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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Keeper Of Storms said:
How can it be combined arms if you're dropping an entire ship class??? Ton for Ton, the Light Cruisers are more cost effective than the Escorts, at least until we pick up the Defiant. That said, Escorts allow for greater dispersion of our Armament. Hence... Combined Arms. While the Feds like their Heavy Cruisers, we're also the Tech Guys, which means that Combined Arms certainly works in our favour.
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You're just quibbling about the name. The point was to push fleet composition to various extremes and see what that looks like. Why don't you write one for what you consider a true Combined Arms and we can compare?

That was kind of my idea, to provide a template and three examples and have people start creating their own 2312 plans.

pheonix89 said:
Ok, looking at the stats, what is up the Constellation and Centaur? The Centaur is bigger, heavier, newer, and more expensive. It's also flatly worse statwise.
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The Centaur requires less crew and you can build them quicker. If we were trying to build up forces as quickly as possible for an anticipated war and money was no object, that's where you'd go.
 
Briefvoice said:
You're just quibbling about the name. The point was to push fleet composition to various extremes and see what that looks like. Why don't you write one for what you consider a true Combined Arms and we can compare?

That was kind of my idea, to provide a template and three examples and have people start creating their own 2312 plans.
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Right, but that wasn't the extreme that matched the Doctrine. That's what I took issue with. I'll muck around with ideas for a Combined Arms-based Fleet.
 
Keeper Of Storms said:
Right, but that wasn't the extreme that matched the Doctrine. That's what I took issue with. I'll muck around with ideas for a Combined Arms-based Fleet.
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For true Combined Arms if you view Combat as the appropriate balance rather than number of ships, you'd probably want to go to somewhere around:

5 heavy cruisers (30C/30D), 9 Constellations (27C/27D), and 10 Escorts (30C/20D).

But I wanted to push it to extremes.
 
@OneirosTheWriter , any chance can we get a ballpark estimate of retirement for the Old Guard still around? Don't need specific dates, but a "Likely to remain for >Decade" or "Five years or less" would be of great assistance. They don't even necessarily need to be correct, just having a ballpark to plan with. A how old/service time would be pretty useful too.
 
Keeper Of Storms said:
@OneirosTheWriter , any chance can we get a ballpark estimate of retirement for the Old Guard still around? Don't need specific dates, but a "Likely to remain for >Decade" or "Five years or less" would be of great assistance. They don't even necessarily need to be correct, just having a ballpark to plan with. A how old/service time would be pretty useful too.
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Don't we already have that on the personnel thread mark?
 
Starfleet Key Staff

Commander, Starfleet, Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi [Human selected: Gain 10% discount on political cost of expansions to Industrial items, such as shipyards]
Chief of Starfleet Operations Vice Admiral Donald Hamsfeld [Old Guard]
-6 Commodores for each Sector Command (Key Area)
Starfleet Explorer Corps Rear Admiral Patricia Chen (Female Human, 44, re-roll failed Hull checks, increasing chances of your explorers escaping destruction)
Starfleet Shipyard Operations Vice Admiral Valentina Sousa (+5pp / turn)
Starfleet Ship Design Bureau Rear Admiral T'Laur [Old Guard] (Retiring 2302 Q3)
Starfleet Academy Commandant Rear Admiral Yamada Keiko [Old Guard]
Starfleet Personnel, Rear Admiral Seruk [Old Guard]
Starfleet Intelligence Rear Admiral Shey ch'Tharvasse [Old Guard]
Starfleet Tactical Vice Admiral Lachlan Ablett [Old Guard]

[Old Guard] = Your predecessor's appointment, who provides no bonus or options.
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We do for people that we know the exact date of their retirement (Admiral T'Laur), but we have no indication at all for everyone else. Given that the option to push them out is going to be available coming up, having some sort of indication as to how long they're probably planning on sticking around would be massively useful.
 
Stop looking at Starfleet like it's an army of conquest.

It's not, and will never be.

Starfleet exists to expand space, the final frontier, and to defend the Federation. It is, intrinsically, a multipurpose, peacetime-oriented navy that is grudgingly militarized because the final frontier is in equal parts beautiful and terrifying. Nothing can change that.

