I explained before that the HBZ being a bad idea does not mean trap option any more than the push on the Bajorans ending up being a bad idea was a trap option. If long established mechanics continuing to be available in cases where they happen to be a bad idea is a "trap option" we already know that this QM uses trap options, if not there is no basis for calling it one.
You're arguing that declaring a border zone makes the opponent we're declaring one against significantly more able to hurt us. That's exactly the opposite of the intent of the option. We call it a trap when an ability called "Sword Better" makes you worse at swording. We call it a trap when the ability for "Magic Resistance" makes you more susceptible to hostile magic. And we call it a trap when "Declare a border zone" makes the opponent better at bypassing our defenses and hurting us. And it's not just "options continue to be available"; you're arguing that the mechanics of a border zone are fundamentally and necessarily harmful to us.
 
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So Politics right now are really, really interesting. There are 51 Council seats, and it takes 26 seats for a majority.

Development - 14
Expansionist - 11
Pacifist - 11
Hawks - 9
Mercantile - 6

What makes this so interesting is that not only do you need three parties to form a winning voting block, but any three parties can form that winning voting block. Even the two smallest parties, Mercantile and Hawks, can form a 26 vote coalition if they pick off any of the other three parties. No wonder costs went up all around. To get anything done, Starfleet has to corral three different parties on board.
I wonder what kind of issue would result in a Pacifist + Hawk + Mercantile coalition with Dev + Exp against...

More likely, if previous depictions of political wrangling still hold true, it's still going to be mostly Pacifist + Expansionist vs Development + Hawk with Mercantile being the swing vote. Also, since the price for getting 2 ratifications hasn't gone down (or up), presumably it's still P+X for vs D+H against there.

Assuming Caldonia is ratified, how many votes would we expect to see from them? Just 1? 2? Seyek, presumably, would come with more, at least 1 for Fiiral, then... 2-3 for Seyek?
 
If you think that the math interacts with border zones in a way that makes declaring them strictly a negative outcome, take it up with @OneirosTheWriter as a critical failure in his game mechanics. Your analysis, if correct, makes the entire concept of a border zone a trap, and trap options are a great way to cripple a game.
I never claimed anything remotely like that. I claimed that THIS border zone is a bad idea under the CURRENT circumstances if what you care about most is avoiding a repeat of the Sydraxians. Most border zones are net positive in almost all circumstances, and this border zone will be a net positive once all affiliates behind it have joined up, possibly earlier if we can spare enough garrison forces to counteract the risk posed by extra events. It would also be a net positive if you care more about pp and rp than Horizon diplomacy.
 
You're arguing that declaring a border zone makes the opponent we're declaring one against significantly more able to hurt us. That's exactly the opposite of the intent of the option. We call it a trap when an ability called "Sword Better" makes you worse at swording. We call it a trap when the ability for "Magic Resistance" makes you more susceptible to hostile magic. And we call it a trap when "Declare a border zone" makes the opponent better at bypassing our defenses and hurting us. And it's not just "options continue to be available"; you're arguing that the mechanics of a border zone are fundamentally harmful to us.

It's really not that complicated. Creating the border zone will lead to more events being rolled. Now if we can stuff the garrison with great response ships that's a good thing, since successful events are the lifeblood of Starfleet. However, if we're hard-pressed for ships, like for instance we're about to have a major engagement on the other side of the Federation that will likely end with numerous ships in the docks or destroyed, then having more events is risky because there are more opportunities to fail. It's not a trap option in that border zones are always bad, it's just that the current circumstances create risk that people like Nix and I find unacceptable.
 
I never claimed anything remotely like that. I claimed that THIS border zone is a bad idea under the CURRENT circumstances if what you care about most is avoiding a repeat of the Sydraxians. Most border zones are net positive in almost all circumstances, and this border zone will be a net positive once all affiliates behind it have joined up, possibly earlier if we can spare enough garrison forces to counteract the risk posed by extra events. It would also be a net positive if you care more about pp and rp than Horizon diplomacy.
I must be completely misunderstanding something, then. Just a couple posts ago you were arguing that we're already only failing on snake-eyes, which means we're off the RNG and stacking up modifiers is ineffectual. If you also reject the idea a border zone will lessen the severity of failure, then adding more events can only hurt.
 
I explained before that the HBZ being a bad idea does not mean trap option any more than the push on the Bajorans ending up being a bad idea was a trap option. If long established mechanics continuing to be available in cases where they happen to be a bad idea is a "trap option" we already know that this QM uses trap options, if not there is no basis for calling it one.

My argument didn't rely on any knowledge of the event tables beyond extra sectors causing extra event rolls (long known and reasonably explicitly stated by Oneiros), border zones having more events rolled for them than home sectors (very explicitly stated by Oneiros and also reinforced by our doctrine), Horizon events being on the table for the HBZ (seems very obvious, does anyone actually dispute this?) and Horizon events continuing to be on the tables for sectors behind the HBZ ("As a whole, they can still arrive in Federation space as the Feds are not in a state of conflict"). Knowledge of the mechanics is likewise based on QM statements and direct observations, not supposition.

It seems pretty unreasonable to claim that I have no basis for my arguments just after I provided a basis for the one you contested?
Your argument relies on another assumption-cluster you didn't spell out here.

