To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Deathbybunnies · Jun 3, 2017

MTB said:
That sounds like it requires research.

Actually, what would that fall under? We could ask for a specialist team to be put on it - maybe it'd be a branch of Sensors?

On an entirely unrelated note, I just looked at our prospective members:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Current Federation Full Members:
Humans
Vulcans
Andorians
Tellarites
Amarki
Betazoids
Caitians
Rigellians

Full Member Pending Ratification
Apiata
Indorians
[5 Year Moratorium on further Ratifications in effect from 2312.Q3 to 2317.Q3]

Current Federation Affiliates:
Caldonians 500/500 - Awaiting end of moratorium in 2318
Orions 493/500
Gaeni 466/500
Seyek 444/500
Risa 453/500
Qloathi 446/500
Kadeshi 293/500
Honiani 261/500
Yan-Ros 184/100
* Updated 2314.4.3

Currently Known Other Possible Members:
Yrillians 287/100 - Affiliate Membership Internally + Externally Obstructed, but lines of dialogue opened. Strong pro-Cardassian influences
Licori ???/100 - In Post-War Flux, liable to change wildly
Gretarians 75/100 - Known to be under the thumb of Sydraxians
Laio 86/100
Tauni 75/100
Obar 65/100
Ashidi 76/100
Sotaw 35/100
Ked Paddah 60/100
Ittick-ka 25/100

We're looking at maybe 7 or 8 new members as soon as the moratorium ends in 2318. I think we're going to see a political shitstorm brewing as it approaches - the moratorium was put in place to give the Federation a chance to "cool down" after rapid expansion and integration, but I think they've just put it off and let the problem build up instead of taking it piece-by-piece.

There's going to be a push for another big moratorium immediately afterwards, but I think the best way would be to limit new member ratifications to 2/year after this next big rush (and possibly during it), in order to avoid a build-up like this again. Hopefully each new member ratifying won't be as big of a deal in the future - joining a group of 15 has less of an effect than joining a group of 8 - but in the immediate aftermath the Council might need some persuading.

OneirosTheWriter · Jun 3, 2017

MTB said:
Oneiros, it seems the majority of the thread currently does not see the necessity to define a new role, whereas your way to argue looks like you do see one. If that perception is correct, perhaps most of us are not aware of information we should process in a certain context?

I don't have a personal opinion on it in either direction. I'm just trying to help build the mental framework that should surround this decision for the thread. If people examine the current context and are confident in the current roles, that is fine, and will probably be the case for most years. I just want to make sure that people have that framework to parse through since despite the fact it's almost a yes/no question, it's by far the most open-ended strategic question that I ask the quest.

MTB · Jun 3, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
Actually, what would that fall under? We could ask for a specialist team to be put on it - maybe it'd be a branch of Sensors?

Minesweeping sounds like a) detection and b) de-arming
a) is sensors, b) could be rapid-fire, relatively low-energy phasers (> point defense application for phasers?)
Possibly also a mechanism that strenghtens the shield at the point of impact, fields to strengthen structural integrity, ablative armor, reactive armor, ...

MTB · Jun 3, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
I just want to make sure that people have that framework to parse through since despite the fact it's almost a yes/no question, it's by far the most open-ended strategic question that I ask the quest.

It's, like in real life, also a hard one. And in real life, Atlantis is not going to pop up and confront us with an unknown technology/threat.

Gnarker · Jun 3, 2017

Not a design wizard, but a specialized scout/minesweeper/ewar ship might have S5, and H and L ~3 as secondary stats? Possibly D if that helps to dodge attacks. Is that possible on a Frigate significantly cheaper than the Kepler?

Mr Tebbs · Jun 3, 2017

nocarename said:
Does anyone want to make a pitch about wargaming?
I, kind of vaguely, wonder if the Indorians have anything worth taking a turn on the floor with.

I would like to see a Gaeni tech cruiser vs 2-3 Miranda-As

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jun 3, 2017

Keep in mind that any ship that leads the charge in the mines phase will have to fight in at least the skirmish phase, maybe even the vanguard phase. Therefore, I've been designing my proposals for the next generation of escort frigates to have decent science (which also gives evasion and counters other frigates) and high shields (mines don't penetrate).