Trying to force a doctrine on Starfleet that *doesn't* play to these necessities is a fool's errand, leaving us with an inferior space arm. Playing to these strengths - defence, pacifism and big guns that hopefully never get used - is the way to go.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Stop looking at Starfleet like it's an army of conquest.

It's not, and will never be.

Starfleet exists to expand space, the final frontier, and to defend the Federation. It is, intrinsically, a multipurpose, peacetime-oriented navy that is grudgingly militarized because the final frontier is in equal parts beautiful and terrifying. Nothing can change that.

Trying to force a doctrine on Starfleet that *doesn't* play to these necessities is a fool's errand, leaving us with an inferior space arm. Playing to these strengths - defence, pacifism and big guns that hopefully never get used - is the way to go.
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I mean if we really wanted to make a space conquest army then someone should distract our QM so I can steal his Mechanics and run "Romulus just straight takes over everything quest"

> : P

Anyway, we'd probably end up with Fleet in being and Decisive battle doctrine. Keep our ships together and then hammer the enemy fleet apart before laying down a mutually acceptable peace treaty The objective would be destroy the enemy fleet and then never touch civilian infrastructure. Any scenario where we're landing Federation occupation armies on someone's world is a loss.
 
To add to that, we have the polity that has the most stuff that it has to defend as giving ground is hard for us based on our culture but we are not agressive either. So big ships, reducing the loss of live for us, and of course being able to act fast inside of our teritory. Heck where static defences in any way usefull and not just there to get blown up I would argue for more starbases.
 
Static defenses are very useful though. They free up ships to respond to trouble without weakening a system's protection.
 
Keeper Of Storms said:
We do for people that we know the exact date of their retirement (Admiral T'Laur), but we have no indication at all for everyone else. Given that the option to push them out is going to be available coming up, having some sort of indication as to how long they're probably planning on sticking around would be massively useful.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that NONE of the old guard who don't already have a retirement already scheduled, intend to do so within the foreseeable future.


Also, I'd like to point out a nifty little detail about the Base Strike Doctrine:
OneirosTheWriter said:
Base Strike Doctrine
Focus your fleet power on enemy starbases and systems. Receive a combat bonus when attacking starbases, attempting to secure orbit, or defending against the same.
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Hey, see those last four words? It basically means that, while Starfleet will have grasped the techniques to destroy or seize hostile space assets and territory, we'll ALSO get good at preventing it, because we could then go "...but THISwould really screw that attack up! Make sure everybody can do that."
 
On the other hand, Federation starships do lots of stuff that isn't either guard duty or attacking someone.

It seems like they're always been sent somewhere to transport vital supplies or check out this weird thing or move people around or even apply the raw power of a dilithium antimatter reaction to some needed purpose on a colony world that could otherwise never muster the energy. Basically whenever civilian organization vessels would be too slow or otherwise not powerful enough.

So if someone is pushing for lots of small starships and an away-from-base doctrine, it doesn't have to be because the idea is to be militarily aggressive. You could use the same doctrine to be aggressive about being all over the Federation, providing aid everywhere and being available for even small requests.
 
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Derek58 said:
Static defenses are very useful though. They free up ships to respond to trouble without weakening a system's protection.
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I'm of the belief that static defences should be little more that tripwires and tarpits until your actual fleet arrives. (Or just an Enterprise)
 
Given how big starbases are, an actual defense specced starbase should have a combat capability measured in peer battleships killed per salvo. I mean, you're talking about a platform several times the size of a galaxy-class minimum, with all sorts of savings from being built directly over a logistics center and not needing things like drive systems.

Something on the size of Earth Space Dock , but built for war, could probably wipe out dozens of BBs in one barrage - we're talking about something with like 150x the volume of a galaxy, which is an awful lot of room for power generation for those phasers.
AKuz said:
I'm of the belief that static defences should be little more that tripwires and tarpits until your actual fleet arrives. (Or just an Enterprise)
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You have to have shipyards and starbases, and while you're building the giant-ass space stations you might has well give it some guns. And something that big, even with the volume to boom ratio of an Oberth, should one-punch a BB.
 
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@OneirosTheWriter Question:While it would be nutty to do so, could we research ALL the doctrines and be able to decide which one we want active, or does researching one make others impossible to even start?
 
How about this one?