Your argument mostly reduces to "more events equals more chances to fail, therefore more events is bad, therefore more sectors is bad." The problem is that you're not making any allowance at all for the narrative effects of a failure, which is a huge deal in the context of Presence events. A blown Presence check can mean -10pp, which is negligible at our current level. Or it can mean :"local planet on the fringe of our affiliate's space and becomes a Horizon protectorate that they'll be turning into a fleet base next year." That's not negligible.

More chances to fail does not automatically equate to worse outcomes, if the narrative consequences of the failures are mitigated. I'd rather have a 25% chance of losing one hundred dollars than a 10% chance of losing five hundred dollars.

Have we already checked if this new councilor is a romulan seamstress in her background??
She's not my candidate concept so I have no idea.

We kind of killed off most of the systemic rot within their society. They came out ahead despite our trashing their fleet.
Halkh:

"I wouldn't put it that simply, young author. You humiliated many of the most respected authorities within our empire, creating mass instability. You killed many of our greatest scientists and engineers. You're trying to coerce us into abandoning the possibility of ever creating more. And you're trying to force us to work with computing machines our species lacks all expertise with, placing us at a grave disadvantage compared to other species that have been using hunks of metal and plastic to think for them for centuries. I suppose there may come a day when we thank you for it, but this is not that day."

Briefvoice said:
Rogers you smug bastard.... Oh this is going to be fun. So much fun. You like President Ladycat, I guarantee 'ole Solomon is going to finagle his way onto whatever committee oversees Starfleet. He may not be able to give orders, but he'll certainly "ask questions". And the funniest part is, I'm sure he'll consider himself to be "Starfleet's ally".
We All Know Who:

"...Oh, my."
 
I must be completely misunderstanding something, then. Just a couple posts ago you were arguing that we're already only failing on snake-eyes, which means we're off the RNG and stacking up modifiers is ineffectual. If you also reject the idea a border zone will lessen the severity of failure, then adding more events can only hurt.
It can only hurt if your only priority is avoiding missing or failing any events, and it will tend to hurt if avoiding those is your highest priority. In most circumstances avoiding missing or failing any events is not the highest priority, net rewards are.
 
Halkh:

"I wouldn't put it that simply, young author. You humiliated many of the most respected authorities within our empire, creating mass instability. You killed many of our greatest scientists and engineers. You're trying to coerce us into abandoning the possibility of ever creating more. And you're trying to force us to work with computing machines our species lacks all expertise with, placing us at a grave disadvantage compared to other species that have been using hunks of metal and plastic to think for them for centuries. I suppose there may come a day when we thank you for it, but this is not that day."

Honeybunches, your pathetic excuse for an empire humiliated itself when it decided it would rather go to war with the entire quadrant than stop doing dangerous experiments in other peoples' space.
 
I never claimed anything remotely like that. I claimed that THIS border zone is a bad idea under the CURRENT circumstances if what you care about most is avoiding a repeat of the Sydraxians. Most border zones are net positive in almost all circumstances, and this border zone will be a net positive once all affiliates behind it have joined up, possibly earlier if we can spare enough garrison forces to counteract the risk posed by extra events. It would also be a net positive if you care more about pp and rp than Horizon diplomacy.
Here's the thing, Nix.

The border zone is a Starfleet Administrative decision. It CANNOT effect the actual rate of Horizon actions for narrative reasons.

Therefore, to argue that the BZ will degrade defense against Horizon actions is to argue that Oneiros is giving us an option that will do the opposite of what it is advertised ... because apparently you're convinced he won't rejigger the tables and narrative for raisins? Certainly not for any kind of in universe reason.

There is no possible in universe justification for what you're saying. Which means your scenario is NOT a logical outcome outcome of our actions, it's the QM being a dick and making our decision do the opposite of what it's obviously meant to do.

You are saying that Oneiros is laying a trap, and your insistence that he's not is rubbish.
 
It can only hurt if your only priority is avoiding missing or failing any events, and it will tend to hurt if avoiding those is your highest priority. In most circumstances avoiding missing or failing any events is not the highest priority, net rewards are.
Okay, that makes sense.

This still makes border zones crazy. It sounds like we should be declaring "border" zones in our interior and avoiding them at all costs on frontiers that we're contesting with actual enemies. Which, given that their intended purpose is to help defend us from actual enemies that we're contesting frontiers with...
 
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It can only hurt if your only priority is avoiding missing or failing any events, and it will tend to hurt if avoiding those is your highest priority. In most circumstances avoiding missing or failing any events is not the highest priority, net rewards are.
True, but I would argue that "most circumstances" does not cover responding to enemy action and especially not enemy action where we don't fully understand the enemy yet, where our highest priority is to avoid failures and losses until we do understand them. When heading off enemy action, our rewards are usually given in terms like "prevented the Cardassians from blowing up that shipyard" or "limited the ability of Horizon to influence the Rigellians".
 
Here's the thing, Nix.

The border zone is a Starfleet Administrative decision. It CANNOT effect the actual rate of Horizon actions for narrative reasons.

