By the way, when are we going to invest into a department to look into better weaponry for our vessels? I would expect that would improve our refitted vessels when we decide to spend time on it more than shields too advanced to be able to fit on the refits.
 
By the way, when are we going to invest into a department to look into better weaponry for our vessels? I would expect that would improve our refitted vessels when we decide to spend time on it more than shields too advanced to be able to fit on the refits.
Probably as soon as we can muster up the pp.
 
Honestly, the whole thing regarding the Constellation refit just seems like a big Sunk Cost Fallacy to me. "We have them, so we need to make them useful somehow."

Rather than trying to make a rather crappy design somewhat less crappy, we'd be better off making sure we can churn out better and/or more modern designs in larger quantities. Essentially, start the Renaissance project, bridge the time until then with Connie-Bs, and invest the PP in things like additional berths, bigger budget, or larger academy.

Investing those 45 PP into the Constellation just seems like a complete and utter waste to me.
The only fundamental problem here is the political will cost. It'd be a no-brainer if it weren't so expensive in those terms (because hey, stronger ships, for minimal cost and no extra crew required).

That said, sunk costs are a major factor in real strategic calculations, because in many cases the costs are simply too big to write off. We can't afford to just write off those eight ships at any time in the foreseeable future, because we won't be in a position to build their replacements for at least fifteen years. The Constitution-Bs don't replace the Constellations, they just enable us to keep the Constellations on rear area garrison duty.

Thing is, we want the Constellations to be on rear area garrison duty precisely so that other, more capable ships DON'T have to handle that duty. Those other ships (Centaur-As, Constitution-Bs, Excelsiors) will be the ones we actually want on the front.

Which means even the Constellations need to perform at a "second rate" standard as opposed to a "third rate."

Remember we need to set a new Starfleet Ambition in 2311. I think an intent to design, prototype, and produce at least 4 models of a new Science ship would make the Federation Council very happy. They'd probably authorize starting the project for 0 political will and even give us a nice bonus of research points to start things off.
That... is a very good idea.
 
Sure.

40 Eridani A Berth (3mt) is open now with the departure of the Endurance, but we can't order new construction until 2308Q1
Utopia Planitia Shipyard A Berth (3mt) - open in 2308Q2
Utopia Planitia Shipyard B Berth (3mt) - open in 2308Q2
Utopia Planitia Shipyard C Berth (1mt) - open in 2308Q2
Utopia Planitia Shipyard D Berth (1mt) - open in 2308Q2
Tellar Prime Ana Font Shipyard - open in 2309Q1
Constitution-B design available in 2309Q2
San Francisco Fleet Yards Berth 1 (1mt) - open in 2309.Q4
San Francisco Fleet Yards Berth 2 (1mt) - open in 2309.Q4
40 Eridani A Berth 1 (1mt) - open in 2309.Q4
40 Eridani A Berth 2 (1mt) - open in 2309.Q4

Those last four after after we start producing the design, but they open only 6 months later so I thought I'd include them.

So for 2308, is the plan another Excelsior & 2 more Centaur-As, or maybe refit the two old Centaurs instead of brand new ones?
 
Stat block of both ships with their refit bonuses/costs, to help comparisons.
In theory, their stats are fairly even; Constellation has more combat and defense, whereas the Centaur has better shields and presence.
The main difference is that the Constellation requires more crew (1 O, 2 E), and takes much longer to build, whereas the Centaur is faster to build and requires less crew, but costs much more in SR.

If the refit turned the Constellation into an Escort and reduces construction times and crew costs, similar to what the Constitution refit does, it might be worth considering, but as it is the Centaur is the better choice in pretty much every regard save for SR. Not really worth the PP to spend on it, in my opinion; if we need more Defense-points, we're better off either building more Centaurs, or using the PP for the refit to build one or two additional Starbases, instead.
Just as a heads up: the refit cost mentioned on the refit project description is just the cost to refit old ships. Upgraded ships don't cost any more BR to make, and SR costs go up by half the refit SR cost, rounding up. So the Constellation A costs 70/45 and the Centaur costs 80/70.

I made the same mistake that you did when I first saw the costs.
 
Let's pretend we didn't have any Constellations, and this was a new ship design on offer, with identical mechanical effects. Getting a new 4 3 2 2 2 4 ship for 55 br 30 sr (refit cost + scap value) with just 1 year of build time is a pretty good deal, even if it's limited to 8 ships total. A ship about as good as the Centaur-A, for about half the resource cost, and with a number limit about as high as the number of Centaur A's we were going to ever build? Why wouldn't we want to get that?
We don't have the crew or the resources to stuff all our 1m berths with new builds though unless I've drastically misread things which could be possible, the refit allows us to improve our current operating fleet assets in any berths which aren't being made use of and actually make them some what competitive with Cardassian designs.
We'd be paying ~45 PP, 160 BR, 80 SR, and 8 years of berth time for a total of +8 C, +8 S and +8 D.
If this was JUST about the resource costs and berth time then it might be worth considering, yeah. The above, versus, for example 2 Centaur-A which would cost 160 BR, 120 SR, 4 years berth time, and crew for +6 C, S,and D, but also some additional P, H, L and there just being some more hulls to shuffle around in general.
Not that huge of a difference, and might be worth some extended debate.