Position defense fleets in nexus points connecting to multiple vulnerable Federation worlds. If any of them are in danger, then the fleet can jump in and help out.

Meanwhile, said worlds would have fortifications, garrisons, static defenses, and a few ships on hand so that they're not defenseless, and they can at least hold off the enemy until the fleet arrives.
 
I get how a Starbase can protect a planet, but I-

(sighs deeply) I know what I'm about to say is asking Star Trek to make sense about space and that's crazy talk, but I'll say it anyway.

I get how a Starbase can protect a planet, but I don't see how one would ever be useful on a "border zone" light years long or anywhere that's not protecting a planet. You could just fly around it. I suppose if the Starbase itself was also a repair dock, it would be useful as a hard point where damaged ships could retreat to during after battles for repair and resupply. Maybe that's the idea?
 
Briefvoice said:
I get how a Starbase can protect a planet, but I-

(sighs deeply) I know what I'm about to say is asking Star Trek to make sense about space and that's crazy talk, but I'll say it anyway.

I get how a Starbase can protect a planet, but I don't see how one would ever be useful on a "border zone" light years long or anywhere that's not protecting a planet. You could just fly around it. I suppose if the Starbase itself was also a repair dock, it would be useful as a hard point where damaged ships could retreat to during after battles for repair and resupply. Maybe that's the idea?
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That's what they are though. They're also, if I remember right, in possession of rather potent Sensor Arrays. If a Starbase is in the region, allied vessels have a guaranteed 'port' that they can chill out in while dealing with anything up to major damage. While being granted rather thorough intelligence of the Sector they're dealing with. Not sure if that's how they're working out in this, but given things that Oneiros has said so far I think so.
 
Briefvoice said:
I get how a Starbase can protect a planet, but I-

(sighs deeply) I know what I'm about to say is asking Star Trek to make sense about space and that's crazy talk, but I'll say it anyway.

I get how a Starbase can protect a planet, but I don't see how one would ever be useful on a "border zone" light years long or anywhere that's not protecting a planet. You could just fly around it. I suppose if the Starbase itself was also a repair dock, it would be useful as a hard point where damaged ships could retreat to during after battles for repair and resupply. Maybe that's the idea?
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Yeah, it's going to be at greatly reduced effectiveness for border zones or full-system defense.

Well, maybe. Depends on if it can be setup to launch photon torpedoes at warp speeds in a manner similar to starships at warp. Homing FTL missiles do a lot for a platforms effective range.
 
pheonix89 said:
Yeah, it's going to be at greatly reduced effectiveness for border zones or full-system defense.

Well, maybe. Depends on if it can be setup to launch photon torpedoes at warp speeds in a manner similar to starships at warp. Homing FTL missiles do a lot for a platforms effective range.
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It still represent a strong point and communication relay. Bypassing it lets any ships operating there raid your supply lines and it once again also is providing constant updates on where your fleet is heading to the defenders. Information that you do not possess. It also can potentially detect incoming fleets approaching the border.
 
Void Stalker said:
It still represent a strong point and communication relay. Bypassing it lets any ships operating there raid your supply lines and it once again also is providing constant updates on where your fleet is heading to the defenders. Information that you do not possess. It also can potentially detect incoming fleets approaching the border.
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Oh, agreed. It's just that you can go around a starbase covering a border region, while the only options to deal with a military base guarding a planet are to fight it or hit somewhere else.
 
pheonix89 said:
Given how big starbases are, an actual defense specced starbase should have a combat capability measured in peer battleships killed per salvo. I mean, you're talking about a platform several times the size of a galaxy-class minimum, with all sorts of savings from being built directly over a logistics center and not needing things like drive systems.

Something on the size of Earth Space Dock , but built for war, could probably wipe out dozens of BBs in one barrage - we're talking about something with like 150x the volume of a galaxy, which is an awful lot of room for power generation for those phasers.

You have to have shipyards and starbases, and while you're building the giant-ass space stations you might has well give it some guns. And something that big, even with the volume to boom ratio of an Oberth, should one-punch a BB.
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Starbase can't move
 
The problem is also, well how good you can intercept stuff based on the starbarse which gets to *handwave* travel time and warp stuff.

Sadly we can not go maximum Romulan and cloak a starbase...
Wait does the treatry only forbids the use for..ships?
 
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