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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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OneirosTheWriter said:
Peacetime - 100% of normal income, 100% of normal build time, no stockpile opening
Early - 125% of normal income, -1Qtr build time, open 25% of stockpile
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So something else I'm wondering.

Can Starfleet itself increase mobilization level? 125% of normal income probably isn't applicable here, since that income would have to come from member nations anyway (it's not like we can increase resource rate from our mining colonies), but that -1qtr build time is really appealing.

Probably not, since that's what heavy industry teams are for. A heavy industry team can effectively shave off 1 qtr of build time on 4 ships per year. Federation member fleets typically have around 2-4 ships under production at any one time, so a single internal heavy industry team can handle that, although that's likely abstracted behind the scenes for the flat 1 qtr build time reduction.

In other words, rather than Starfleet having a level of mobilization, we get the SOE mechanics of mobilizing industrial teams and assets to accomplish the same, just at a more detailed level. Higher "levels" of mobilization just means we've mobilized more and more teams.

Simon_Jester said:
They have less ships but operate much closer to the war zone, so they don't need so much transport support to keep themselves in operation. Furthermore, they'll have closer connections to the existing industry and infrastructure already present in and around Betazed, which is likely to offset the fact that they have fewer ships. However, it's still a relevant explanation.
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That may be the case, but I'm not as willing to test that out. In any case, with the poor Betazed war support, this isn't a good option.

There is likely to come a moment at which we want Kahurangi to continue doing something related to internal diplomacy, but at which we also want two external diplomatic teams in operation. I think it's worth having two such teams, honestly.

I'm sure Kahurangi would perform admirably as chief of a military liaison office to the Ked Paddah, yes- but if she's off doing that, then she isn't here to support the war effort from Paris. And she can't shuttle back and forth between the two locations quickly because they're on opposite sides of the war zone- and over fifty light years apart, to boot!

I'd be much more comfortable having a team that can be permanently assigned to the Ked Paddah, and which we're comfortable keeping there for the duration of the conflict. Among other things because as part of resolving this whole crisis, we should take the opportunity to build good relations with the Ked Paddah, who are probably feeling some ill-will towards us: "Gee, NOW you realize they're dangerous, after you've only known them for FOUR YEARS!"
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Hmm perhaps. I can see the use of another external diplomacy team, just not necessarily this month. And I'm not particularly invested in Kahurangi being in Paris for internal diplomacy, as we already have effectively two internal diplomacy teams already (Federation Emergency Committee, FDS Consular Team).

I haven't voted yet - still undecided on whether we should get more industrial assets (and whether weighing more toward engineering or toward heavy industry), get another diplomacy team, and how many doctrine teams to get this month. Having two doctrine teams working ASAP is pretty appealing too, which the "diplomats and starfleet engineers" plan doesn't make room for.

We basically have the following competing options:
- 1 engineering, 1 heavy industry, 1 doctrine, 1 diplomacy (either external or internal) - "Diplomats and Starfleet Engineers" plan (w/ external diplomats variant)
- 2 engineering, 1 heavy industry, 2 doctrine
- 1 engineering, 2 heavy industry, 2 doctrine - "Federation Industrial Might and Doctrine" plan
- 2 engineering, 2 heavy industry, 1 doctrine
 
@OneirosTheWriter, a minor edit on the front page:

OneirosTheWriter said:
2315.Q2 - 2 Excelsiors (6) [Avandar, Kumari], 6 Constitution-B (30) [Korolev, Defiant, Exeter, Saratoga, Republic, LOCF Build], 1 Constellation [Challorn], 4 Miranda-A (8) [T'Kumbra, Agile, Bantam, Clarion] = 59 C.
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2 Excelsiors are combat 12, the Challorn should be combat 4 (blooded), and the total should be 54 C, not 59 C for Q2, unless there are some unlisted bonuses I'm missing.
 
