To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Chimeraguard · Jun 14, 2017

Briefvoice said:
It's the Sea Peoples! The nomads from the steppes! Etc. My question is, is it worthwhile to try a diplomatic push on them or will it not help?

At the very least, it'll be helpful for preventing them from going into the Cardassian camp.

OneirosTheWriter · Jun 14, 2017

2316.Q1

Continuing Diplomatic Push

Yrillians 320/100 + 10 = 330/100

[X][REN] Endorse the tech transfer
[X][GAENI] 100sr for 150br
[X][LOG] Start 2 Starfleet Cargo Ships at Irrizizza for 8pp
[X][CATS] 1 Fathership, 4 Swarmers
[X][BEE] Exchange resources with the Orion
[X][EC] Pick an Explorer Corps ship to carry this out (USS Odyssey)
[X][CAL] Ignore
[X][PRIORITY] Change nothing [Weighted 1.5x]
[X][ENTER] Send the survivors to existing ships

================
[X][BETA] Oreasa Starfleet Yards
[X][CREW1] Crew with Explorer Corps
[X][CREW2] Crew with Standard Crew
[X][NAME1] Tarrak
[X][NAME2] Pleezirra
[X][AMBY] Heavy Ambassador
[X][BUILD] 2316 2 Ambassadors, Resume 1 Miranda-A, 1 Excelsior refit, 2 Miranda-A refits, 2 Constellation Refits

SF Berth A (3mt) – Move UP Berth B Excelsior build here in 2316.Q2 (ETC 2317.Q1)
SF Berth 1 (1mt) – Resume interrupted build for Miranda-A NCC-1665 in 2316.Q1. Note: 1 quarter year of build done, resource cost already paid. (ETC 2317.Q4)
SF Berth 2 (1mt) – Leave empty.
40 Eridani Berth A (3mt) – Sojourner repair/refit continues. (ETC 2316.Q3)
40 Eridani Berth B (3mt) – Endurance repair/refit continues. (ETC 2316.Q3)
40 Eridani Berth 1 (1mt) – Begin refit of Svai in 2316.Q1 (ETC 2317.Q1)
40 Eridani Berth 2 (1mt) - Begin refit of Lion in 2316.Q1 (ETC 2317.Q1)
Betazoid Shipyard Berth 1 (1mt) – Berth available as of 2316.Q2. In 2316.Q3, begin refit of Sappho to Constellation-A (ETC 2317.Q3)
Betazoid Shipyard Berth 2 (1mt) – Berth available as of 2316.Q2. In 2316.Q3, begin refit of Challorn to Constellation-A (ETC 2317.Q3)
Ana Font Berth A (2.5mt) - Occupied with Excelsior build (ETC 2317.Q1)
Ana Font Berth 1 (1mt) - Occupied with Renaissance build (ETC 2317.Q2)
LOCF Berth A (2.5mt) – Commence refit of Sarek in 2316.Q1. (ETC 2317.Q1)
LOCF Berth 1 (1mt) – Occupied with Renaissance build (ETC 2318.Q2)
UP Berth A (3mt) – Occupied with Excelsior-A double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2318.Q2)
UP Berth B (3mt) – In 2316.Q2 move Excelsior build to SF Berth A. In 2316.Q2 begin Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth C (3mt) – Occupied with Excelsior-A double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2318.Q2)
UP Berth D (3mt) – Berth available as of 2316.Q2. In 2316.Q2 begin Ambassador prototype as dual build using Chen's bonus. (ETC 2321.Q4)
UP Berth 1 (1mt) – When Renaissance completes in 2316.Q3, leave empty.
UP Berth 2 (1mt) - When Renaissance completes in 2316.Q3, leave empty.
UP Berth 3 (1mt) - When Renaissance completes in 2316.Q3, leave empty.
UP Berth 4 (1mt) – Berth available as of 2316.Q2. Leave empty.