But what makes the Constellation refit such an incredible waste and perfect sample of Sunk Cost Fallacy is the PP-cost. For those 45 PP we could just as easily go and request a new 1mt berth and an increase of our budget, and then simply use those to keep churning out Centaur-As on a constant basis.
Getting a 1mt berth (10 pp) and budget increase (30-35 pp) means that we can, for the same amount of PP and berth time, get 4 Centaur-As (total; 12 C, 12 S, 10 H, 12 L, 12 P, 12 D) and 160 BR. On top of the 160 BR and 80 SR saved from not refitting the Constellation.

There simply is no scenario where the Constellation refit actually gets us ahead when compared to the option of simply shoving them into a quiet corner of our territory and then ignoring them until we can replace them with something better.

The only fundamental problem here is the political will cost. It'd be a no-brainer if it weren't so expensive in those terms (because hey, stronger ships, for minimal cost and no extra crew required).

That said, sunk costs are a major factor in real strategic calculations, because in many cases the costs are simply too big to write off. We can't afford to just write off those eight ships at any time in the foreseeable future, because we won't be in a position to build their replacements for at least fifteen years. The Constitution-Bs don't replace the Constellations, they just enable us to keep the Constellations on rear area garrison duty.

Thing is, we want the Constellations to be on rear area garrison duty precisely so that other, more capable ships DON'T have to handle that duty. Those other ships (Centaur-As, Constitution-Bs, Excelsiors) will be the ones we actually want on the front.

Which means even the Constellations need to perform at a "second rate" standard as opposed to a "third rate."
The thing is that the Constellations are already good enough for rear area garrison duty, and keeping them in that role makes their combat upgrade almost completely irrelevant, meaning we'd effectively pay 45 PP plus refit cost and time for +8 S and +8 D. Which makes the refit an even worse choice by a rather large margin.
 
Remember we need to set a new Starfleet Ambition in 2311. I think an intent to design, prototype, and produce at least 4 models of a new Science ship would make the Federation Council very happy. They'd probably authorize starting the project for 0 political will and even give us a nice bonus of research points to start things off.
I don't think that's actually advisable, it's tricky to achieve. 3 years prototype, 2 years construction, and a decent escort weight science ship will require a high stat-over-scale fudge factor, 5 if you want to get the best out of it (which I would if it was supposed to bridge the gap between Oberth and Intrepid and stay in service for about 50 years). So that means the team needs to be at least skill 5 and there is no room for any delays of any sort at all.
 
Remember we need to set a new Starfleet Ambition in 2311. I think an intent to design, prototype, and produce at least 4 models of a new Science ship would make the Federation Council very happy. They'd probably authorize starting the project for 0 political will and even give us a nice bonus of research points to start things off.

I don't think that's actually advisable, it's tricky to achieve. 3 years prototype, 2 years construction, and a decent escort weight science ship will require a high stat-over-scale fudge factor, 5 if you want to get the best out of it (which I would if it was supposed to bridge the gap between Oberth and Intrepid and stay in service for about 50 years). So that means the team needs to be at least skill 5 and there is no room for any delays of any sort at all.

SDB has some nice designs (Kepler-class Medium Science Escort) ready, though they could use a bit more tech to allow for refits. The Kepler is designed for a 20-30 year lifespan as a top tier science ship (7 Science!), and then a couple more decades as a garrison ship.

I think 2 classes will be necessary to bridge the gap – Kepler and another (Cassini? Halley? Galileo? Hubble?) with 8/9 science and a much better hull/shield stat.

STOC 2 is sufficient for now, but when we start creating more capable escorts, it will be a bigger issue. Are there any mitigation techs?
 
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I don't think that's actually advisable, it's tricky to achieve. 3 years prototype, 2 years construction, and a decent escort weight science ship will require a high stat-over-scale fudge factor, 5 if you want to get the best out of it (which I would if it was supposed to bridge the gap between Oberth and Intrepid and stay in service for about 50 years). So that means the team needs to be at least skill 5 and there is no room for any delays of any sort at all.

This is in the context of @AlphaDelta saying he had a design that:

There's 900 kt designs floating around now in the SDB that are decent escorts/garrison ships and great science ships.

