To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Deathbybunnies]

If it's no longer a flashpoint where the Cardassians have influence, then what do we lose from letting it cool a bit? One outpost and one cell of sympathizers is too few for an intel op, nevermind the mechanisms to control a client state for a decade.

Click to shrink...

They're still forming their government, and right now are deciding what their overall stance is going to be - we want to intervene to try and get them to consider the Federation as allies, instead of just going isolationist.

And I doubt that their influence is even remotely gone. One outpost and one cell of sympathizers is too few for an intel op, nevermind the mechanisms to control a client state for a decade.

Click to shrink...

The relevant update text explicitly states otherwise, so... you're just wrong?

[Gain +5 with Sydraxians, remaining Cardassian influence in Sydraxian space neutralised]

Click to shrink...

EDIT:
DOUBLE EDIT: Fixed the quote

 

[Chaos Blade]

That's what the result of wiping out the base clearly says though.

Click to shrink...

That doesn't mean they won't try again. Though admittedly it will be a while before they attempt to

This is a "For now", how long it least depends on how active our diplomats are.

Let's be honest, the Syndraxians are going to need friends and trade partners, we can choose to volunteer ourselves or let other power have influence there (though not necessarily Cardassia). do we want that to happen?

 

[Chronic]

Just what are our long term goals for our larger, non-compatible neighbors? The Romulans, and oddly (to a degree) the Klingons, we've kind of come to terms with. Should we try to do a cultural outreach to the Cardassians, try to blend our ways into their culture? I can't see decades of almost wars being a good solution, especially if by doing so creates a future logjam where one fight flares up, causing a 'me too!' 'me three!' dogpile happening.

Click to shrink...

Personally i think that with the Sydraxians broken out of the Ashalla pact we could afford to try and warm relations with the Cardassians a little. We could throw them a few bones, like accepting their corner of the GBZ as theirs (because we don't want the headache of occupying their colonies anyways) and negotiating an open supply corridor to the Dawiar even after we integrate their neighbors.

But i think the impetus for that has to come from the Federation Council, not Starfleet. We are not the ones setting foreign policy agenda, the government does.

The only thing i really want right now in the GBZ is a territorial connection to the ISC, preferably one that can't be intercepted by Yrillian pirates or the Horizonites.

 

[MS-21H 'Hawke']

Now that the band-aid is off: Do we need to deal with the Cardassians now that the Horizon are actually poking our members?

If the Cardassians and the Horizon find eachother, it will be bad, so I think we need to break the Cardassians as a military and intelligence threat.

 

[Hazard]

If the Cardassians and the Horizon find eachother, it will be bad, so I think we need to break the Cardassians as a military and intelligence threat.

Click to shrink...

The fact that the ISC is in the way will act like a useful buffer, and the ISC is likely to have the same opinion as us; let's not let the Cardassians and the Horizon meet eachother.

 

[Nervos Belli]

Now that the band-aid is off: Do we need to deal with the Cardassians now that the Horizon are actually poking our members?

If the Cardassians and the Horizon find eachother, it will be bad, so I think we need to break the Cardassians as a military and intelligence threat.

Click to shrink...

You say it like it's so easy.

 

[Leila Hann]

EDIT: shit forgot to put a Dylaarian.

 

[ThoughtMaster]

Now that the band-aid is off: Do we need to deal with the Cardassians now that the Horizon are actually poking our members?

If the Cardassians and the Horizon find eachother, it will be bad, so I think we need to break the Cardassians as a military and intelligence threat.

Click to shrink...

You seem to be under the impression that they would be able to get along when they meet. I honestly would expect that if the Horizon and Cardassians meet one-another, they are more likely to fight than get along.

 

[CeBrudras]

While the Harmony and Cardassia would a reason to cooperate in their shared dislike of the Federation, I am not convinced that things will actually work out like that. Coordination over long distances is a bitch and they have few reason to actually trust each other. Expecting more than one of them declaring war on us while our ships are already busy chewing up the other is probably a bit paranoid.

