To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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- somewhere
I gave irritating affiliates as a potential reason for being counter-productive, and avoiding that as potential reason for being pointless. Even the mere act of unilaterally claiming a region of space enveloping them merely to monitor who they are talking to has potential for some moderate backlash. If you mean a narrative reason that exactly matches the mechanical reason, that's an unreasonable request unless you can show that mechanical and narrative reasons always perfectly match in every other case in this game, in particular in the examples I already gave.
If you define any negative mechanical result, even a predictable one that is only an extension of the existing rules, as a trap that has almost nothing to do with the usual understanding of the term trap option, and I do not think "trap options" under that definition are a bad thing at all.
Or they can just refuse to recognize our arbitrary territory grab if we are being too unreasonable about it, and dare us to try and enforce it by shooting first. It's not like we have any good justification for the territory claim in the fist place, and I don't think either the council or our coreward affiliates (other than the Tauni) will be particularly delighted by us starting a war over them not letting us bully them into not talking to our affiliates by way of claiming a stretch of space tens of light years from our nearest existing colonies and then enforcing restrictive rules.
In the case of the other border zones we already had 1. existing colonies in the area and 2. a much better reason to shoot at the party the border zones were meant to protect against.
aledeth
The Flesh is Weak
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Border Zone as it's been proved viable. I think it's the most likely to let you poach votes too
Okay guys, I wasn't going to argue seriously because it was supposed to be a joke plan, but....
Plan Yathcha's More Realistic Dream is not a plan you should vote for.
1. There is no need to start plans for a new UP style shipyard. The one we have is barely starting to pay off.
2. The Alukk shipyard is a bad deal that doesn't even get us a 3mt berth and is going to increase our route penalties. It's also at the cost expanding our auxiliary yard and getting some more immediately useful 1mt berths.
3. There is no need to put Critical Infrastructure in Alukk. There are better locations.
It's just.... not a good deal. I haven't seen anyone in this thread make any argument for it beyond LULZ.
Plan Yathcha's More Realistic Dream is not a plan you should vote for.
1. There is no need to start plans for a new UP style shipyard. The one we have is barely starting to pay off.
2. The Alukk shipyard is a bad deal that doesn't even get us a 3mt berth and is going to increase our route penalties. It's also at the cost expanding our auxiliary yard and getting some more immediately useful 1mt berths.
3. There is no need to put Critical Infrastructure in Alukk. There are better locations.
It's just.... not a good deal. I haven't seen anyone in this thread make any argument for it beyond LULZ.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"Affiliates get irritated by Starfleet internal command structure changes" is not a plausible argument.
I am assuming our affiliates are smart enough to recognize that these are subversion attempts, just as we have. Moreover, we're ALREADY monitoring who is talking to who when the means are warships, because tracking that kind of thing is our job.
It is NOT a predictable result on a narrative level, and it's only predictable mechanically if we assume Oneiros is suddenly going to lose his touch for Gameplay and Story Integration and NOT tweak the event tables, response tables and response narratives to fit the changing plotline like he has so many other times.
Barring foreign warships from entry without prior authorization is the default state of affairs. It's not at all restrictive.
You're arguing that enforcing the way things normally work will produce a problem.
This is another case of people mistaking canon SOP for some kind of radical action.
And you're ALSO assuming it's a gross land grab rather than reorging force allocations over existing claims plus maybe a LY or two like the last few times.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
As far as I can tell, everyone in that area is officially a Federation Affiliate and less than 50 out of 500 points away from full official membership. And remember that at one point they landed on Rigel to shit-talk us. And your own belief is that the current "Declare HBZ" plan amounts to creating a DMZ and putting enough combat power in it to blunt a military offensive! How would a restricted flight zone be any less politically acceptable than "If you fly in here we will shoot you"?
On top of that, do you really think they'd start a shooting war given their focus on peaceful diplomacy? And don't get me wrong, that wouldn't be "Starfleet shot first", that'd be "Horizon military unit violates restricted space, ignores repeated warnings, and is shot down when it approaches a populated planet with uncertain intent".