My take on the Kepler:
C2 S7 H2 L3 P2 D3
90BR 55SR
99.3ish reliability
8 Techs (≤L2)
 
We'd be paying ~45 PP, 160 BR, 80 SR, and 8 years of berth time for a total of +8 C, +8 S and +8 D.
If this was JUST about the resource costs and berth time then it might be worth considering, yeah. The above, versus, for example 2 Centaur-A which would cost 160 BR, 120 SR, 4 years berth time, and crew for +6 C, S,and D, but also some additional P, H, L and there just being some more hulls to shuffle around in general.
Not that huge of a difference, and might be worth some extended debate.

But what makes the Constellation refit such an incredible waste and perfect sample of Sunk Cost Fallacy is the PP-cost. For those 45 PP we could just as easily go and request a new 1mt berth and an increase of our budget, and then simply use those to keep churning out Centaur-As on a constant basis.
Getting a 1mt berth (10 pp) and budget increase (30-35 pp) means that we can, for the same amount of PP and berth time, get 4 Centaur-As (total; 12 C, 12 S, 10 H, 12 L, 12 P, 12 D) and 160 BR. On top of the 160 BR and 80 SR saved from not refitting the Constellation.

There simply is no scenario where the Constellation refit actually gets us ahead when compared to the option of simply shoving them into a quiet corner of our territory and then ignoring them until we can replace them with something better.


The thing is that the Constellations are already good enough for rear area garrison duty, and keeping them in that role makes their combat upgrade almost completely irrelevant, meaning we'd effectively pay 45 PP plus refit cost and time for +8 S and +8 D. Which makes the refit an even worse choice by a rather large margin.
Um, why exactly do we need to have to use PP if we already have the resources and technologies required to refit the ships? Sorry if this is a bit naive but the only thing I can think of that would require their input would be for passing safety regulations. Any other reason that can be thought of why we can't have them refitted ourselves?
 
Um, why exactly do we need to have to use PP if we already have the resources and technologies required to refit the ships? Sorry if this is a bit naive but the only thing I can think of that would require their input would be for passing safety regulations. Any other reason that can be thought of why we can't have them refitted ourselves?
It's a fairly major program.
 
Which might be an acceptable in between if we want to design a better science ship a decade alter, but not anywhere close to good enough as a long term solution.

I've got no idea what you consider "acceptable", but if it's a really awesome ship we can probably get away with producing just the prototype. Ideally the Ambition should be something that the Council looks at and goes, "Yeah, that would reasonably take about ten years."
 
Which might be an acceptable in between if we want to design a better science ship a decade alter, but not anywhere close to good enough as a long term solution.
7 science (+1 after a refit, which I left space for), is as good as an Ambassador. Sure, the durability will be relatively bad in 20 years, but the Oberth has served for 50 with far worse.

The Kepler is better than some combat escorts.

Differences between the Kepler and the Centaur A
-1 Combat
+4 Science
+0 Hull
+0 Shields
-1 Presence
+0 Defense

Costs:
+10 BR
-15 SR

TLDR: It costs less SR, actually is an OK escort, and a great garrison ship.

It's also better than the Constellation-0 period.
 
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I think the political will cost of the Constellation refit is definitely excessive, given that we're almost certainly not going to build more Constellation-As under any circumstances given that even after refits they remain fragile (for fleet battle purposes) and cost a lot of crew (limiting their value as garrison ships).

A comparably high cost for the Centaur-A made sense because that was a very new ship class. There would reasonably be Council members asking "well, if it wasn't good enough in 2300, why would refitting it after only a few years make it good enough now?"

But the Constellations are a significantly older design. Arguing that they need a refit SHOULD be rather easier.

So for 2308, is the plan another Excelsior & 2 more Centaur-As, or maybe refit the two old Centaurs instead of brand new ones?
I prefer refitting the old Centaur-As, because it conserves crew and resources for (short term) when we start building Constitution-Bs and (long term) our continued production of Centaur-As and Excelsiors. Also, war is likely more than a year away- but might be less then 3-4 years away. Any ships we can refit now, it'd make sense to refit now rather than waiting.
 
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So, as a random question, do the Cardassians know that cloaking exists? Because they don't use it, and I'm sure they would if they knew how, we don't use it, and the two main powers that do use it aren't in any active conflict with the Cardassians.

Which makes me wonder if they're writing off any rumors of cloaking devices as propaganda...
 
I prefer refitting the old Centaur-As, because it conserves crew and resources for (short term) when we start building Constitution-Bs and (long term) our continued production of Centaur-As and Excelsiors. Also, war is likely more than a year away- but might be less then 3-4 years away. Any ships we can refit now, it'd make sense to refit now rather than waiting.

All right, I think I've been talked into it. How's this for a build schedule to set at the Q1 meeting?