 

[charysa]

The only thing i really want right now in the GBZ is a territorial connection to the ISC, preferably one that can't be intercepted by Yrillian pirates or the Horizonites.

Click to shrink...

There's plenty of blank space outside the GBZ for a territorial connection between Federation space and the ISC though. Wouldn't filling that space in be safer than duking it out in the GBZ? I mean, in the context of throwing the Cardassians some bones, that is.

The fact that the ISC is in the way will act like a useful buffer, and the ISC is likely to have the same opinion as us; let's not let the Cardassians and the Horizon meet eachother.

Click to shrink...

I dunno, the ISC might have their own opinion about things, like not wanting to be a buffer state between other major powers.

If the Cardassians and the Horizon find eachother, it will be bad, so I think we need to break the Cardassians as a military and intelligence threat.

Click to shrink...

Are we sure that the Cardassians and the Harmony of Horizon would make common cause against us if they meet? I mean, from the Cardassian POV, what's the difference between the HH and the UFP? And the way HH uses their diplomacy for evil just means the Cardassians would be actually right to be paranoid about their citizenry being seduced against them.

 

[CeBrudras]

I think a getting a border with the Dylaarians for diplomatic stuff would be a nice long term goal for the GBZ.

I dunno, the ISC might have their own opinion about things, like not wanting to be a buffer state between other major powers.

Click to shrink...

They dont really have options to prevent that state of affairs though.

And the way HH uses their diplomacy for evil just means the Cardassians would be actually right to be paranoid about their citizenry being seduced against them.

Click to shrink...

Wait, we arent supposed to seduce the Cardassian citizenry against them?

 

[HearthBorn]

Personally i think that with the Sydraxians broken out of the Ashalla pact we could afford to try and warm relations with the Cardassians a little. We could throw them a few bones, like accepting their corner of the GBZ as theirs (because we don't want the headache of occupying their colonies anyways) and negotiating an open supply corridor to the Dawiar even after we integrate their neighbors.

<snip>

The only thing i really want right now in the GBZ is a territorial connection to the ISC, preferably one that can't be intercepted by Yrillian pirates or the Horizonites.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough; I definitely wouldn't mind de-escalating, except for what we know out of game that's occuring with Bajor. However...

But i think the impetus for that has to come from the Federation Council, not Starfleet. We are not the ones setting foreign policy agenda, the government does.

Click to shrink...

This point I disagree with, as we control significant policy already. Many diplomatic pushes were instigated by us. In particular, our diplo push of Bajor triggered the early Cardassian invasion (which I suspect would have happened if they naturally climbed to 100 without the push). We, the player base, has a strong Expansionist agenda, which does not reflect the currently elected government's Dev/Peace majority, and our plans and goals usually reflect this. The difference between what should be, and what is in game, is significant.

 

[fasquardon]

The idea that the Cardassians completely control the timing of a hard escalation has, in my opinion, been thoroughly disproven by our experiences so far. The Cardassians have proven sensitive to diplomatic pressure, are vulnerable to and indeed tend towards rhetoric over action, and their preparedness for open warfare has been proven to be less than ours. In every crisis, from the Kadar-Tor to Celos to Dar Nakar, Federation action, both "soft" and "hard", have prompted Cardassian reaction rather than the other way around. We chose to wage war on the Syndicate, we forced them to open diplomatic relations during Ghosts and Whispers, and we deliberately destroyFJWPIO09325utru0[4u8329jOIW89*RJHOL@~WR(3jf\;lekjf3978fhqw78*73ped the Sydraxian fleet which led to the fall of their government. Even in the case of Bajor, Cardassian action was taken in response to our attempt to wield soft power. It's clear to me that our diplomatic actions and attempts to wield influence are seen a provocation and something the Cardassians must respond to; the very action changes the Cardassian calculus even if the military facts don't change.

The idea that only the Cardassians can turn a conflict into a war and that they will only do so when ready is nonsense. The Cardassians don't exist in a vacuum, and they must continue to respond to our actions aggressively as they have to keep signalling that will retaliate. If they stop, we just keep taking from them without pause. We can absolutely cause a war with application of soft power, and it doesn't matter one whit if the ultimate decision lies with the Cardassians when their reaction is reasonably predictable from our action.