One Miranda-A class ship (Starfleet Build Order NCC-1665) to resume at San Francisco Fleet Yards Berth 1 in 2316.Q1
Refit to Miranda-A class of USS Svai (Starfleet Build Order NCC-1658) to commence at 40 Eridani A Fleet Yards Berth 1 in 2316.Q1
Refit to Miranda-A class of USS Lion (Starfleet Build Order NCC-1654) to commence at 40 Eridani A Fleet Yards Berth 2 in 2316.Q1

Refit to Excelsior-A class of USS Sarek (Starfleet Build Order NCC-2004) to commence at Lor'Vela Orbital Construction Facility Berth A in 2316.Q1

Two Ambassador-class ships (Starfleet Build Order NX-3901, NX-3902) to commence at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards Berths B, D, in 2316.Q3

Unnamed Excelsior (Starfleet Build Order NCC-2023) to be christened USS Tarrak.
Unnamed Excelsior (Starfleet Build Order NCC-2024) to be christened USS Pleezirra.

Member World Coordination Office - Member and Affiliate Shipbuilding Update

Commenced:
Andor - Refit [Thalisar the Last], Refit [Constellation-A], Starfleet Cargo Ship (NCC-3706)
Vulcan - Refit [Miranda-A], Refit [Constellation-A], Starfleet Cargo Ship (NCC-3705)
Tellar - 1 Constellation-A (NCC-1825), 2 Engineering Ships
Humans - 2 Miranda-A (NCC-1923, NCC-1924)
Amarki - 1 New Heavy Frigate (NCC-3801), 1 New Light Frigate (NCC-3802)
Betazed - 2 Refit [Patroller-A]
Caitian - 1 Mod Swarmer (NCC-2820)
Rigel - 1 Cutter (NCC-3010), 1 Starfleet Freighter (NCC-3602)
Apiata - 3 Stingers (NCC-3224, 3225, 3226) 2 Starfleet Cargo Ship (NCC-3707, 3708)
Risa - 1 Heavy Corvette
Gaeni - 1 Tech-Frigate, 1 Civilian Freighter, 1 Engineering Ship
Caldonia - 1 Patroller-A
Indoria - 1 Renaissance (NCC-2618), 1 Cargo Ship
Seyek - Repair [Cruiser], 1 New Corvette
Orions - 2 Patrol Escorts
Qloath - 1 Quital Leb Quitan (Lt Frigate)
Honiani - 1 Chapel, 1 Yan-Ros Freighter, New Shipyard - Soulforged Yards @ Vail [1x2500kt, 2x1000kt]
Ked Paddah - 1 Orah, 1 Civilian Freighter
Licori - Civilian construction only

Leila Hann · Jun 14, 2017

Night said:
The Hurq.

...oh, that's a terrible idea. If the Klingons get wind of them...

Unlikely. The hurq went spinward after the Klingons overthrew them, toward the Gamma Quadrant. That's how te sword of K'less ended up there.

These guys seem to be coincidentally similar to the hurq.

pheonix89 said:
As in, the beacon triggered a defense system when ignored?

Ok, but what was the beacon/defense system trying to keep people away from?

This looks to be one of those times where you need a bunch of passive sensor arrays because there's a potential threat you need to know about and you don't want to poke it.

Presumably it was guarding something of importance to its creators. A colony or a space station or the like. That thing may or may not still be around, at least as some interesting ancient ruins.

Night · Jun 14, 2017

Leila Hann said:
These guys seem to be coincidentally similar to the hurq.

That might be enough. I'm not sure what the Klingon word for "crusade" is, and I'm not sure we want to find out.

Void Stalker · Jun 14, 2017

Man going to be a bunch of updates for new construction. 3 new stingers and the 2 new Amarkia escorts amongst others

Oh and 4 Starfleet cargo ships and a freighter at member yards

Night · Jun 14, 2017

Time for a blast from the past.

Night said:
To be honest I think the NX prefix and our current prototyping system are entirely the product of someone getting sick of constant "is it the South Carolina or the Michigan class" arguments based on which ship laid down or was completed first. Now it will be completely obvious what the class is called and nobody will ever argue that again.

Rather than the reality that you often lay down anywhere from two to a dozen units of the class at the same time and they could all be considered "the prototype".

OneirosTheWriter said:
Two Ambassador-class ships (Starfleet Build Order NX-3901, NX-3902) to commence at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards Berths B, D, in 2316.Q3

TAKE THAT, CLASS DESIGNATION SYSTEM NERD PERSON! WE'LL WRECK YOUR SYSTEM YET!

