4 escorts by then and we can already design full 4 escorts.

Intrepids are C6 S10 H4 L4 P6 D5. Averaging the stats is less than useful as that makes for vastly different power and weight requirements
 
Given the relationship with the Klingons seems to be positive and stable, is it time to look into something like an officer exchange program? A posting on the USS Sappho might be educational for everyone involved, for example.
I don't know how I missed this, but this plan has my full support.

"So, Klag, what do you think so far?"

"I enjoy vollyball. It is a Warrior's sport."

CHEERING, WILD APPLAUSE, JOHN CENA HORNS

taggart rubs her temples, "they couldn't even send a klingon woman"
 
What are you talking about, we could design an escort with the lower end of the mentioned stat line right now. It would have reliability issues and I'd want to get general tech up a bit first to get reliability over 90%, but if it came push to shove I'd pick 83% reliability over trying to keep the Kepler around until 2370.
No, we don't want ANYTHING sub 95% reliability. I don't care a bout "funny events" because that happens only 40% of the time, while 60% of the time we are missing a ship for at least 3 months(if not more) are out some resources, and maybe even crew depending on sverity. And even with warp core 100% reliability, if we don't also have high hull reliability we can still accidentally the ship.

Basically, I'm getting really pissed at everyone ok with low reliability due to "Funny events! That's so Trek!". No, it is not. Funny events would be the minority, statistically speaking. You have your math ass backwards
 
No, we don't want ANYTHING sub 95% reliability. I don't care a bout "funny events" because that happens only 40% of the time, while 60% of the time we are missing a ship for at least 3 months(if not more) are out some resources, and maybe even crew depending on sverity. And even with warp core 100% reliability, if we don't also have high hull reliability we can still accidentally the ship.

Basically, I'm getting really pissed at everyone ok with low reliability due to "Funny events! That's so Trek!". No, it is not. Funny events would be the minority, statistically speaking. You have your math ass backwards
I'd be quite happy with 94% reliability on a science ship. Even if every single time meant 3 months out of action 1/4 * 0.06 = 0.015 so it would only miss about 1.5% of all events. Having higher stats will make much more of a difference than that.
 
I'd be quite happy with 94% reliability on a science ship. Even if every single time meant 3 months out of action 1/4 * 0.06 = 0.015 so it would only miss about 1.5% of all events. Having higher stats will make much more of a difference than that.

Actually we could see some political backlash from signing off on ships that are that much more prone to accidents.
 
No, we don't want ANYTHING sub 95% reliability. I don't care a bout "funny events" because that happens only 40% of the time, while 60% of the time we are missing a ship for at least 3 months(if not more) are out some resources, and maybe even crew depending on sverity.

Are you sure that's how it works? I thought the reliability failure created an Event, which just like any other Event can be passed by a successful check. So 60% of the time there would be potential for serious damage if the check was failed, but not a certainty.
 
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Umm, you do know reliability is rolled per ship right?
Yes, why would that possibly make any difference? 1.5% of events missed across all ships in exchange for higher stats and better success chance across all ships. For defense fleets group reliability makes some sense to talk about because one missing ship means the whole group has a problem, but for science ships?
 
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