Therefore, to argue that the BZ will degrade defense against Horizon actions is to argue that Oneiros is giving us an option that will do the opposite of what it is advertised ... because apparently you're convinced he won't rejigger the tables and narrative for raisins? Certainly not for any kind of in universe reason.

There is no possible in universe justification for what you're saying. Which means your scenario is NOT a logical outcome outcome of our actions, it's the QM being a dick and making our decision do the opposite of what it's obviously meant to do.

You are saying that Oneiros is laying a trap, and your insistence that he's not is rubbish.
I also, at considerable length, argued that a HBZ being useful against their diplomacy does not make narrative sense, for pretty much the same reason Oneiros mentioned for why they could still appear in federation territory. People keep using narrative arguments against my mechanical points and mechanical arguments against my narrative points when it makes no sense to do so.

It's an empirical fact that the event system is not fudged to make perfect sense. That wouldn't be remotely viable for this game. The mere existence of a sector causing more enemy actions isn't really any more screwy than the presence of better sensors causing there to be better mineral deposits, or event rolls retroactively creating new species including existing diplomatic relations with affiliates even though we never heard about them before.
Okay, that makes sense.

This still makes border zones crazy. It sounds like we should be declaring "border" zones in our interior and avoiding them at all costs on frontiers that we're contesting with actual enemies. Which, given that their intended purpose is to help defend us from actual enemies that we're contesting frontiers with...
Border zones are actually pretty good for defending against actual enemies, they do quite a lot to stop raids and mean there is ground you can yield to a large scale attack before losing anything critical. They just aren't good against antagonistic diplomacy that can penetrate them due to technically being at peace.
 
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Hey @OneirosTheWriter I see you're peeking in. Please answer this if you can. I am trying to look at what a revised fleet distribution should be given a possible HBZ and Seyek Sector, etc.

What quarter should we expect the ships sent to Gabriel as reinforcements to be back in their sectors?

What quarter should we have to garrison a new member's sector?

What quarter would we have to garrison a Horizon Border Zone?


Thanks.
Q4
 
She's not my candidate concept so I have no idea.
What was your character concept, just curious?

We All Know Who:

"...Oh, my."
And the thing is, we've seen a lot of Dev + Hawk teamups before, so you know he's going to have a lot of chances to whisper in N'Gir's ear, passing himself off as the authority on how to get Starfleet to do what she wants. :(

EDIT: At least there's one silver lining here, and that's even if Sulu had burned his job to let Nash go for an immediate response, being fired wouldn't be a hindrance to him eventually coming back as Federation President as he had in canon. :p
 
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What was your character concept, just curious?
Here's a few excerpts from the draft I wrote up for the first 'quest post' of my "at last, the 2235 show!" concept. She is here being considered for the role of first CO of the Explorer Corps.

I said:
Captain T'Pak, Vulcan female
Born 2172
Chief of Staff, Klingon Border Zone

Captain T'Pak led Task Force Three's heroic stand against a 'renegade' Klingon battlegroup in the action off Archanis IV in 2229. She is one of Starfleet's most prominent fighting officers. Believing that Federation military preparedness is a logical reaction to Klingon aggression and the enigmatic Romulan threat, she literally wrote the book on heavy cruiser tactical operations.

While T'Pak recognizes that the Explorer Corps is not an elite military unit in the usual sense, she advocates careful efforts to prepare the Corps to respond to the most desperate emergencies in Federation space. She argues that these powerful ships with their crack crews have a special role in saving lives and protecting the Federation. She is inclined to focus on preparing the Explorer Corps to handle danger and the sometimes mysterious hazards of deep space.

She believes that the Explorer Corps' greatest role is to serve as "challengers of the unknown," to boldly go where no others have gone before.
I said:
April 2229:

General Kagaz, a noted Klingon warlord and tactician, takes command of Klingon forces in the disputed zone, with a force of four D5 battlecruisers led by the advanced ship IKZ Akva, of the then newly-identified "D6" class. He is supported by numerous scouts and Bird-of-Prey craft. Identifying the most threatened targets, Rear Admiral glov Korg divides the bulk of the Klingon Border Zone fleet into three task forces, reinforced by supporting ships, mostly drawn from the Andorian Navy.

Glov Korg attempts a feint by moving two roughly equal task forces (Two and Three) to forward outposts in the disputed zone, the dilithium mine at Archanis IV, and the biological research outpost at Tarsus IV. He directs his ships to make conspicuous signals revealing their presence. He then orders four of his fastest and newest ships to make a speed run under emissions control, with counter-detection protocols being run by the two Vulcan cruisers, from one task force to the other.

Thus Kagaz strikes at Archanis IV, the more desirable target- which unbeknownst to him has been significantly reinforced. However, the Klingons still have a powerful striking force and a heavily armed fleet. Early in the engagement, Kagaz succeds in killing Commodore Jiang aboard the flagship USS Lor'Vela by ordering his heaviest ships to concentrate their fire on a few of the relatively smaller Federation cruisers.

As senior-ranking captain, Captain T'Pak of the USS Cheron takes over the task force in the wake of the commodore's death. She deftly disengages the Federation fleet and leads Task Force Three in a running battle with the Klingons for hours, falling back slowly towards the Archanis IV colony. Several times, she manages to delay the larger Klingon force with precisely-timed counterattacks. T'Pak coordinates her cruisers and the heavily-gunned Andorian frigates to scatter the Klingon escorts and inflict minor damage on the battlecruisers.