2308Q1 - Lay down new Excelsior in 40 Eridani Berth A (3mt)
2308Q2 - Lay down new Oberth at Utopia Planetia 1mt berth
2308Q2 - Lay down new Centaur-A at Utopia Planetia 1mt berth
2308Q2 - Begin refit of Centaur [Yukikaze] at Utopia Planetia 3mt berth

(Move Constellation from Tellar Prime to RBZ to make up defense difference.)
 
We'd be paying ~45 PP, 160 BR, 80 SR, and 8 years of berth time for a total of +8 C, +8 S and +8 D.
If this was JUST about the resource costs and berth time then it might be worth considering, yeah. The above, versus, for example 2 Centaur-A which would cost 160 BR, 120 SR, 4 years berth time, and crew for +6 C, S,and D, but also some additional P, H, L and there just being some more hulls to shuffle around in general.
Ok, so the problem is that you don't understand how stats work in this game.

You can't just add up stats of different numbers of ships and compare the sum to say something useful. Comparing stats directly only makes sense if you compare one ship to one other ship. A single ship with high stats is a lot more valuable than several ships with the same stat points distributed; in combat the single ship can take more hits before the combat score starts to drop, stat tests are generally 2d6 so shifting the roll needed from say 10 to 7 is a lot more valuable than rolling twice, events require both a roll to make it to the event and a roll (or multiple rolls) to succeed so it only helps if the same ship can make or contribute to both, the number of ships that can contribute to an event is usually capped, and advantages of covering more space by spreading out currently aren't modeled by the event system (if there are 3 locations to cover in a sector and 3 ships that doesn't mean there is a ship at each location but that all three ships get a roll to see if they are close enough to the location to make it in time, a single ship would get a roll with the same DC).

How valuable concentrating stats is exactly is hard to say, if you want some guideline I'd say (stat sum)^1.5 is a reasonable starting point. I arrived at 1.5 by comparing ships and their stat sums and trying different exponents and seeing what ended up giving reasonable results. I already knew the relative value of various ships in combat by doing a lot of simulations and made some adjustment to also take into account value for events. I specifically avoided looking at Centaur/Constellation vs Constellation refit, so I don't actually know what redoing your math with ^1.5 will say, but it should be more reasonable than your straight stat sum.
 
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I'm sure the Cardassians know of various ways to make a ship harder to detect by minimizing its sensor signature. But outright cloaking devices that are basically magic invisibility shields... yeah, I doubt it.

It seems like the Romulans invented those, and may have been working on them for centuries before they developed them. Klingons got them from Romulans as I recall.
 
All right, I think I've been talked into it. How's this for a build schedule to set at the Q1 meeting?

2308Q1 - Lay down new Excelsior in 40 Eridani Berth A (3mt)
2308Q2 - Lay down new Oberth at Utopia Planetia 1mt berth
2308Q2 - Lay down new Centaur-A at Utopia Planetia 1mt berth
2308Q2 - Begin refit of Centaur [Yukikaze] at Utopia Planetia 3mt berth

(Move Constellation from Tellar Prime to RBZ to make up defense difference.)
You'll have my vote... assuming there's a good reason to work on Yukikaze in a three-megaton berth, and I assume there is.
 
7 science (+1 after a refit, which I left space for), is as good as an Ambassador. Sure, the durability will be relatively bad in 20 years, but the Oberth has served for 50 with far worse.

The Kepler is better than some combat escorts.

Differences between the Kepler and the Centaur A
-1 Combat
+4 Science
+0 Hull
+0 Shields
-1 Presence
+0 Defense

Costs:
+10 BR
-15 SR

TLDR: It costs less SR, actually is an OK escort, and a great garrison ship.

It's also better than the Constellation-0 period.
Being an improvement over current alternatives is a bare minimum to enter consideration at all. I wouldn't mind using this ship for a decade, but it's definitely not something I'd still want to build more of in 2330, even assuming a refit adding +1 to 2-3 stats. I also doubt science would be one of those 2-3 stats.
 
Being an improvement over current alternatives is a bare minimum to enter consideration at all. I wouldn't mind using this ship for a decade, but it's definitely not something I'd still want to build more of in 2330, even assuming a refit adding +1 to 2-3 stats. I also doubt science would be one of those 2-3 stats.
So what statline would YOU like for an intermediate between an Oberth and an Intrepid
 
You'll have my vote... assuming there's a good reason to work on Yukikaze in a three-megaton berth, and I assume there is.

The reason would be that there won't be any 1mt berths available, and it'll only fill it a year.

Really, we're going to be a bit top-heavy on Excelsior berths for while. When UP is operational we'll have seven of them, and we have neither the resources nor the crews to be building seven Excelsiors at once. If we keep up with a more reasonable 1 Excelsior per year, that'll be four of the 2.5/3mt berths constantly filled and three we can do with... whatever. Build prototypes, use for 1mt ships, keep open for repairs/refits (all good options). So get used to seeing 1mt ships in 2.5mt or 3 mt berths as necessary.
 
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