Nix · Jun 14, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
Honiani - 1 Chapel, 1 Yan-Ros Freighter, New Shipyard - Soulforged Yards @ Vail [1x2500kt, 2x1000kt]

Constructing a shipyard in orbit of the home world of another species? That's remarkably close cooperation. Seems like they would be well on the way to forming a federation of their own if they weren't both headed towards UFP membership. They are definitely going to want to be in the same sector, too.

Nervos Belli · Jun 14, 2017

Looks like the Yan Ros are finally getting a shipyard. About time.

UbeOne · Jun 14, 2017

Soulforged? That's appropriate.

Briefvoice · Jun 14, 2017

Nix said:
Constructing a shipyard in orbit of the home world of another species? That's remarkably close cooperation. Seems like they would be well on the way to forming a federation of their own if they weren't both headed towards UFP membership. They are definitely going to want to be in the same sector, too.

I wonder how the Yan-Ros feel about the darker side of the Honiani that we occasionally get reminded about.

aeqnai · Jun 14, 2017

Night said:
Time for a blast from the past.

TAKE THAT, CLASS DESIGNATION SYSTEM NERD PERSON! WE'LL WRECK YOUR SYSTEM YET!

Of course you realize that as soon as they launch, NX-3902 is going to become NCC-1701-C

Leila Hann · Jun 14, 2017

Briefvoice said:
I wonder how the Yan-Ros feel about the darker side of the Honiani that we occasionally get reminded about.

Being a loyal vassal state might actually be their best bet for dealing with that.

Night · Jun 14, 2017

aeqnai said:
Of course you realize that as soon as they launch, NX-3902 is going to become NCC-1701-C

But as they laid down and completed at nearly identical times, they will forever be argued over as "is this the Ambassador or the Enterprise class", thus defeating the NX-series' attempt to stop this.

Briefvoice · Jun 14, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
2316.Q1

Continuing Diplomatic Push

Yrillians 320/100 + 10 = 330/100

I hope all the pp we invested in these Yrillian pushes bears some fruit. Surely we've turned opinion at least a little more pro-Federation?

Member World Coordination Office - Member and Affiliate Shipbuilding Update

Commenced:
Andor - Refit [Thalisar the Last], Refit [Constellation-A], Starfleet Cargo Ship (NCC-3706)

So Andor finished the Thalisar and immediately put it-

A: Thalisar the Last.

Excuse me?

A: You have to say the full name. It's Thalisar the Last.

(sigh) So the Andorians put their Excelsior into immediate refit after completing it, making it effectively a five year build.

Vulcan - Refit [Miranda-A], Refit [Constellation-A], Starfleet Cargo Ship (NCC-3705)
Tellar - 1 Constellation-A (NCC-1825), 2 Engineering Ships

And Tellar decided to build a new Constellation-A. Getting in the game!

Amarki - 1 New Heavy Frigate (NCC-3801), 1 New Light Frigate (NCC-3802)

I've seen those designs... pretty soon we're going to be back to Amarki Council members asking why Starfleet doesn't just build the obviously superior Amarki designs. Miranda-A, your day is drawing to a close.

Rigel - 1 Cutter (NCC-3010), 1 Starfleet Freighter (NCC-3602)
Apiata - 3 Stingers (NCC-3224, 3225, 3226) 2 Starfleet Cargo Ship (NCC-3707, 3708)

It continues to be my personal canon that this used to be the way it was always done. Starfleet ships were built in member world berths, spending political will as needed to get access. Kirk's original Enterprise was probably build at Luna Orbital, or perhaps at a San Francisco Shipyards that was under United Earth control.

This business of 'dedicated Starfleet shipyards' seems routine enough to us today, but the Council argued over it for months and it was hugely controversial.

Night · Jun 14, 2017

Briefvoice said:
I wonder how the Yan-Ros feel about the darker side of the Honiani that we occasionally get reminded about.

"Could be fun." would actually seem likely for the Hunter teams we've seen. Whether they're representative...

NHO · Jun 14, 2017

So, unrelated, found a fun design out there. For obviously not!Star Trek ships

Not linking to author, he does NSFW art, use saucenao.

But generally, interesting thing to encounter and behold convergent design evolution to saucer and nacelle. We know that single-nacelle ships are possible, so random minor species encounter? This thing feels Connie-analogue if not smaller.