Meanwhile, colony engineers on Archanis IV set up field generators to flood the planet's radiation belts with charged particle bursts. T'Pak takes up positions in the planetary thermosphere, draws the Klingons into close range, and triggers the burst generators, dissipating the Klingon shields and significantly impairing their fire control.

At the end of the day, three of the Klingon capital ships have been wrecked, Kagaz's flagship is heavily damaged, and at least seven smaller vessels have been accounted for. The Federation has lost three cruisers and four frigates. No further Klingon attacks occur for the next four years.

The Chancellor explains to an ambassadorial team from Vulcan that Kagaz sought to take over Archanis IV's dilithium to fuel personal ambitions against the High Council. Admiral Kagaz is summarily executed for exceeding his authority in attacking the Federation colony, though suspicions of treason are not proven to the satisfaction of Federation authorities.

Basically, I imagine her being to the 2240s and 2250s what Ainsworth is to our period of Federation history. Her coming out of retirement after this long might be a considerable surprise, but she knows how to make a convincing case for military preparedness to a bunch of Vulcans like few other living beings.



I'm impressed that you're even trying to write a character like Halkh. I wouldn't know how to begin making an argument in defense of the Arcadian Empire.
I don't think you understand Halkh very well, if you think that's what he's doing. Treating him like a simple Arcadian apologist is a pretty major strawmanning of his views.

Firstly, we need to distinguish between the "Arcadian Empire" and the "Licori species." The two are not the same, any more than the "Roman Empire" and the "Latin-speaking peoples" were the same. There was a Licori species before the Empire took its present form. There will continue to be a Licori species now that it is gone.

That species has certain collective biological traits and collective cultural values. Some of those traits and aptitudes were twisted into dangerous or evil paths by the nature of the Arcadian imperial government. Others were unaffected, or even actively cultivated into virtues. Changing the Licori government may well change a great deal about what the Licori species does, without changing the nature of the species.

Understanding this is critical to understanding Halkh.

...

Halkh is one of the figures trying to lead a nascent Licori nationalist movement, as distinct from the "Arcadian Empire" that is personally loyal to a "king of kings" monarch whose power flows from being the head of the strongest of the aristocratic Houses. This is alluded to in the second half of Wine and Song and some of Nash's logs.

On the one hand, he has no problem admitting that huge swathes of the Arcadian government were deeply, grotesquely flawed. He's wrestling with trying to understand what in his culture made those flaws possible, and he's taking what steps he can behind the scenes to fix them on an institutional level, even when he might well be able to achieve greater personal success by playing the usual games of House against House.

On the other hand, he IS a Licori nationalist. While he's got a keen sense of his own limitations, and those of others, he does not have a self-loathing or own-species-loathing bone in his body. He's not going to spit on his species and culture as a whole, purely because under a poorly structured government, it led to an escalating series of bad outcomes inflicted on them by foreign powers. He reacted to the war by resolving to learn from his conquerors, not by being abjectly broken and resolving to serve and imitate them in all ways.

...

So for example, he's not going to shed a single tear for House Kortennon, both because of his personal grudges and because of his contempt for them. If someone had given him the powers of a Q, it's a safe bet that within minutes if not seconds, every member of that House who had ever held decision-making authority would have died screaming. There might be a few exceptions, I suppose- but not many.

He's not going to shed more than a couple of sentimental tears over the fall of the Arcadian Empire- and those mostly over the high culture of its court, which he has personal nostalgic experience with, which has nothing to do with what he believes to be objectively right or wrong. He'd miss the dog he had twenty years ago, too, without denying it had to be put down for its own good.

He's not going to pretend other nations don't have a right to defend themselves against existential threats, or that creating weapons which present such a threat isn't a grave provocation. He was entirely unsurprised that the Federation declared war after the Courageous Incident, and if everyone involved had listened to him that incident would never have happened. Not least because every Kortennon of any note would have died screaming instead of continuing to fund star-breaker research.

He fully intends to do what he can to arrange matters so that all forms of abject servitude are abolished from Licori space to the greatest extent possible, so that the Licori treat all beings with dignity and respect, and so that the power of the noble houses be either broken or reshaped into a more constructive form.

...

At the same time, Halkh's not going to 'admit' that the existence of mentats is or was a bad thing. He considers their reduced lifespan a noble sacrifice made in the causes of science, art, and the greater good of Licori civilization. Their instability? A reason to manage mentats carefully, no doubt, but he's not going to harshly judge beings that are by far his intellectual superiors if they seem a bit... twitchy... to his eyes.

He believes a great many technological marvels and irreplaceable talents were destroyed with the fall of Ixaria, and he mourns their loss.

He's not going to 'overcome' his dislike and distrust of mechanical computers. Not quickly, and maybe not ever. He believes his people have good reasons to harbor that belief, and I strongly suspect they do have reasons. He's not going to ignore or dismiss them just because other species have so far succeeded in avoiding disaster by following the 'thinking machine' route, even as the Licori were matching or surpassing them by following the 'mentat' route.

