I don't think it was ever confirmed Kahurangi was running for Mars, although I think there were some good arguments as to why she should -- most notably she oversaw the founding of UP.

Of course who knows if voters in the post-scarcity future care about that sort of thing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hm... would Mars possibly be the largest alien demographic percentage-wise among the major worlds of UE? I mean, all the industry Starfleet plunked down, bringing all sorts of races along with our expansion.

Of course, on the other hand, the upcoming Mars election could be Rogers vs Kahurangi.
Kinda depends how small other member planets are. If there's 500,000,000 electors for the Mars seat and they have 50,000,000 aliens (as a random number) versus a member planet with 10,000 electors and 4,000 aliens (Solitude's size IIRC) technically our hypothetical 10,000 planet would have a larger percentage-wise.
 
Kinda depends how small other member planets are. If there's 500,000,000 electors for the Mars seat and they have 50,000,000 aliens (as a random number) versus a member planet with 10,000 electors and 4,000 aliens (Solitude's size IIRC) technically our hypothetical 10,000 planet would have a larger percentage-wise.
Solitude had a population of 500k during the biophage crisis.
 
So there's two ways to read the absence of Stesek and Langford, entirely depending on a minor procedural thing we don't know about -- either N'Gir snubbed them to send a message to upcoming and current New Members, OR Ex and Pacifists willingly sent New Member councilors as they learn and adapt to Development's tactics.
While I would love it if this was a play by the Expansionists/Pacifists, there's also the further oddity of two Development councilors and no Hawk ones. Especially given one of the incoming councilors is a Hawk.

I mean, if you're sending five councilors (instead of two as in previous accessions), why not one from each party? Is this some kind of political message that's being sent to Alukk?
 
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It helps.

But - and this isn't your fault, just the nature of the beast - these fleet distribution plans are getting so large and hard to grok and it's just going to get worse as our fleet gets larger and our production keeps expanding, that I may just bow out of voting for these things period.

Unless somehow any good variations in the base plan are put into task votes ala Nix's research plans, which is much easier said than done.

Would it be worthwhile petitioning to consolidate home zones? Greater chance of events in larger zones?
 
Unless somehow any good variations in the base plan are put into task votes ala Nix's research plans, which is much easier said than done.

I'll see what I can do. The main issue is that things change over the course of a year. New ships come out of production or refit and old ships go away. Nor is it really clear which deployments are the "important" ones. Unlike research where it has cascading effects years down the line, if you don't like where a ship is one year we can always move it the next.

Maybe Task Votes [Gabriel] to determine how much people want to send to the Gabriel border zone?
 
I'll see what I can do. The main issue is that things change over the course of a year. New ships come out of production or refit and old ships go away. Nor is it really clear which deployments are the "important" ones. Unlike research where it has cascading effects years down the line, if you don't like where a ship is one year we can always move it the next.

Maybe Task Votes [Gabriel] to determine how much people want to send to the Gabriel border zone?

Will the ships in the GBZ support any home sectors?
 
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I think the best we can do in terms of fleet plan distributions is ask how much people are willing to commit to special deployments like the GBZ then work out a distribution from there. Research is far more fixed with teams sticking in their assigned tech until they finish and not as interdependent on each other as ship distribution. I think what will help is if after the current set of ratifications we sit down and redraw the sectors.
 
I'll see what I can do. The main issue is that things change over the course of a year. New ships come out of production or refit and old ships go away. Nor is it really clear which deployments are the "important" ones. Unlike research where it has cascading effects years down the line, if you don't like where a ship is one year we can always move it the next.

Maybe Task Votes [Gabriel] to determine how much people want to send to the Gabriel border zone?

Yeah it's why I didn't have any suggestions. The fact deployments change over the year (versus single "deployment" in research), are tied with the detailed shipbuilding plans (versus more vague ship design plans in research), that ships can be redistributed nearly anywhere (versus skill constraints in research), that the quantity of ships make them more fungible (versus smaller number of idle research teams) - that all contributes exploding the complexity space of the plans. Such that making variations in the plan trend either insignificant enough or large (and onerous) enough to be its own plan. In any case, none of this really addresses that problem of high-level plan understandability.

Making task votes for overall goals would be helpful, but I think those would have to be done before the final fleet distribution vote itself to give you time to develop the plan.

...

An idea along the same vein as how research time assignments and FYMs work: perhaps @OneirosTheWriter can start enforcing a fixed-length tour of duty for each ship (except under SoE circumstances or if required to meet revised garrison requirements)?