We can see that nacelle is somewhat oversized and so are impulse engines, so high-speed craft with two paired photon cannons and two torpedo launchers and hangar? For rapid patrol and interception.

KlavoHunter · Jun 14, 2017

Space Gypsies?!?!?

NHO said:
So, unrelated, found a fun design out there. For obviously not!Star Trek ships

But generally, interesting thing to encounter and behold convergent design evolution to saucer and nacelle. We know that single-nacelle ships are possible, so random minor species encounter? This thing feels Connie-analogue if not smaller.

I dunno, it seems directly Star Trekky to me. (Is that the same artist who draws Mirrorverse ships and women?)

I don't know if I could agree with it being a Connie analogue due to the single engine. If that warp engine is damaged, you're screwed and have to send a distress signal instead of flying yourself home on the second engine.
It's rather like how blue-water navy carrier planes like the Hornet have 2 engines for redundancy: Space, like the sea, is an unforgiving place...

Jrin · Jun 14, 2017

On the second thought sending the Hishmeri Septs fleet through Lecarrens and Cardassian space would be a great way of trashing the stalemate and messing up and reducing their navel deployment in exchange for our resource bribes and intel against the Cardassian who would take resources at the point of the gun.

Of course if the council being all peace minded, we can tone it down by sending them skirting Lecarrens and Cardassian ramming right into the Cardassian's GBZ bases for more loot and sadly the Dylaarians. Hence Starfeet wins.
If there's raids into Lecarrens and Cardassian on the way, well that's unfortunate since they gotten eat sometimes.
With all our best wishes for their long journey to the core since I don't see them being Cardassian clients.

Honesty I'm hoping they go through Lecarrens and Cardassian space since we can clean up the mess after all the damage Hishmeri Septs did with our big attack following on their heels to finally shatter their power and influence and of course humanitarian aid, this way we don't have to worry about them being all ready to wage a large scale war against us.

Talk about killing two birds with a stone since Hishmeri Septs get their resources, fight against a weaker power than two peer powers in a row on the way and we get end the future war that could severely damage our infrastructure to killing our favourite captains and named characters with big effect.

Redhead222 · Jun 14, 2017

2316.Q1

Continuing Diplomatic Push

Yrillians 320/100 + 10 = 330/100

From front page?

Yrillians 345/100 - Affiliate Membership Internally + Externally Obstructed, but lines of dialogue opened. Strong pro-Cardassian influences

could the true yrillians please stand up because i think they should be at 355 not 330 not that it is a major deal but it is a thing?

NHO · Jun 14, 2017

Sending space nomads into the hostile territory? That's not how starfleet does it's thing. I would have put an Excelsior for the escort and traded with them for cultural knowledge and maybe technology. If they want to nomad? Gladly. If they want off the ships? Why not? If some of our citizens want to join? Yes. No repeating Stargazer, mind you.
And most likely add escort from member fleets, too. So no raiding.2

KlavoHunter said:
I don't know if I could agree with it being a Connie analogue due to the single engine. If that warp engine is damaged, you're screwed and have to send a distress signal instead of flying yourself home on the second engine.
It's rather like how blue-water navy carrier planes like the Hornet have 2 engines for redundancy: Space, like the sea, is an unforgiving place...

I thought again and called it Connie-size. But most likely somewhat smaller. Miranda, probably. Based on the size of airlocks, five, six decks in saucer. Including the bulge on the top, but excluding deflector dish.
And if their entire spaceship quirk is single nacelle, with two-nacelled ships being not often used designs, as a mirror for our two nacelle standard and one - exception.

Jrin · Jun 14, 2017

NHO said:
Sending space nomads into the hostile territory? That's not how starfleet does it's thing. I would have put an Excelsior for the escort and traded with them for cultural knowledge and maybe technology. If they want to nomad? Gladly. If they want off the ships? Why not? If some of our citizens want to join? Yes. No repeating Stargazer, mind you.
And most likely add escort from member fleets, too. So no raiding.2

Well we can't really let them through our territory even with escorts since they can easily wander off and nick stuff.
Sure trade and tech, even refugees is fine though our citizens joining bit is crazy.