He's not going to abandon the personal belief that good people can do terrible things in extremity, and still be good people. Of course, he also believes that sometimes you have to do the best you can to kill good people. There's a reason he was able to affably share a glass of wine with Nash, and play songs to entertain her command team around the dinner table, after she'd just gotten done kicking the tar out of both his own flagship and the Imperial fleet and government as a whole.

...

Halkh is, in short, a Licori reformer, with both words being important to understanding who and what he is. He is not an Arcadian Empire diehard, and has no wish to preserve any of the forms of that government except insofar as they are useful or directly create something he loves. But he is not a Federation mini-me. He does not share all the Federation's values, nor does he oppose all that the Federation opposes.

Consequently, he's not going to thank the Federation for blowing up "the rot." Even if you convinced him that it was necessary, you'd never convince him to be grateful.
 
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I also, at considerable length, argued that a HBZ being useful against their diplomacy does not make narrative sense, for pretty much the same reason Oneiros mentioned for why they could still appear in federation territory. People keep using narrative arguments against my mechanical points and mechanical arguments against my narrative points when it makes no sense to do so.

It's an empirical fact that the event system is not fudged to make perfect sense. That wouldn't be remotely viable for this game. The mere existence of a sector causing more enemy actions isn't really any more screwy than the presence of better sensors causing there to be better mineral deposits, or event rolls retroactively creating new species including existing diplomatic relations with affiliates even though we never heard about them before.

Border zones are actually pretty good for defending against actual enemies, they do quite a lot to stop raids and mean there is ground you can yield to a large scale attack before losing anything critical. They just aren't good against antagonistic diplomacy that can penetrate them due to technically being at peace.
You've never actually given a sensible narrative argument for it being counterproductive or pointless. For it not stopping it cold? Sure. For having the negative mechanical result you claim? Nope. For having no result? Nope.

After all, you STILL haven't explained how early warning and interception is not useful at a narrative level.

And that negative mechanical result is BY DEFINITION a trap option. It is a claim that an option will cause the opposite of what it is advertised as without narrative justification. I really don't care if you claim you're not claiming it's a trap, because that's you bullshitting.
 
Border zones are actually pretty good for defending against actual enemies, they do quite a lot to stop raids and mean there is ground you can yield to a large scale attack before losing anything critical. They just aren't good against antagonistic diplomacy that can penetrate them due to technically being at peace.
We've already been told that a HBZ would improve our ability to monitor the Horizon's efforts in the area. Which means to me that the HBZ would specifically be tailored to their brand of shenanigans. For example, one of the very first things to do in a hypothetical HBZ would be to declare it a restricted flight area, requiring all entrants to stop for customs and visa checks and file a flight plan. The Horizon, if it wants to remain nominally peaceful, would have to let us just follow them around with our own Explorers, crippling their operations.

edit: And, if you think that Starfleet would be stupid and inflexible to misapply a military DMZ because it's the only thing in their rigid, rote playbook, why not propose an alternative that doesn't have those problems? We've discussed something like a "Special Diplomacy Zone" before.
 
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[X][TECH] Aerocommando Research Corps (Sk 3, Personal Equipment)
[X] Plan Knowledge is Power
 
I don't have time to fully read and understand all the arguments for and against HBZ, berths yes/no/where. The, at time of posting, leading vote does not anything that jumps out at me as objectionable, so I will go with the herd at this time.

[X][TECH] Aerocommando Research Corps (Sk 3, Personal Equipment)
[X] Plan Knowledge is Power
 
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So there seems to be some concern about how we cover the Horizon Border Zone and the new Seyek sector. Guys, like this.... (kept previously voted distribution as much as possible.) So I trust this demonstrates we can cover everything? Remember, single ship sectors are covered by Mutual Support.

QM has confirmed that reinforcements to GBZ will be back home by Q4 unless in dock for repairs. Note that unless we lose nearly ever reinforcement ship, there shouldn't be any problems if some of them are delayed coming home.

Late 2318 Fleet Distribution

Fleet Strength/Requirements Changes
2318.Q2 – Spirit [Excelsior, UP Berth A] completes
2318.Q2 – Opportunity [Excelsior, UP Berth C] completes – Explorer Corps
2318.Q2 – Renaissance [LOCF Berth 1] completes
2318.Q2 – Selaya [Constellation] goes into refit
2318.Q2 – Ships depart for GBZ Reinforcement Operations
2318.Q3 – Kearsage completes refit as Constellation-A
2318.Q3 – Vigour completes refit as Constellation-A
2318.Q3 – Docana [Constellation] goes into refit
2318.Q4 – Mutual Support comes into effect
2318.Q4 – Caldonian Peacekeeping Operation Ends
2318.Q4 – Seyek Sector?? Established (Assume Requires up to D10)
2318.Q4 – Horizon Border Zone Established? (Assume Requires D11)
2318.Q4 – Ships return from GBZ Reinforcement Operations