This latest envoy should be taken as a warning, both IC and OOC, that we've pushed things as far as they can go.

Click to shrink...

Excellent points.

If I were a Cardassian, I would be rather unnerved by the unrelenting pressure the Federation have been applying.

That said, we were reacting to the small aggressions the Cardassians had been applying to the Federation and its members. They've kinda dug their own hole.

As for those asking questions about what our long-term goal is with the Cardassians - I think we want to aim for something similar to our relations with the Klingons - we want them to respect us, fear getting into a real war with us, be willing to work with us, and feel that the Federation isn't determined to destroy them just for lulz.

This point I disagree with, as we control significant policy already. Many diplomatic pushes were instigated by us. In particular, our diplo push of Bajor triggered the early Cardassian invasion (which I suspect would have happened if they naturally climbed to 100 without the push). We, the player base, has a strong Expansionist agenda, which does not reflect the currently elected government's Dev/Peace majority, and our plans and goals usually reflect this. The difference between what should be, and what is in game, is significant.

Click to shrink...

I agree that the players have to show some leadership in relations with the Cardassians - first, because Starfleet, as the pointy tip of the Federation, is first responder to many events and thus has significant power to shape relations, second because it mean our poor QM isn't left to lead the players with his NPCs and thus stuck with even more work.

fasquardon

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

Excellent points.
cuz
If I were a Cardassian, I would be rather unnerved by the unrelenting pressure the Federation have been applying.

That said, we were reacting to the small aggressions the Cardassians had been applying to the Federation and its members. They've kinda dug their own hole.

As for those asking questions about what our long-term goal is with the Cardassians - I think we want to aim for something similar to our relations with the Klingons - we want them to respect us, fear getting into a real war with us, be willing to work with us, and feel that the Federation isn't determined to destroy them just for lulz.

fasquardon

Click to shrink...

I think the question we should be asking is under what circumstances would the long term goals of Cardassian Central Command co-exist with the long term goals of the Federation. I feel we need to figure out what they want, in the longest term, before we can understand what peaceful co-existence would look like.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I think the question we should be asking is under what circumstances would the long term goals of Cardassian High Command co-exist with the long term goals of the Federation. I feel we need to figure out what they want, in the longest term, before we can understand what peaceful co-existence would look like.

Click to shrink...

Given that from our earliest xeno-psych reports onwards we've been told Cardassians seek dominance in interpersonal relations, and that that extends into how they deal with other polities, there's a very good chance the only answer of what they actually want regarding the Federation is for us to be at their mercy. Peaceful coexistence is thus only likely to come about if they accept that they can't get what they want.

 

[HearthBorn]

I think the question we should be asking is under what circumstances would the long term goals of Cardassian High Command co-exist with the long term goals of the Federation. I feel we need to figure out what they want, in the longest term, before we can understand what peaceful co-existence would look like.

Click to shrink...

Given that from our earliest xeno-psych reports onwards we've been told Cardassians seek dominance in interpersonal relations, and that that extends into how they deal with other polities, there's a very good chance the only answer of what they actually want regarding the Federation is for us to be at their mercy. Peaceful coexistence is thus only likely to come about if they accept that they can't get what they want.

Click to shrink...

I seem to recall from one of the early entries on Cardassians (and maybe I'm remembering DS9 instead), is their insatiable need for resources, after coming from a home planet extremely short of these. Perhaps opening trade with them, give them a better than average deal for the exchanged resources, and make arrangements to recognize their claims in the GBZ, would make them feel better (perhaps as an unofficial 'sorry we poached your client' deal). I know food isn't something we officially trade, just BR & SR, but that could be another option.