I feel that with ~S4 next-gen combat frigates, a dedicated minesweeper is actually inefficient and costs us more.

Deathbybunnies · Jun 3, 2017

nocarename said:
Does anyone want to make a pitch about wargaming?
I, kind of vaguely, wonder if the Indorians have anything worth taking a turn on the floor with.

We should probably be going back to what will help us most in the GBZ. So what do we think the normal Cardassian fleet will look like? (We don't know anything about the Dylarians, which feels like an oversight to me, but means we can't really guess at theirs.)

Night_stalker · Jun 3, 2017

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

OneirosTheWriter · Jun 3, 2017

Vote closes in one hour.

nocarename · Jun 3, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
We should probably be going back to what will help us most in the GBZ. So what do we think the normal Cardassian fleet will look like? (We don't know anything about the Dylarians, which feels like an oversight to me, but means we can't really guess at theirs.)

The Dylarians are on the other side of Gabriel from us.
Who would you recommend holds the card marked 'Apparently Cardassian'? It's not like we can ask to borrow any of their ships for testing - we can't even use affiliate ships, just members.

Deathbybunnies · Jun 3, 2017

nocarename said:
The Dylarians are on the other side of Gabriel from us.
Who would you recommend holds the card marked 'Apparently Cardassian'? It's not like we can ask to borrow any of their ships for testing - we can't even use affiliate ships, just members.

I can't tell if you're serious or not. Obviously, we should look at Cardassian ships and estimate which of our ships are closest in stats. Then, we take those ships, sort them into what we think a normal Cardassian fleet would look like, and send our own fleet against it.

It won't be perfect, but it's the best we can do and they're definitely the enemy we're aiming for.

Gingganz · Jun 3, 2017

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

CeBrudras · Jun 3, 2017

One new shipe type that might be useful would be some super cheap frigate with C as its dumpstat geared towards event responses. If something like the Licori situation happens again they would be the ones staying at home doing all the easy events we would otherwise just miss and with all the techs that allow multiple ships to respond to stuff they could still be useful in peacetime.
I dont know whether such a design actually exists in the ship engine though...

Void Stalker · Jun 3, 2017

Redhead222 said:
[x] new science ship
and we need to start building more of those i think

This is if we want to update the requirements in an way, such as increasing the SR cost allowed. Our kepler design which is kicking around and should start research in a few years fits within the current requirement.

Chaos Blade said:
Guys, keep in mind that a specialized minesweeper will have something that the Kepler won't be... it will be cheaper and more expendable, should have less crew requirements, so it will be a ship we might want to risk closer to the frontline.
The Kepler might be able to do the job, but in fleet battles it will also need to run EWar among other things.
I am not convinced that waiting till we see how the Kepler performs is a good idea.
if we go with a specialized minesweeper, we might either get a standalone ship, a variant of an existing design or a retrofitted design (and we are about to have a few ships start being long in the tooth, ships we could re-purpose...)

Except that if you want a specialized ship you need to build that ship in enough numbers to have them available to do their job, at the same time we are using resources that cannot go to building other ships so we may find ourselves short of maybe cruisers or combat frigate. Overspecialization of roles is a problem as then we would not have enough ships of each role to provide the coverage we need, Kepler is also intended to be built in good numbers, ideally we want at least one per sector.

Erandil said:
Honestly, I think that a specialist design like that would have special modifers for its task that go beyond pure stats since that is only way a design like that ever makes any sense, at least according to how I understand teh mechanics.

Edit: Something like for example: "S stat is doubled for Mine checks" seems liek an easy way to deal with that and make ships like that viable.

Nothing like this exists, nor is anything like this in the research category. A new ship role like a mine sweeper would be an escort weight with a high science requirement and perhaps a cost restriction. As it is with the difference in science impacting evasion our combat frigates should be trending towards S 3 or 4 which lets them double as mine sweepers.

Gnarker said:
Not a design wizard, but a specialized scout/minesweeper/ewar ship might have S5, and H and L ~3 as secondary stats? Possibly D if that helps to dodge attacks. Is that possible on a Frigate significantly cheaper than the Kepler?