Sol Sector – Requires D18 (Supported by LBZ and SBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 10 = 3 homeworlds (Earth, Betazed, Gaen), 7 other major worlds)
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Pathfinder], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Lightning], 2 Starbase I (12) [Earth, Betazed] = 21D
  • 2318.Q2 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Pathfinder], 2 Starbase I (12) [Earth, Betazed] = 18D
  • 2318.Q4 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Pathfinder], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Lightning], 2 Starbase I (12) [Earth, Betazed] = 21D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2 Lightning leaves for GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 the Lightning returns unless it's been damaged.
Vulcan Sector – Requires D10 (supported by RBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 5 = 1 homeworld (Vulcan), 4 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1– 1 Constellation (3) [Docana], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Lion], Starbase I (6) = 11D
  • 2318.Q3 - 1 Constellation-A (4) [Kearsage], Starbase I (6) = 10D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q3, Docana goes into refit and is replaced by Kearsage coming out of refit and Lion goes to SBZ.
Andor Sector – Requires D7 (supported by RBZ and KBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 5 = 1 homeworld (Andoria), 4 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Huascar], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Dryad], Starbase I (6) = 13D
  • 2318.Q2 – 1 Miranda-A (2) [Dryad], Starbase I (6) = 8D
  • 2318.Q4 - 1 Constitution-B (5) [Huascar], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Dryad], Starbase I (6) = 13D
  • Notes: Dryad arrives from refit in 2318.Q1. In 2318.Q2 the Huascar goes to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 the Huascar returns from GBZ reinforcements unless it's been damaged, and the Dryad goes to CBZ (unless Huascar can't return due to damage).
Tellar Sector – Requires D7 (supported by SBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 4 = 1 homeworld (Tellar Prime), 3 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Constellation-A (4) [Challorn], Starbase I (6), Extra Outposts (5) = 15D.
  • Notes: No change.
Amarkia Sector – Requires D7 (supported by SBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 4 = 1 homeworld (Amarkia), 3 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 1 Constellation-A (4) [Sappho], Starbase I (6), Extra Outposts (5) = 15D
  • Notes: No change.
Ferasa Sector – Requires D10 (supported by KBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 10 = 3 homeworlds,(Ferasa, Risa, Aqueniou), 7 other major worlds)
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Excelsior-A (6) [Endurance], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Defiant], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], Starbase I (6) = 20D
  • 2318.Q2 - 1 Constitution-B (5) [Defiant], Starbase I (6) = 11D
  • 2318.Q4 – 1 Excelsior-A (6) [Endurance], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Defiant], Starbase I (6) = 17D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2, Endurance and Bull go to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 Endurance returns if undamaged. (Bull remains in GBZ.)
Rigel Sector – Requires D7 (supported by LBZ and SBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 8 = 3 homeworlds (Rigel, Okatha, Vail), 5 other major worlds)
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Excelsior (6) [Avandar], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Korolev], 1 Constellation (3) [Selaya], Starbase I (6) = 20D
  • 2318.Q2 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Korolev], Starbase I (6) = 17D
  • 2318.Q3 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Korolev], 1 Constellation-A (4) [Vigour], Starbase I (6) = 17D
  • 2318.Q4 - 1 Constellation-A (4) [Vigour], Starbase I (6) = 10D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2 Selaya goes into refit and Avandar goes to GBZ reinforcements, In 2318.Q3 Vigour is added coming out of refit. In 2318.Q4 Korolev goes to Horizon Border Zone.
Apinae Sector – Requires D10 (supported by CBZ and SBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 6 = 2 homeworlds (Apinae, Indoria), 4 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 1 Constitution-B (5) [Valiant], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Yukikaze], 2 Starbase I (12) [Grand Hive of Apinae, Indorian Starbase], Extra Outposts [5] = 25D
  • As of 2318.Q2 - 1 Constitution-B (5) [Valiant], 2 Starbase I (12) [Grand Hive of Apinae, Indorian Starbase], Extra Outposts [5] = 22D
  • As of 2318.Q4 - 1 Constitution-B (5) [Valiant], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Yukikaze], 2 Starbase I (12) [Grand Hive of Apinae, Indorian Starbase], Extra Outposts [5] = 25D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2 Yukikaze goes to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 Yukikaze returns if undamaged.
Alukk Sector – Requires D7 (supported by CBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 5 = 1 homeworld (Alukk), 4 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Centaur-A (3) [Winterwind], 1 Starbase (6) [Alukk Station] = 9D
  • 2318.Q2 – No change.
  • Notes: No change.
Seyek Sector – Requires D10 as of 2318.Q4 (supported by CBZ)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: ????
  • 2318.Q4 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood], 1 Starbase (6) [Seyek Starbase] = 11D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q4 Hood arrives from Caldonian Peacekeeping mission.
Romulan Border Zone – Requires D15 (Supports Vulcan and Andoria sectors)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 1 major world (Solitude)
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Pleezirra], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Cloudburst], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Calypso], 1 Oberth (1) [Inspire], Starbase I (6) = 18D
  • 2318.Q2 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Pleezirra], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Cloudburst], Starbase I (6) = 15D
  • 2318.Q4 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Pleezirra], 2 Centaur-A (6) [Cloudburst, Gale], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Calypso], 1 Oberth (1) [Inspire], Starbase I (6) = 21D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2 Calypso and Inspire go to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 Calypso and Inspire return if undamaged, and Gale also arrives. (Gale originally from SBZ.)
Klingon Border Zone – Requires D10 (Supports Andor and Ferasa Sectors)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 3 = 1 homeworld (Caldonia), 2 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Thirishar], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Typhoon], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Dynamo], 1 Oberth (1) [Hawking], 1 Starbase I (6) [Shrantet] = 18D
  • 2318.Q2 - 1 Centaur-A (3) [Typhoon], 1 Oberth (1) [Hawking], 1 Starbase I (6) [Shrantet] = 10D
  • 2318.Q4 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Thirishar], 1 Constellation (3) [Stalwart], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Typhoon], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Dynamo], 1 Oberth (1) [Hawking], 1 Starbase I (6) [Shrantet] = 21D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2, Thirishar and Dynamo go to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 Thirishar and Dynamo return unless damaged and Stalwart arrives from Caldonian Peacekeeping mission.
Cardassian Border Zone – Requires D12 (Supports Alukk and Apinae sectors)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 2 homeworlds (Rethelia, Fiiral), 2 other major worlds
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Excelsior (6) [Salnas], 1 Renaissance (5) [Reason], 1 Oberth (1) [T'Mir], 1 Starbase I (6) [Lapycorias] = 18D
  • 2318.Q2 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Salnas], 1 Oberth (1) [T'Mir], 1 Starbase I (6) [Lapycorias] = 13D
  • 2318.Q4 – 1 Excelsior-A (6) [Spirit], 1 Excelsior (6) [Salnas], 1 Renaissance (5) [Reason], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Dryad], 1 Oberth (1) [T'Mir], 1 Starbase I (6) [Lapycorias] = 26D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2, Reason goes to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 the Reason and Spirit from GBZ reinforcements unless damaged and Dryad arrives from Andor Sector.
Sydraxian Border Zone – Requires D11 (Supports Apinae, Amarkia, Tellar, Sol, and Rigel sectors)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 2 major worlds (Vega, Klivvar Proxima)
  • As of 2318.Q1 – 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], 2 Centaur-A (6) [Gale, Zephyr], Starbase I (6) [Vega] = 17D
  • 2318.Q2 – 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], 1 Renaissance (5) [LOCF Berth 1], Starbase I (6) [Vega] = 16D
  • 2318.Q3 – 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], 1 Renaissance (5) [LOCF Berth 1], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Lion], Starbase I (6) [Vega] = 18D
  • 2318.Q4 – 1 Excelsior-A (6) [Avandar], 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], 1 Renaissance (5) [LOCF Berth 1], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr]. 1 Miranda-A (2) [Lion], Starbase I (6) [Vega] = 27D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q2, new Renaissance arrives while Zephyr and Gale go to GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q3, Lion arrives from Vulcan. In 2318.Q4 the Avandar and Zephyr arrive from GBZ Reinforcements unless damaged. (Gale goes to RBZ.)