If each ship was forced to stay in its current assignment for, say, 2 years, that would vastly reduce the number of ships the number of ships to be assigned each year. It wouldn't eliminate the pattern of quarterly fleet distributions, although it would likely lessen them just from the fewer ship assignments being made. The target goal being a plan that all fits in a single page.

This would force some more suboptimality in our fleet distributions, which is strictly speaking a nerf, but that very inefficiency could force more interesting trade-offs.

In the much longer-term, say a decade or so from now, when even this would not be enough to prevent multi-page plans, perhaps we could have two stage voting, where we vote first for which theaters to assign ships, then vote for the sector assignments within each theater in subsequent quarters. Or something like that.
 
I dislike minimum years in assignment, it constrains us if we run into situations like needing a fleet to deal with the Septs or sending ships into refit. As it is sectors are stabilizing in regards of what ships are being posted where. Eventually I think we are looking at a Constellation-A plus 1 to 2 other ships depending on sector event generation for the home sectors with the other ships being posted into our border zones. That will make things easier once we hit that point. In 2 years we will have the last Constellation in for a refit, combined with new construction we will be assigning one each to the home sectors and once assigned I expect them to stay in those sectors.

Basically we are at a major expansion period but I think we are getting to a point were we are going to find fewer and fewer ships being reassigned to new sectors. Also with only the Renaissance in line for a future refit and even that being a while off we are not going to have to deal with the shuffling that came from sending ships in for refit.
 
I dislike minimum years in assignment, it constrains us if we run into situations like needing a fleet to deal with the Septs or sending ships into refit. As it is sectors are stabilizing in regards of what ships are being posted where. Eventually I think we are looking at a Constellation-A plus 1 to 2 other ships depending on sector event generation for the home sectors with the other ships being posted into our border zones. That will make things easier once we hit that point. In 2 years we will have the last Constellation in for a refit, combined with new construction we will be assigning one each to the home sectors and once assigned I expect them to stay in those sectors.

Basically we are at a major expansion period but I think we are getting to a point were we are going to find fewer and fewer ships being reassigned to new sectors. Also with only the Renaissance in line for a future refit and even that being a while off we are not going to have to deal with the shuffling that came from sending ships in for refit.

Well, yeah enforced tours of duty are constraining - reducing the option space and encouraging trade-offs in the face of increased suboptimality is the whole point. It's essentially the same thing as what we've done for research teams.

I strongly disagree that we are "stabilizing" in fleet deployments. It's not just refits you need to consider. We're still expanding and creating sectors (Orion, future Seyek, future Honiani, future new border zones), will still have periodic garrison requirement revisions (one guaranteed with further Forward Defense tech), Oneiros will continue tossing us distractions like the long-lasting GBZ or short-term Caldonian/Ataami "sectors", and eventually a crisis/war that inevitably shakes things up again. And all throughout that, there's always going to be the temptation to optimize around garrison requirements and perceived event rates and types by exchanging Centaurs/Constellations of green/blooded status and Constitutions/Renaissance and filling margins with Mirandas between sectors.
 
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It sounds terribly silly and a shit ton of work, but our best bet for making ship deployment accessible might be a GUI of some sort. Like, a simplified sector map with all that information you provide in the big list. X/req defense, Y major worlds, arrows for mutual support, assignable ships, etc
 
Well that would be nice - anyone care to make it? The non-map parts should be feasible in a spreadsheet, and you can have the map opened in another window anyway.
 
I honestly don't know if N'Gir is going to crash and burn at all; from outside perspective people probably think she's killing it.
Yeah, see this is kind of the point I was making earlier. N'Gir's policies aren't the problem, we have no compelling reason to assume she's doing a bad job as president. We mostly despise her because she's coming across as abrasive and abusive when our player avatar(s) meet with her in private.

I honestly want to see Federation press headlines ripping a strip off her for being the one acting like she's the one that made all the accessions happen, but comes from a party that worked really hard at slowing down Orion entry.
Go for it!

I could try, but I'm not in the right mental space right now, plus parts of Ship of Aeons are kicking my ass.

