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- Australia
Colony ship is its own beast, but the Engineering Ship is Ranger-based.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
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- somewhere
Sigh, I don't understand how you managed to so thoroughly miss my point, I even mentioned how the requirement would come before the actual design stage.
Here is how the process SHOULD look:
- Brainstorm what sort of new ship classes/roles might be neat to have.
- Look at whether they are currently feasible, and what sort of upcoming techs they might benefit from.
- Look at when a suitable teams for the designs might be free.
- Officially set the requirements for a role we are confident of being able to start a design project on within at the very latest 5 years (delaying this stage to keep some flexibility being very much desirable).
- Request the start of design project.
- Research design.
- Build prototype.
- Launch prototype.
- Start serial production.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
So the key problem for me is that we have an upcoming ship design that is expected to be able to fulfill our most pressing needs: the fast, high science, high presence, decent durability prospective ship class denoted the Kepler.
Roles that it would practically fulfill (if not to the strict role text, then in intent):
Science Frigate
Garrison Frigate
Minesweeper Frigate
Courier Frigate
The only iffy part of the Kepler that could prevent its intended use for all these roles is its possible SR cost. And whether a ship class can officially fill multiple roles, and what the game mechanics implications of that.
Roles that it would practically fulfill (if not to the strict role text, then in intent):
Science Frigate
Garrison Frigate
Minesweeper Frigate
Courier Frigate
The only iffy part of the Kepler that could prevent its intended use for all these roles is its possible SR cost. And whether a ship class can officially fill multiple roles, and what the game mechanics implications of that.
- Location
- Germany
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Yes, but this vote is initiated by the QM and is therefore more likely to generate feedback than you posting somewhere 'let's have a look a the roles Starfleet must be able to cover and see if we have to change something'.
- Location
- Germany
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Multipurpose fighters exist in real life, so, there must be reasons to not only built hyper-specialized types (maintenance, mass production and whatever).
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
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Honestly, I'm not really sure we're going to have a Centaur-equivalent in the future. Realistically, the only ships that can be good generalists are Capitals. Cruisers can kinda-sorta generalize, but not that well (the Renaissance is slightly over its weight limit by the sheet last I checked, it's that good). Generalist escorts are mediocre or expensive.
What do you think a specialized minesweeper should look like? A Kepler will have S7.
- Location
- Australia
It is very important to consider that cost factor. It should be considered how many Keplars your budget/crew-intake allows per-turn, how long it would take to fill all sectors. How much does it cost to fill those other roles vs a specialist craft? Things like that.
A more capable ship is not always the best option, and it should be considered in the context of:
Your Industry <-> Your Needs <-> Enemy Capabilities
I'm happy for a ship to cover multiple roles, though, and for a single ship to be designed to cover multiple roles.
Something else that's important to consider in Starfleet's context; culturally and doctrinally Starfleet greatly favours generalist and jack of all trade ships. On the one side, this is a bad thing; it means that Starfleet is always forced to deal with the fact that it's ships are large, expensive and slow to build for their task and class. On the other side, this is a good thing; Starfleet only needs to ask 'is this a task we toss an explorer, cruiser or escort class ship at' rather than which ship precisely, and if the task is complex and needs multiple stats we don't need to worry about fleet composition to cover all our bases, the ship that is present is already capable enough even outside any specialty it has. This flexibility is quite useful and is what allows the Lone Ranger doctrine Starfleet utilizes.
If we do go for a more specialised form of Starfleet we should look towards sticking to 1 'primary' frame and reorganise the frame and/or bolt on specialist sections for the specific sub-class of escort, cruiser or explorer is meant to be especially good at.
If we do go for a more specialised form of Starfleet we should look towards sticking to 1 'primary' frame and reorganise the frame and/or bolt on specialist sections for the specific sub-class of escort, cruiser or explorer is meant to be especially good at.
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- Location
- Germany
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Problem, especially for the 'decades to come' you mentioned: "Enemy Capabilities" == guessing game. Especially as there are unknown races out there.
Furthermore, with the evolving of the combat engine the relative values of stats change. Is a C7S1 better at fighting than a C4S4?
To plan for that, you either gamble and min-max stats, or try to get the best average stat distribution you can for the given weight class.
- Location
- Australia
There's a reason I put this vote directly after the intel reports land...
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
We can already detect the EM put out by ordinary black holes' accretion disks. That's how we know where they are.
The problem is that a ship 'almost as good as, but cheaper than' an Excelsior is basically a Renaissance. There isn't a lot of gap in capability between the two designs where it counts. The main area where Renaissances hurt is crew cost, not reosurce cost- and a light explorer won't have more favorable crew efficiency than a Rennie.
This part doesn't work in Star Trek; smaller ships aren't inherently faster. Remember, too, that insofar as small ships were faster in real life it was usually because they didn't bother having heavy armor and devoted all that extra tonnage to bigger engines.