Anyway space nomads are use to fighting since they have being in space for a thousand year, I think they can handle fighting through hostile territory considering how well armed they are as noted by the torpedo happy T'Rinta in her logs.
We just giving them a helping hand in resources along with intel and maps of Cardassian space

Its better than going near our space or the Fed's peer powers and i'm wary of letting them through the former infection zone.

Simon_Jester · Jun 14, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Well that month did not go so well.

So Rigel sector and Amarkia sector had a lack of responders

Amarkia sector's responder responded just fine, it's just that USS Vigour failed a Spot check. Probably a Science check. Maybe a Centaur-A or a modern cruiser would have passed the check, but it's likely that if we really wanted success in that sector we should have sent an Excelsior. Or an Oberth, maybe.

Briefvoice said:
So remember when the complaint about Lone Ranger doctrine was that it didn't allow for any ships to assist when an Excelsior responds? Now it's actually starting to feel like a boon. Keeps too many ships from bunching up on one event so they're free for other events later in the month.

That's only helping us if we actually have an explorer present in the sector, though. A lot of our sector fleets no longer have explorer flagships, or never did.

Night said:
Perhaps, but even focusing on the "regular" Apiata, the majority of it will fall on their differences. If you were to describe a Queenship bridge, purely visually, it would be an utterly baffling experience, because at least half the conversations carried out and orders being given are pheromonal rather than verbal. To an outsider it would be impenetrable.

Pheromonal orders are necessarily imprecise and take time to provoke the desired response, because it takes time for a smell to propagate through the air. Furthermore, they're useless for communicating from the bridge to Main Engineering, or for saying whether the ship should turn left or right, or which enemy ship to target.

The fact that the Apiata use spoken language at all strongly suggests that, bee-people or no, they do rely heavily on spoken language, especially in situations like space travel where precise, clear communication that conveys the maximum information in the minimum time is valued.

UbeOne said:
The lack of responders is troublesome.

We actually had two separate problems in Q1M2. The first problem was a Constellation straight-up failing a check, which probably indicates a failed Science roll. Refitting the Constellations will help a lot with that. The trouble is, most rolls that a stock Constellation (Science 2) fails, would also be failed by a stock Centaur-A, Rennie, or Connie-Bee (Science 3). The long term solution to this problem is the Keplers, but realistically it will be at least ten years before we can get a large fleet of Keplers deployed across much or all of Federation space.

The second problem was the lack of ships in Rigel sector. They just straight-up had no means to respond to what happened there. Notably, Rigel is a border sector, which means it gets event rolls that involve our relations with species outside Federation space. We should be garrisoning it like it was a border zone, not trying to do the absolute minimum necessary. But we can't maintain a massive Gabriel Expanse fleet against an anticipated Cardassian attack (still unclear why we anticipate attack there this year), AND have plenty of ships to cover RIgel Sector and so on.

At the moment there are two ships there, Renaissance and Selaya, and apparently BOTH of them triggered events in Q1M1, followed by yet a third event triggering in Q1M2. That's enough to just plain overwhelm us in most sectors; we don't actually have that many sectors with a three-ship fleet.

Now, doing a count... all of Starfleet, not counting the Explorer Corps, is... nine explorers, nine modern cruisers, seven Constellations, four science vessels, and twenty-three frigates. That's fifty-two ships, not counting ships in repairs or refits. We also have eight normal sectors and six border zones, counting the Gabriel Expanse as a border zone.

AT BEST that gives us three or four ships per sector, but the very moment we start even trying to maintain a large fleet anywhere we end up at the "two or three per" level that makes it possible for stuff like this to happen. The only reason we didn't have this happening constantly in the early quest was because it was so gosh-darn rare for events to cluster at a rate of two or three to a sector in a single quarter.

[For the record, we have fifteen ships in the Gabriel Border Zone fleet, mostly modern cruisers and Miranda-As. If we completely disbanded this fleet it would juuust about give us the numbers to put one more ship in every other sector we control, with a couple left over to watch the fireworks in the Gabriel Expanse.]

Leila Hann said:
Wonder if the Hishmeri Septs plundered the Ittik-Ka on their way through.

I kind of hope so...

Jrin said:
Too much trouble, how about we direct them straight through Klingon and Romulan space and see how much chaos they cause for both sides since both side is damaged by the war.