If we want to shoot Dev in the foot, we need to figure out which species will elect non-Dev Councilors and grit our teeth and just pay the 180pp to get them selected first. The Pacifists and Expansionist were only 3 votes short of a bulk accession, and both the Pacifists and Dev got 1 from the Orions. If the Caldonian both have a few major worlds and are likely to go strong Pacifist, getting them in first may be enough to break the Dev stranglehold.
Bear in mind that anything we do along those lines will be extremely temporary. Just getting one member species admitted ahead of another won't change how the Federation looks when the smoke clears a few years from now. What matters is the overall political distribution among all five parties among all the members we are soon going to have (that is to say, all twelve species now seated on the Council plus the Caldonians, Seyek, Qloathi, and Risans who are coming soon). If that balance of power doesn't favor Development, they're in trouble a few years from now regardless of what they do or don't do in the present. If it does, then even if we temporarily inconvenience them, in the long run it won't matter.

And honestly... I don't think we should spend 180pp to shoot the Developmentalists in the foot, regardless of whether the effects of the shot are permanent or temporary.

N'Gir just rubs me the wrong way. Everything she does manages to annoy me one way or the other so I do kinda hope she's just a big shithead in universe and the original four get tired of her and no confidence her ass. /rant over
I kind of hope the same- or more accurately, that she loses support not only among the original four but among other figures within the Federation, like Orion and Indorian councilors and so on.

That or she starts being polite but insistently disagrees with us. Stesk gets props in part because he's civilized about thinking we're very very wrong.

It's like seeing a Texan cowgirl named America Jones being elected President... of France.
Leslie:

"It's like Jim Kirk said to me at a wedding reception back in the '80s, when he was very, very drunk. Us Earthlings aren't the smartest species in the galaxy, or the strongest, or the most determined, or the prettiest, or the most cultured, or whatever. And yet. And yet, we keep turning up like a goddamn bad penny, because we may not have any of the other things going for us, but when you get right down to it... Earthlings are the weirdest species in the galaxy. If you want something weird to happen, something you genuinely did not expect, something that breaks the pattern so hard you don't know up from purple anymore? An Earthling was probably involved somewhere."

[grins]
 
Is there a list of Starbases by name/number? I have to make a few presumptions with the information I can find.
High Comb Station = Starbase 11?
Shrantet I = Starbase 13?
Indoria Station = Starbase 14?
Alukk Station = Starbase 15?
 
Is there a list of Starbases by name/number? I have to make a few presumptions with the information I can find.
High Comb Station = Starbase 11?
Shrantet I = Starbase 13?
Indoria Station = Starbase 14?
Alukk Station = Starbase 15?


   
Earth Spacedock SB-1
Vulcan Station SB-2
Andoria Station SB-3
Tellarite Station SB-4
Amarkia Station SB-5
Beta Indi Station SB-6
Ferasa Station SB-7
Vega Station SB-8
Lapycorias Station SB-9
Rigel Station SB-10
High Comb Station SB-11
Betazed Station SB-12
Is what I have from the last iteration of my ship deployment sheet. I'm not entirely sure what 13, 14, and 15 are.
 
Leslie:

"It's like Jim Kirk said to me at a wedding reception back in the '80s, when he was very, very drunk. Us Earthlings aren't the smartest species in the galaxy, or the strongest, or the most determined, or the prettiest, or the most cultured, or whatever. And yet. And yet, we keep turning up like a goddamn bad penny, because we may not have any of the other things going for us, but when you get right down to it... Earthlings are the weirdest species in the galaxy. If you want something weird to happen, something you genuinely did not expect, something that breaks the pattern so hard you don't know up from purple anymore? An Earthling was probably involved somewhere."

I really want to see Leslie meet Rob Kinichi at some point, as he was created to be the avatar of "hold my beer and watch crazy human applies science"

Edit. his original omake was litterally inspired by the meme going around that humans were the hold my beer race of starfleet.
 
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It sounds terribly silly and a shit ton of work
Also... I don't know if it's actually "silly" from a realism perspective, but from a pure min-maxing perspective, I do agree that constraints like fixed length deployments actually complicate things. If you're satisfied with something that's like 90% optimal, then it is simpler, and the resulting vote is always going to be smaller.

I'm not strongly in favor of the idea, but I bring it up because this exact same thing happened with research plans. Oneiros wanted to avoid "much larger, messier votes than is necessary" but Nix pointed out that locked-in research teams actually complicates things...but with the caveat of only if you're trying to do what Oneiros calls "hyper-optimization", which is why I suspect Oneiros was fine with the idea in the end (although I don't remember if the locked-in research team is QM-enforced or self-enforced right now).