Going for only S5 as opposed to S7 would reduce costs, as would dropping P, on the other hand we are looking at S3 or 4 for our next combat frigate, is it worth it to put resources into a ship that focuses on one thing when we could instead build more combat frigates and Keplers with those resources?

Forgothrax · Jun 3, 2017

CeBrudras said:
One new shipe type that might be useful would be some super cheap frigate with C as its dumpstat geared towards event responses. If something like the Licori situation happens again they would be the ones staying at home doing all the easy events we would otherwise just miss and with all the techs that allow multiple ships to respond to stuff they could still be useful in peacetime.
I dont know whether such a design actually exists in the ship engine though...

Kepler is basically what we're doing for this.

nocarename · Jun 3, 2017

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X]WG A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - 2 modern Catian Swarmers vs 2 Indorian Large Escorts
I don't think we can pick a tech-ship fight until we actually ratify the Gaeni. So. No doubt such a struggle will be incredible when it happens.

Deathbybunnies said:
I can't tell if you're serious or not. Obviously, we should look at Cardassian ships and estimate which of our ships are closest in stats. Then, we take those ships, sort them into what we think a normal Cardassian fleet would look like, and send our own fleet against it.

It won't be perfect, but it's the best we can do and they're definitely the enemy we're aiming for.

I was kind of hoping you'd suggest actual ships. I mean, the outline of the idea is great, but specifics are even more wonderful.

CeBrudras · Jun 3, 2017

Forgothrax said:
Kepler is basically what we're doing for this.

I dont think Keplers can be described as cheap though. They are a cool design and should probably stay home at war, even if we already have people talking about using them as minesweepers, but what I am imagining is something as cheap and efficient as a Miranda-A just focusing on the noncombat stats instead.
The more peaceful member fleets would probably really enjoy such a design.

KnightDisciple · Jun 3, 2017

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

I don't have a strong idea on the wargames and it hasn't really been a focus of thread discussion these last few pages.

Simon_Jester · Jun 3, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
I can't tell if you're serious or not. Obviously, we should look at Cardassian ships and estimate which of our ships are closest in stats. Then, we take those ships, sort them into what we think a normal Cardassian fleet would look like, and send our own fleet against it.

It won't be perfect, but it's the best we can do and they're definitely the enemy we're aiming for.

The problem with this approach is that their fleet mix is utterly unlike ours. Their escorts (especially the combat escorts they're likely to put in a war zone) are beefier than ours, their cruisers are comparable to our modern cruisers (which we have relatively few of), and significantly smaller/weaker than our explorers.

As far as I can determine, the closest we could come to a realistic wargame would be to have a handful of ConnieBee and Renaissance impersonating a mix of Jalduns and Kaldars, while our Excelsiors just stay out of the fight entirely and our Mirandas and Centaurs are given orders to "look big" or something like that.

CeBrudras said:
One new shipe type that might be useful would be some super cheap frigate with C as its dumpstat geared towards event responses. If something like the Licori situation happens again they would be the ones staying at home doing all the easy events we would otherwise just miss and with all the techs that allow multiple ships to respond to stuff they could still be useful in peacetime.
I dont know whether such a design actually exists in the ship engine though...

This is basically what the Kepler is but the Kepler isn't cheap. A REALLY cheap frigate with stats like C2 S4 H1 L2 P4 D3 might be doable, but I suspect it would turn out not to be an efficient way to design a ship.

lbmaian · Jun 3, 2017

So uh, looks like very few people have voted on wargames:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Wargames

Pick a Scenario you would like to see occur:

[ ][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Nominate two ships)
[ ][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships, (Nominate ships)
[ ][WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)

The most relevant thing I can think of are some GBZ war games.

Preparing Federation ships to go up against Kaldars, Jalduns, and Combat Takaakis.