Licori Border Zone – Requires D11 (Supports Sol and Rigel sectors)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: 1 homeworld (Paddah), 3 other major worlds
  • As of 2317.Q4 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Rru'adorr], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Lexington], 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel] = 12D
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Rru'adorr], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Lexington], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Svai], 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel] = 14D
  • 2318.Q2 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Rru'adorr], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Lexington], 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel] = 12D
  • 2319.Q1 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Rru'adorr], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Lexington], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Svai], 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel] = 14D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q1, Svai arrives from Amarkia sector. In 2318.Q2 Svai goes to GBZ reinforcements. In 2319.Q1 Svai returns from GBZ reinforcements unless damaged.
Horizon Border Zone – Requires D11 as of 2318.Q4 (Supports Rigel sector)
  • Homeworlds/Major Worlds in sector: ????
  • 2318.Q4 - 1 Excelsior-A (6) [Sojurner], 1 Constitution-B (5) [Korolev] = 11D
  • Notes: In 2318.Q4, Sojourner arrives from GBZ unless damaged and Korolev arrives from Rigel. (If Sojourner damaged, put in Avandar instead... SBZ can afford to wait for Excelsior.)
Caldonian Peacekeeping Mission – Requires D8 from 2316.Q4 through 2318.Q3
  • As of 2317.Q4 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood], 1 Constellation (3) [Stalwart] = D8
  • 2318.Q4 – Mission over.
  • Notes: Hood goes to Seyek Sector and Stalwart goes to KBZ.