Relevant:
It's more the hyper-optimising of plans by not letting teams finish their research node so a finisher can come in that is a concern. It leads to much larger, messier votes than is necessary.
I don't think it's fair to call reacting to the hyper-punishment of cutting off almost the entirety of a teams research output appropriately hyper-optimising.
If we can get to a situation where a small number of discrete changes are required each research turn I think it can all become a lot more accessible to people.
You generally can't reduce complexity by introducing additional rules, without effectively removing older rules. In particular the proposed change will make the next vote completely inaccessible. That is, I think I could maybe come up with a reasonable (but no where near optimal) research plan that takes locking properly into account. But research would have to be planned out 2 tiers ahead, to avoid risking either a team being locked into a low priority project while a higher priority project is opened up, or being idle while waiting for the higher priority project to become available. I estimate that I would take about 5-10 times as long as I did for my previous plan, so 10-20 hours instead of 2. Maybe Briefvoice could write a spread-sheet and also come up with a plan. But I think I would not be able to understand Briefvoice's plan, nor they mine, without putting a few additional hours into it. No one else would be able to understand either (unless they also did their own plan first).

A semi-hypothetical example: Say I already did the work to identify all priorities in the next two tiers and ordered them (I haven't actually done that yet, just picked a few top priorities). One currently open computing project (A) opens up two of the highest priorities in the next tier (B and C). Obviously I put Daystorm on A, and will put it on B afterwards, but if I also want to research C I need to prepare for Starfleet Science Academy to be available then. For that I need to estimate how long A will take (not easy with how inspiration works, I will get a probability distribution instead of a single date), and then estimate how long each of the possible projects for Starfleet Science Academy would take (across two research categories). I will also need to take into account how important these projects are, and how I weight project C being started late, compared to SFSA being idle for a year or two. And that's with just 2 teams. Since everything is related with everything else the difficulty is exponential in the number of teams + projects, so coming up with an optimal plan is already completely impossible, but even just considering the priorities in the next tier a little bit already makes everything extremely complicated.

And while later turns would be easier than the next one half a dozen teams (usually) being available still makes it more complicated than now, because you still have to look at when all the other projects that are being worked on are finished and still have to weight risk of being idle vs locked in too long.
Currently picking is still relatively easy, you just have to go down the list of currently open priorities, in order, and can completely ignore everything lower in priority when assigning any particular team. If you also have to take into account locking that means you always have to take into account how long the team will be locked in, and that means you have to always look at multiple projects, not just the next highest priority, when assigning a team. Or we have to ignore the entire future tech tree and that teams might be used for their other categories in the future and vote more or less like we did in the old system. That would waste most of the work you did in plotting out the research tree.

At the very least being locked in should not apply to generic teams, because that will usually make assigning the second specialization impossible (few projects will be possible to finish with a generic team in less than 10 years), and it would more or less locked out generic teams being used for anything that actually matters, lest we risk blocking a capable team out of researching that.

Also, 5pp is a really extreme penalty, basically equivalent to forbidding it completely. 1pp, 5rp or the team sitting out a turn would all be more reasonable (if you want it to happen very rarely), or 1rp if you want to make it something to be avoided, but not necessarily to organize your plans around avoiding it.


I have literally been trying to do this for a while. Bloody sheet's hard to keep up to date, though >__>

Well your spreadsheet is a start, but it provides no way present a changing fleet distribution over time, typically a year, ala Briefvoice's plans. A historical quarter-by-quarter view would also be a nice-to-have.
 
Maybe it's time to switch to assigning ships to theatres...? But then I can't reconcile that with the event system, I don't want to roll responses across that many ships...

Worse comes to worse, you can always just NPC it :p

I mean, somehow ensure there are less than 10 "theaters/sectors" or whatever high level partitioning that voters assign ships, and let theater and sector admirals (and their attributes/personalities) handle the sector deployment details. It's a loss of some control for the players and requires some work on your end, but it would simplify things as long as you're not aiming for hyper-optimality.

I think you'll have to do something like this eventually when we have like double the number of ships and sectors.
 
Worse comes to worse, you can always just NPC it :p

I mean, somehow ensure there are less than 10 "theaters/sectors" or whatever high level partitioning that voters assign ships, and let theater and sector admirals (and their attributes/personalities) handle the sector deployment details. It's a loss of some control for the players and requires some work on your end, but it would simplify things as long as you're not aiming for hyper-optimality.

I think you'll have to do something like this eventually when we have like double the number of ships and sectors.
I'll deputise it :V @aeqnai, want a rank? :V
 
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