We've already got that- the Constellation refit. That's about as good and cheap as a small garrison cruiser is going to get. The 'pacifist party' refit has 70/50 cost, 2/4/2 crew, and a statline of C3 S4 H2 L3 P3 D4. If we're not willing to build more of those, then no event response ship that's likely to be designable is actually going to get built.
And if you're willing to spend significantly more resources to get better event response than that for your 'garrison cruiser,' you can just use a Kepler in the role.
Yes, but we very much need to NOT do this step before:
1) Observing what our fleet actually needs and seeing how our existing ship classes perform in the intended role.
2) Asking the people responsible for designing the ships what is physically possible.
For instance, it's unwise of us to support a minesweeper design if the Kepler-class turns out to be a superb minesweeper. It's ill-advised to rush a combat frigate design if waiting until 2321 to start the project makes it significantly more practical to build the new frigate properly.
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
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- Germany
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Sure, but you didn't offer us the intel reports from 10 years into the future.
That's something that I missed 'projected capabilites based on observed tendencies (aka crystal globe watching)'. Because role defintion, research dedication and prototype planning takes years, then comes the time to build the prototype and then you'll have to hope that what you built still makes sense in the current environment.
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
We don't need to define new roles at present, because the leading designs for any new roles will take at least four to seven years of further research, so we should hold off at least three years to define any.
I'll reiterate @Nix's point that we should not vote for a role without already having seen the design that will fill that role. Five years to fill a need is well within our predictable research envelope; there are basically no techs within 5 years that will be a mystery.
Frankly, these considerations have to all come with the massive caveat of "can we build it within 5 years?". Without answering that question, the vote is actively harmful.
We don't need to define new roles at present, because the leading designs for any new roles will take at least four to seven years of further research, so we should hold off at least three years to define any.
I'll reiterate @Nix's point that we should not vote for a role without already having seen the design that will fill that role. Five years to fill a need is well within our predictable research envelope; there are basically no techs within 5 years that will be a mystery.
Frankly, these considerations have to all come with the massive caveat of "can we build it within 5 years?". Without answering that question, the vote is actively harmful.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Quite a lot - but as you said, that was due to massive ship shortages from fighting two wars at once. It should be less of a problem if we can go back to focusing on the GBZ (pls no Biophage).
The problem's been compounded by the massive expansion rate the Federation has undergone since the start of the quest. I can't decide if we'd be better off slowing down to increase the number of ships in each sector, or if continued expansion will mean our resource base will grow faster than the area we need our ships to cover.
On a vaguely related note, as we expand to cover more space, the quest will inevitably slow down as it takes longer to cover everything that happens within the same time period. I suspect that at some point Oneiros will have to change the granularity of his simulation of the background, since if it's already a big job to manage logistics, different polities etc. then that problem will only get worse as we grow.
Here's the question: do we have a role on that list we won't be filling up anyway?
Contellations(does the 'P' refit help with this?) and Connie-Bs can fill a Garrison Cruiser Role, with the Rennies going on to be our 'Line Cruiser'.
We're going to be working on a Science Ship Anyway.
The Miranda and Centaur are our Frigates, and we're going to be working on a refit/replacement for them after the Kepler anyway...though I will say adding Minesweeper ability would be nice.
And here's my favorite: The Excelsior-A WILL be our Pocket Explorer once the Ambassador comes online.
Contellations(does the 'P' refit help with this?) and Connie-Bs can fill a Garrison Cruiser Role, with the Rennies going on to be our 'Line Cruiser'.
We're going to be working on a Science Ship Anyway.
The Miranda and Centaur are our Frigates, and we're going to be working on a refit/replacement for them after the Kepler anyway...though I will say adding Minesweeper ability would be nice.
And here's my favorite: The Excelsior-A WILL be our Pocket Explorer once the Ambassador comes online.
- Location
- Australia
That's not true at all. You need to be in a position to request the start of a research project within five years, and then you have a bunch of time to get started on researching it. The time crunch is much less serious than that.
- Location
- Maybe?
Is there any way we can do a moonshot-style megaproject to explore the possibility of investing resources to speed up travel between two static points? Ie. wormholes, Borg-style transwarp corridors, etc. Or is that too far beyond us?
Some way to construct "warp lanes" probably becomes unavoidable beyond a certain sized polity. Also it would make true specialist ships more viable.
How energy efficient are transporters anyway? If we're considering modules again, how about a tech ship that keeps its modules in massive transporter buffers to assemble on demand?
Maybe Oneiros can introduce Sectors
Some way to construct "warp lanes" probably becomes unavoidable beyond a certain sized polity. Also it would make true specialist ships more viable.
How energy efficient are transporters anyway? If we're considering modules again, how about a tech ship that keeps its modules in massive transporter buffers to assemble on demand?
Maybe Oneiros can introduce Sectors
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- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
[x] new science ship
and we need to start building more of those i think
and we need to start building more of those i think
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- Location
- Patriarchova
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][ROLES] Engineering Ship