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Jenny
anonymous user
- Location
- maryland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sorry, but I just changed my plan to do the Horizon Border Zone instead of the Celos Medical Centre. So.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[You know what? Even trying to keep track of all the plans this Snakepit is effectively impossible, and my usual methodology for comparing the plans doesn't work because things don't reduce neatly to "most of the viable plans agree on most things, but differ on a few critical points." It's just too much.]
EDIT:
So I'm going to do something completely different than all this Snakepit discussion. I'm going to wrap up Ship of Aeons. Just a few finishing touches...
]
EDIT:
So I'm going to do something completely different than all this Snakepit discussion. I'm going to wrap up Ship of Aeons. Just a few finishing touches...
]
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@OneirosTheWriter -- Since the Pacifist candidate who won Earth isn't Mbeki, does that Mbeki is likely to have signed up with the Expansionists and may show up again in 6 years at the next election? (Rob Langford has been in the game since start, so he's probably looking at retirement at this point.)
@OneirosTheWriter
For the sake of clarity, would a Horizon Border Zone help us defeat the Horizon's diplomatic efforts? What does the FDS think of a HBZ?
For the sake of clarity, would a Horizon Border Zone help us defeat the Horizon's diplomatic efforts? What does the FDS think of a HBZ?
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I doubt he's starting his political career by running for Federation Councillor. He's probably going to run for office in the UESPA or Earth government and get some political experience first. Name recognition can only get you so far.
Edit: Alternatively, he's living and campaigning for a different seat. He was born on Earth but nothing says he has to run for their seat now. He could be on Vega or Alpha Centauri for all we know.
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Okay, this is a little weird, but.... I could actually see Mbeki running for a Caldonian seat once they're members.
Yes, he's from a different species, but there's still a lot of mutual mistrust in their politics. Mbeki could credibly promise to fight for Caldonia in the Council. He's much loved there.
That... would be kinda awesome. *steals*
And I suppose it leaves the way clear for Sulu to come back as Expansionist candidate next election...
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Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I considered that actually, but I think he'd run into the issue that political influence in Caldonia is still very much tied to scientific prowess. And while Mbeki is a smart man, I doubt he has the academic credentials necessary to convince enough Caldonians that he's preferable to someone more accredited. Not ruling it out, but I don't think it's likely.
Omake - Ship of Aeons Epilogue - Simon_Jester
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Ship of Aeons
OR
Once More, With Feeling
Epilogue
Strangers drawn from the ends of the world, jewelled and plumed were we;
She a knight of the winter race, and I was Queen of the Sea.
Under the stars beyond our stars where the new-forged meteors glow,
Hotly we stormed Valhalla, ten million years ago!
Dust of the stars was under our feet, glitter of stars above—
Wrecks of our wrath dropped reeling down as we fought and we spurned and we strove.
Worlds upon worlds we tossed aside, and scattered them to and fro,
The night that we stormed Valhalla, ten million years ago!
I with the star she had marked for her own— she with her set desire—
Lost in the loom of the Night of Nights— lighted by worlds afire—
Met in a war against the Gods where the headlong meteors glow,
Hewing our way to Valhalla, ten million years ago!
Ever 'neath high Valhalla Hall the well-tuned horns begin,
When the swords are out in the underworld, and the weary Gods come in.
Ever through high Valhalla Gate the Patient Angel goes
He opens the eyes that are blind with hate— he joins the hands of foes.
We are forgiven, as we forgive, all those dark wounds and deep,
Our beds are made on the lap of Time, and we lie down and sleep.
We are forgiven, as we forgive, all those old wounds that bleed.
We shut our eyes from our worshippers; we sleep till the world has need.
I will come back- come back again, as long as the blue worlds roll.
He never wasted a leaf or a tree. Do you think He would waste a soul?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OR
Once More, With Feeling
Epilogue
Strangers drawn from the ends of the world, jewelled and plumed were we;
She a knight of the winter race, and I was Queen of the Sea.
Under the stars beyond our stars where the new-forged meteors glow,
Hotly we stormed Valhalla, ten million years ago!
Dust of the stars was under our feet, glitter of stars above—
Wrecks of our wrath dropped reeling down as we fought and we spurned and we strove.