Gabriel Border Zone – Requirement Left to Starfleet judgment
  • As of 2318.Q1 - 2 Excelsior-A (12) [Sojourner, Excelsior], 2 Constitution-B (10) [Exeter, Saratoga], 4 Renaissance (20) [Renaissance, Epiphany, Enlightenment, Insight], 11 Miranda-A (22) [T'Kumbra, Agile, Bantam, Clarion, Fidelity, Bon Vivant, Shield, Intrepid, Eketha, Eclipse, Firefly] = 77 C.
  • 2318.Q2 – 2 Excelsior-A (12) [Sojourner, Excelsior], 2 Constitution-B (10) [Exeter, Saratoga], 4 Renaissance (20) [Renaissance, Epiphany, Enlightenment, Insight], 11 Miranda-A (22) [T'Kumbra, Agile, Bantam, Clarion, Fidelity, Bon Vivant, Shield, Intrepid, Eketha, Eclipse, Firefly] + REINFORCEMENTS LISTED BELOW ARRIVING AND BECOMING ACTIVE
  • 2318.Q3 - 2 Excelsior-A (12) [Sojourner, Excelsior], 2 Constitution-B (10) [Exeter, Saratoga], 4 Renaissance (20) [Renaissance, Epiphany, Enlightenment, Insight], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], 11 Miranda-A (22) [T'Kumbra, Agile, Bantam, Clarion, Fidelity, Bon Vivant, Shield, Intrepid, Eketha, Eclipse, Firefly] = 81 C.
  • 2318.Q4 - 2 Excelsior-A (12) [Kumari, Excelsior], 2 Constitution-B (10) [Exeter, Saratoga], 4 Renaissance (20) [Renaissance, Epiphany, Enlightenment, Insight], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], 11 Miranda-A (22) [T'Kumbra, Agile, Bantam, Clarion, Fidelity, Bon Vivant, Shield, Intrepid, Eketha, Eclipse, Firefly] = 82 C.
  • Notes: In 2318.Q1 Republic is destroyed. In 2318.Q3 the Bull remains from GBZ reinforcements. In 2318.Q4 In 2318.Q4 the Kumari arrives from refit, the Sojourner goes to the HBZ.

Gabriel Border Zone Reinforcements – Arrive in 2318.Q2, active in 2318.Q3, then return home over 2318.Q4.
  • In 2318.Q2 the following arrive. Lightning (Centaur-A) from Sol Sector, Husacar (Constitution-B) from Andor Sector, Endurance (Excelsior-A) and Bull (Blooded Centaur-A) from Ferasa Sector, Avandar (Excelsior) from Rigel Sector, Yukikaze (Blooded Centaur-A) from Apinae Sector, Inspire (Oberth) and Calypso (Miranda-A) from RBZ, Thirishar (Blooded Excelsior) and Dynamo (Miranda-A) from KBZ, Spirit (Excelsior-A) and Reason (Renaissance) from CBZ, Zephyr (Blooded Centaur-A) and Gale (Blooded Centaur-A) from SBZ, and Svai (Miranda-A) from LBZ.
  • In 2318.Q4 they go home, except for Bull, which remains behind in GBZ.
 
Suffice to say that all Cardassian intelligence operations in our space will suddenly get a lot more difficult with Federation forces placed on unusually high alert due to the known success of a Cardassian sabotage attempt. It's certainly possible that the Cardassians have succeeded in penetrating our security defenses with a lot of infiltrators, but if so, then if those infiltrators "go active" in an attempt to further undermine our response, they are going to reveal themselves in droves. It's not a one-sided issue.

Moreover, going on a hunt for the spies for several months before attacking lets the enemy make purely military preparations that will work whether the enemy has any spies for us to find or not...

This is getting silly, maybe I am having problems getting this though but...
It is not about them having more difficulty from pulling another op, but them passing data at a critical time. Intel operatives are, ultimately, expendable and you can trade them for a payout that you consider more profitable than the asset itself.
As areal world example, in the prelude of the Six Day War, Israel had managed to insert a spy in Syria, the man most notable contribution to the war was that during a tour of the fortifications, he feigned sympathy for the soldiers and planted a few trees near the hard points.

When the Six day war kicked off, the IDF used those trees as target designators.
Of course, this eventually led to him being exposed and executed.

The point here is that this is the sort of thing we would expect in an intel op. and that the other side is probably willing to expend the lives of their operatives for a good enough payoff.

So, let's pretend the Republic got wrecked from the inside by an Obsidian order operator or what not that exist within the logistic command.
Let's even assume that the operative is still there.

Now, the issue is that wethere or not we can hunt him or not, the issue here is that if we go on the offensive now, he will be able to let his masters know of this, probably by using some indirect means (message to some penpal in a neutral state, for instance, though it could be more circumspect) so, we go on the offensive and he passes an innocuous message to his friend and the obsidian order or the Cardassian navy or whomever is running the show, uses that data to hurt us/
How? well, for the offensive, we will be moving our forces, consolidating them and going to limit navy presence in other areas... that can give a raiding force the opportunity to do a lot of harm.

Let's assume the Cardies have a better measure of us by now, because assuming competence on your foes is the reasonable thing to do, they know we live and die by popular opinion... so... put those two bits together and we have the beginning of a plan.

The Republic has, in this hypothetical, two functions: the cardies have a better understanding of our response times and, if we bite the lure, would also allow them to try and attack us to one of our more vulnerable points: public opinion, make us look like fools and unsuitable to protect the federation Gabriel Expanse Interests.


This is an elaborate scenario, but the cardies aren't half bad at the intel game and don't have the same limitations we do there. The point is not me being right or not, is to know how they managed the feat, which is no the same as going full "Death to Spies" on them (Hell, you don't want that anyway, better to flip them) but trying to get some awareness of how badly we were fucked, if at all.
I trust Linderly and his people will manage it all right, but if we are infiltrated, launching an offensive could be rather risky, not to mention it could also be used to try and detect those spies

Hell, it could also be that the cardies used a more circumspect method of beaming the explosives aboard the Republic, using a lure or a booby trap, but I'd rather have more data before making such a risky vote. this was my point, by the by. Get data, analyize it and see how we stand before doing something that could get us shitcanned for no good reason
 
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