Our closest analogues to each (summing up C+H+L):
Kaldar: Hebrinda-A
Jaldun: Connie-B
Combat Takaaki: blooded Constellation or blooded Centaur-A (latter slightly better)

So my proposal, with the notion that the Apiata will be taking the brunt of Cardassian ~~resistance~~ contention, and an eye toward Apiata+Amarki cooperation:

[X][WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)
-[X] Goal: Improve coordination between Federation GBZ forces against Cardassians (some tactical bonus of some sort?)
-[X] "Union" side: Hebrinda [Hebrinda-A, Kaldar analog] + Republic [Connie-B, Jaldun analog] + Challorn [blooded Constellation, Combat Takaaki analog] + Yukikaze [blooded Centaur-A in neighboring Apinae sector, Combat Takaaki analog] - totals C18 H12 L16
-[X] "Confederation" side: Abhriec [Riala] + Telzziadriz [Little Queenship] + Gerzzi [Stinger] + Triada [Stinger] - totals C18 H9 L20
-[X] Cost: 1*2 explorer, 3*1 cruisers, 4/2 frigate (treating Challorn as a frigate since it's being used as one here) = 7pp

Not sure if it's worth the pp cost, but we do have a lot of pp now.

And my original somewhat noop ROLES vote:

[X][ROLES] Rename General Cruiser role to Light Cruiser role (to make room for a possible future Heavy Cruiser role)

UberJJK · Jun 3, 2017

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

Deathbybunnies · Jun 3, 2017

nocarename said:
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X]WG A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - 2 modern Catian Swarmers vs 2 Indorian Large Escorts
I don't think we can pick a tech-ship fight until we actually ratify the Gaeni. So. No doubt such a struggle will be incredible when it happens.

I was kind of hoping you'd suggest actual ships. I mean, the outline of the idea is great, but specifics are even more wonderful.

Sorry, I read your tone entirely incorrectly then - I thought you were being sarcastic. No tone in text and all that.

As for actual ships:

lbmaian said:
Preparing Federation ships to go up against Kaldars, Jalduns, and Combat Takaakis.

Our closest analogues to each (summing up C+H+L):
Kaldar: Hebrinda-A
Jaldun: Connie-B
Combat Takaaki: blooded Constellation or blooded Centaur-A (latter slightly better)

So my proposal, with the notion that the Apiata will be taking the brunt of Cardassian ~~resistance~~ contention, and an eye toward Apiata+Amarki cooperation:

[X][WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)
-[X] Goal: Improve coordination between Federation GBZ forces against Cardassians (some tactical bonus of some sort?)
-[X] "Union" side: Hebrinda [Hebrinda-A, Kaldar analog] + Republic [Connie-B, Jaldun analog] + Challorn [blooded Constellation, Combat Takaaki analog] + Yukikaze [blooded Centaur-A in neighboring Apinae sector, Combat Takaaki analog] - totals C18 H12 L16
-[X] "Confederation" side: Abhriec [Riala] + Telzziadriz [Little Queenship] + Gerzzi [Stinger] + Triada [Stinger] - totals C18 H9 L20
-[X] Cost: 1*2 explorer, 3*1 cruisers, 4/2 frigate (treating Challorn as a frigate since it's being used as one here) = 7pp

Not sure if it's worth the pp cost, but we do have a lot of pp now.

This makes sense to me.

[X][WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)
-[X] Goal: Improve coordination between Federation GBZ forces against Cardassians (some tactical bonus of some sort?)
-[X] "Union" side: Hebrinda [Hebrinda-A, Kaldar analog] + Republic [Connie-B, Jaldun analog] + Challorn [blooded Constellation, Combat Takaaki analog] + Yukikaze [blooded Centaur-A in neighboring Apinae sector, Combat Takaaki analog] - totals C18 H12 L16
-[X] "Confederation" side: Abhriec [Riala] + Telzziadriz [Little Queenship] + Gerzzi [Stinger] + Triada [Stinger] - totals C18 H9 L20
-[X] Cost: 1*2 explorer, 3*1 cruisers, 4/2 frigate (treating Challorn as a frigate since it's being used as one here) = 7pp

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

CeBrudras · Jun 3, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
This is basically what the Kepler is but the Kepler isn't cheap. A REALLY cheap frigate with stats like C2 S4 H1 L2 P4 D3 might be doable, but I suspect it would turn out not to be an efficient way to design a ship.

Yeah, that is pretty much the kind of design I was thinking of, though of course if there is no good implementation of it in the sheet it is not worth spending research on.

Gravitas Hunt · Jun 3, 2017

Just before the deadline:
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Cabal Core Commander

Slava Ukraini!

Cabal Core Commander

Not Going Gently

Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.

a thirsty squirrel

On one, not scared