Worlds upon worlds we tossed aside, and scattered them to and fro,
The night that we stormed Valhalla, ten million years ago!
I with the star she had marked for her own— she with her set desire—
Lost in the loom of the Night of Nights— lighted by worlds afire—
Met in a war against the Gods where the headlong meteors glow,
Hewing our way to Valhalla, ten million years ago!
Ever 'neath high Valhalla Hall the well-tuned horns begin,
When the swords are out in the underworld, and the weary Gods come in.
Ever through high Valhalla Gate the Patient Angel goes
He opens the eyes that are blind with hate— he joins the hands of foes.
We are forgiven, as we forgive, all those dark wounds and deep,
Our beds are made on the lap of Time, and we lie down and sleep.
We are forgiven, as we forgive, all those old wounds that bleed.
We shut our eyes from our worshippers; we sleep till the world has need.
I will come back- come back again, as long as the blue worlds roll.
He never wasted a leaf or a tree. Do you think He would waste a soul?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharren Family Ice-Bunker
Shae Ice Shelf, Andor
2273
"Mommy, mummy, look what I made!"
Two women of the Sharren household turned from their light-sculpture as their daughter rushed excitedly around the corner, waving a broad piece of old-fashioned hardcopy- her latest work of art, in traditional crayon.
The girl bounced up and down in place, waving the paper. "It's my spaceship!"
They looked, as one, at the drawing.
Tylessah pointed to two figures in the middle of the picture. "And who's this?"
The stick figure in the center of the ship's saucer was surely Nash's little self-portrait, going by the word "ME!!!" scrawled over it with big stars all around it. But the one beside her? The pale skin could almost be Andorian. Their daughter had plainly used solid, flesh-tone blue for the eyes, though. And the bright yellow hair marked her as an alien.
"That's the shen from Earth! She, uh... uh." Obviously making something up on the spot, the little zhen nodded firmly. "She flies the spaceship!"
"Ohhh, I see! This is very good, Nash. Did you copy this from the pictures of the Potemkin or the Republic?" Those ships had been in the news, the flagships of the Andor Sector fleet. Maybe Nash had been watching the news; her dear child's crayons seemed to have captured something almost real. More so than the common run of children's drawings, anyhow.
"Nope! My spaceship's going to be different. And faster. And bigger than both of them put together. And awesomer!" Nash folded her arms, looking up at them with that willful set of her jaw they were already learning to dread and love in turns.
They glanced meaningfully at each other, smiling, thinking the same thoughts. Her wife spoke first. "We're going on the Fleet museum trip we talked about. As soon as we can."
She nodded. "I'll talk to Thiss about it."
- Location
- USA
I just do not see a good tolerance for destroyed and damaged ships. During the offensive in the GBZ we are looking at 2 ships in most border zones and 1 in most core sectors and if we get a high amount of damaged and destroyed ships they will be spread even thinner after with both the HBZ and Seyek sectors to garrison. My main objection with the HBZ is it is not a good idea to do it this year when we don't know how long portions of our fleet will be in the yard for repairs. If the offensive had already happened or we had more of a reserve I could see it for this year, otherwise I think it needs to wait until next year when we don't have all of our flex capability deployed to the GBZ where some of it will be damaged/destroyed.
- Location
- somewhere
"Affiliates get irritated by Starfleet internal command structure changes" is a complete strawman. They would get irritated over the actions, and lack of any effect on our actions is just about the best case for "pointless" possible.
Recognizing them as subversion attempts that are legitimate to block is a far higher threshold than choosing not to talk to them on their own, so if you really think that there is little reason to worry about subversion in the first place.
We are arguing over the narrative side right now, so that seems to be unwarranted.
If you only want to restrict actual war ships (and not diplomatic couriers or whatever) and you want to put the HBZ between us and our affiliates rather than between our affiliates and the Horizon I don't see how the HBZ is supposed to have any positive narrative effect at all.