Note: they'll hit the Klingons first, which will heavily distract said Klingons. At the moment the Klingons seem to have a slight upper hand (based on last year's intelligence reports). This may be a good thing or a bad thing. Hard to say.

Briefvoice said:
The Cheron comes through again... but how do we make that final step of being able to talk with the Sydraxians openly? Notice we're still having to sneak around to do it.

I think the Sydraxians themselves would have to openly take that step by denouncing their ties to the Ashalla Pact. That said, if @AKuz 's post is to be taken at face value, the Greens are actually a pro-Romulan faction of the existing Hierarchy government, not a bunch of revolutionaries. So basically, this faction is willing to work either with us or with the Romulans... which come to think of it is not so bad. Worst case, I'd rather have a Romulan client on that flank than a Cardassian one, because I think we're less likely to wind up fighting the Romulans.

It's the Sea Peoples! The nomads from the steppes! Etc. My question is, is it worthwhile to try a diplomatic push on them or will it not help?

I strongly suspect it will help. Especially since unless we radically reposition our fleet, we're not in good shape to stop them. Diplomacy (buying them off, encouraging them to keep their ships to specific systems, getting them to go somewhere else) is the easiest way to keep some semblance of control over the situation.

Night said:
The Hurq.

...oh, that's a terrible idea. If the Klingons get wind of them...

It is conceivable that these space nomads are associated with the Hurq. On the other hand, they may not be. As far as we can tell, only the Klingons really know that much about the Hurq.

aeqnai said:
Of course you realize that as soon as they launch, NX-3902 is going to become NCC-1701-C

Leila Hann said:
Being a loyal vassal state might actually be their best bet for dealing with that.

Also, making big turboenhanced battle monks cry in arm wrestling matches would help.

Night said:
But as they laid down and completed at nearly identical times, they will forever be argued over as "is this the Ambassador or the Enterprise class", thus defeating the NX-series' attempt to stop this.

Future Enterprise:

[Eyes glowing dangerously]

"Ambassador. We're Ambassador-class. Stop dissing my new sister."

Briefvoice said:
It continues to be my personal canon that this used to be the way it was always done. Starfleet ships were built in member world berths, spending political will as needed to get access. Kirk's original Enterprise was probably build at Luna Orbital, or perhaps at a San Francisco Shipyards that was under United Earth control.

This business of 'dedicated Starfleet shipyards' seems routine enough to us today, but the Council argued over it for months and it was hugely controversial.

In my notes for "the 2235 game," I go with the idea that the shipyard facilities used by Starfleet are effectively leased from the respective member worlds, so Starfleet exercises long-term control and operations, but has to make sure the leases don't expire and avoid violating any terms of service.

This strikes me as a much more efficient arrangement than having to constantly find one-off opportunities to build ships on a catch-as-catch-can basis, while being consistent with a reasonable degree of member world sovereignty.

Jrin said:
Its better than going near our space or the Fed's peer powers and i'm wary of letting them through the former infection zone.

Yeah. ALL we need is for an independent mining ship to run into a Biophage problem, send out a distress call, and then have a bunch of aggressive space-raider nomads show up and not believe their warnings.

Katsuragi · Jun 14, 2017

It's very un treky to direct the large raiding and pillaging group through a swath of sentient beings territory.

It's not biophage, but it's walking towards that ballpark.

pheonix89 · Jun 14, 2017

Looks like we may want a bulk order of Constie-A's as garrison Cruisers. Yeah, I know, I was shit-talking this before. I thought some more about it and they're only very very narrowly inferior to Rennies as responders. They're cheaper and they use up less C.

pheonix89 · Jun 14, 2017

Katsuragi said:
It's very un treky to direct the large raiding and pillaging group through a swath of sentient beings territory.

It's not biophage, but it's walking towards that ballpark.

Not sending them through inhabited territory isn't actually an option.

Their flight path takes them through the Cardassian-UFP border. We don't know where the far edge of Cardassian territory is who else is out there.

And we're Commander, Starfleet. Unless we can prevent any raiding period we are duty-bound to at least keep it from happening to our own people. And even then it's really questionable whether we ought to pass up a completely deniable proxy strike on a hostile major power.

Reminder, we're at war with Cardassia. Limited war, but war.

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