 

[AlphaDelta]

I seem to recall from one of the early entries on Cardassians (and maybe I'm remembering DS9 instead), is their insatiable need for resources, after coming from a home planet extremely short of these. Perhaps opening trade with them, give them a better than average deal for the exchanged resources, and make arrangements to recognize their claims in the GBZ, would make them feel better (perhaps as an unofficial 'sorry we poached your client' deal). I know food isn't something we officially trade, just BR & SR, but that could be another option.

Click to shrink...

We do not negotiate with Terrorists Fascists.

Anything we send will be used against us.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

Given that from our earliest xeno-psych reports onwards we've been told Cardassians seek dominance in interpersonal relations, and that that extends into how they deal with other polities, there's a very good chance the only answer of what they actually want regarding the Federation is for us to be at their mercy. Peaceful coexistence is thus only likely to come about if they accept that they can't get what they want.

Click to shrink...

Well, my question presupposed that it would be easier and more desirable to not have to change their goals if an stable end state that included them could be achieved. If we instead need to change what Central Command (or a successor Cardassian government) wants, then we're talking some serious conflict in the future, not mere self defense but actually modifying and influencing their government like we did to the Licori.

I don't particularly agree that the long term interests of Central Command are necessarily antithetical to us though. What we probably want are things they can suggest as victories to themselves that we honestly don't care about.

 

[fasquardon]

(perhaps as a 'sorry we indirectly poached your client' deal)

Click to shrink...

It seems to me this has a high a chance of being misread.

Even with human rivals that sort of thing tends to be seen as a form of submission and with the more dominance-obsessed Cardassians that could set us back a ways.

fasquardon

 

[HearthBorn]

We do not negotiate with Terrorists Fascists.

Anything we send will be used against us.

Click to shrink...

It seems to me this has a high a chance of being misread.

Even with human rivals that sort of thing tends to be seen as a form of submission and with the more dominance-obsessed Cardassians that could set us back a ways.

fasquardon

Click to shrink...

Then what would you suggest, either of you, for short and long term solutions? War every few years for the next several decades? Bomb them back to the stone ages? What should our plans be?

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Well, my question presupposed that it would be easier and more desirable to not have to change their goals if an stable end state that included them could be achieved. If we instead need to change what High Command (or a successor Cardassian government) wants, then we're talking some serious conflict in the future, not mere self defense but actually modifying and influencing their government like we did to the Licori.

I don't particularly agree that the long term interests of High Command are necessarily antithetical to us though. What we probably want are things they can suggest as victories to themselves that we honestly don't care about.

Click to shrink...

That would be nice, but the xenopsyche reports indicated that whether or not we or they "won"would heavily influence future relations - we can't give them the first "victory" or it'll make things harder for us. I wouldn't oppose it further down the line though.

 

[065tdsa]

Then what would you suggest, either of you, for short and long term solutions? War every few years for the next several decades? Bomb them back to the stone ages? What should our plans be?

Click to shrink...

Beat them, and then let their government either be replaced with sane people, or let them divide into several separate polities that can be dealt with individually.

 

[HearthBorn]

Beat them, and then let their government either be replaced with sane people, or let them divide into several separate polities that can be dealt with individually.

Click to shrink...

So, a war where it ends with us able to dictate terms, such as having Ambassadors in orbit around their major planets, and their fleet in ruins? Or just to the point where they are beaten back to their borders, and find a faction to back in the following peace talks?

 

[Deathbybunnies]

So, a war where it ends with us able to dictate terms, such as having Ambassadors in orbit around their major planets, and their fleet in ruins? Or just to the point where they are beaten back to their borders, and find a faction to back in the following peace talks?

Click to shrink...

Literally just beat them once to establish "dominance", and then hopefully have more open diplomacy because that's what our experts told us would happen.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

I think attempting conquest as our preferred solution to the Cardassian problem will cause far more issues than it solves.

Literally just beat them once to establish "dominance", and then hopefully have more open diplomacy because that's what our experts told us would happen.

Click to shrink...

That's not what our experts said. Our experts said that once an initial period of vying for dominance passes, they'll be willing to talk. That's what genuinely happened, we repeatedly beat them until they became willing to establish diplomatic contact.