In the case of the CBZ we actually claimed a large stretch of new territory that enveloped our affiliates, initially the Amarki and Orion, later also the Apiata and Indorians. If the Cardassians had been behaving like the Horizons do I would have expected those claims to have led to considerable irritations, particularly if we hadn't already established a few colonies in that area (like we actually had for the CBZ). The SBZ was a mix between claiming new territory (much more than "a LY or two") and redesignating existing territory, but it wasn't supposed to do anything other than protecting our own existing territory, no affiliates involved. The LBZ was almost entirely new territory, with a few existing colonies in the area, and did envelop the Gaeni.
I don't see how any HBZ is supposed to actually fulfill the desired purpose of interfering with HoH diplomacy and not be a "gross land grab".
Being a Federation affiliate does not mean ceding their existing territory. The Honiani control who enters their space on their own and almost certainly wouldn't consent to splitting off a strip just so we can interfere in their diplomatic relationships or impose rules they don't agree with, such as harsher restrictions on Horizon ships than they currently have implemented anyway. A HBZ between the Honiani and the Horizion would need to be new territory far from any of our existing claims and colonies.
I never claimed that the HBZ would have "enough combat power in it to blunt a military offensive", if we had that many ships to spare for it it would be a lot less problematic. A restrict flight zone would be more acceptable than "if you fly in here we will shoot you", but less acceptable than the status quo in currently unclaimed space, and in particular less agreeable for the Horizon themselves, and them recognizing the territorial claim or not is entirely their own decision.
China claims almost the entirety of the South China Sea as economic exclusion zone, without much in the way of legitimization, and is building artificial islands there. Assume China claimed a curtain of territorial waters cutting off passage and then put arbitrary restrictions on US ships passing through. Would you describe US ships ignoring those restrictions as starting a war? How about if they didn't even bother building those artificial islands? Or how about if the area was actually much closer to the US main land than the Chinese main land?
Or to go back to the disputed islands, there are many cases were two sides alternatively visit the same uninhabited islands they both claim, and somehow no one considers the act of doing so starting a war. I'm reasonably sure that if a war started over such an incident most of the blame would be found with the side that started shooting.
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There's a big difference between "we can't cover" and "coverage might be a little thin until repairs are done". We could completely cover the HBZ and Seyek sector with nothing but the ships we get back from Caldonian Peacekeeping, that one Constellation that comes out of refit in Q3 to replace the one that went in Q2, and the Kumari. I can promise they won't be "spread even thinner".
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
Time for a Tally
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Now that's Development party talk - weren't you the one always griping about them?
Seriously, it's not inconceivable that an Expansionists and Pacifists coalition, the two parties in favor of bulk ascensions, would return to power in the next few years, which would return the state of affairs back to multiple ascensions per year.
I'm like 99% sure that the vast majority of voters here would be happy with multiple ascensions, if it wasn't for the sticker shock price of 180pp and the opportunity cost of other snakepit items this year. (Even though I do think 180pp would eventually pay off over the next half-decade of back-to-back ratifications, I can understand wanting to use that 180pp right now for other stuff.)
I actually disagree with this interpretation with respect to the snakepit option costs.
For the most part, it's the shipyard snakepit options that have increased in price, and that can easily be explained by just how incredibly large Starfleet's berth capacity has increased year-over-year since the 2315.
Meanwhile, ship infrastructure and heavy industry options have NOT increased in cost. That should tell you something on what the Development faction is advocating and the rest of the Council is starting to agree with.
Almost all the other cost increases are the typical increases that we'd expect from buying an option the previous year (like the +5pp for Academy Expansion).
I'd say HBZ. Oneiros alleviated my concern about a long-lasting GBZ surge, and I think Nix is being overblown on the risks of the HBZ.
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Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
[X] [COUNCIL] Plan Knowledge is Power
Changing my vote. My only problem with it is the HBZ but I can live with it since the rest of the list has everything else I wanted.
I canceled my list and voted again. This time for [] [COUNCIL] Plan Knowledge is Power. You should change your vote since it is no longer valid.
Changing my vote. My only problem with it is the HBZ but I can live with it since the rest of the list has everything else I wanted.
I canceled my list and voted again. This time for [] [COUNCIL] Plan Knowledge is Power. You should change your vote since it is no longer valid.