EDIT: Does Sufficient Velocity have a 'save draft' function? Because Worf and Dreams!Enterprise is now firmly stuck in my head. I know exactly how it would go.

lbmaian said:
Hmm perhaps. I can see the use of another external diplomacy team, just not necessarily this month. And I'm not particularly invested in Kahurangi being in Paris for internal diplomacy, as we already have effectively two internal diplomacy teams already (Federation Emergency Committee, FDS Consular Team).
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We may need the latter team off-planet (it doesn't make sense to send the FEC off Earth since that's presumably where it's headquartered). Furthermore, Kahurangi's unique strength is her political and career ties to senior leadership. The only things it makes sense to do with her are personal diplomacy off Earth, or discussion in the halls of power on Earth.

Sending her to the Ked Paddah wouldn't be a bad idea... if we weren't reasonably concerned that we might need to bring her back. As it is, if we send her to the Ked Paddah to carry out personal diplomacy, then in terms of narrative logic, she's stuck in Ked Paddah space for the duration of the war. Because it's either a fifty light year trip straight through the heart of Licori space, or a long, circuitous voyage around Licori space.

[This is actually an issue that we need to bear in mind for any diplomacy to the Ked Paddah, and for that matter the Licori themselves; the travel times are significant compared to the duration of a 'turn']

I haven't voted yet - still undecided on whether we should get more industrial assets (and whether weighing more toward engineering or toward heavy industry), get another diplomacy team, and how many doctrine teams to get this month. Having two doctrine teams working ASAP is pretty appealing too, which the "diplomats and starfleet engineers" plan doesn't make room for.
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Based off of Biophage-era experience, I suspect that we won't have occasion to use our combat doctrines every turn, or even most turns.

Starting two weeks earlier COULD make the difference between having a doctrine tech in time for a major battle or not having it, but it could also make no difference at all. I'm a bit reluctant to call up two teams of the same type while neglecting a different type for two fortnights in a row.
 
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I feel we have two types of doctrine to work on. The first is countering the Licori tech-ship doctrine for fights. The second is our patrols doctrine. Both are important, but given their specialties in their career Eriksson (ops) may be suited to the patrols ideas and Ablett (tac) to the fleet fight ideas. And I'd rather have improved patrols sooner than fleets, as we are more likely have superiority in force and can often choose to avoid battle, whereas we cannot choose to avoid detecting and intercepting. Because we hope to set the pace of fleet operations, I don't necessarily see a point to starting the fleet doctrine work immediately, at least not such that 4 weeks matters.
 
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lbmaian said:
Given how Kahurangi can act like an external diplomacy team for the options we care about, I'm questioning the need for another external diplomacy team.

FDS Ambassador Team is scheduled to finish the Gaeni integration push next month. Kahurangi is free this month, I think. If we're planning to vote for "Convey a request to Ked Peddah to begin planning for a coordinated war effort" as was proposed before for the FDS Ambassador Team, then Kahurangi may be able to do that just as well.

Meanwhile, I'm seeing a lot of heavy industry and engineering team use cases. Heavy industry for speeding up ship construction (as we already have a bank of components for 3 outposts and 1 starbase), engineering teams for building outposts and listening posts, and later the repair yard once the components are ready.
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Then you ought to vote for my plan, quoted below, which gets an engineering team and two heavy industrial teams.

Hmm, I wonder if we could negotiate with Gaen to upgrade their outpost into a starbase. They may not be a member yet so it wouldn't be a Starfleet starbase, but the Amarki and Rigel member ratifications have proven that starbases can be handled over to Starfleet control. Gaen is also one of those future Fed homeworlds where it's going to be a bitch in pp costs to build a starbase at, assuming it stays grouped in the same sector as Sol and/or Betazed upon member ratification.
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You know, I think we now understand why that's the case since @OneirosTheWriter posted the economics model. Starbases are resource pigs to maintain. A single Starbase takes 5 bulk cargo and 5 small cargo to maintain every year. An Excelsior takes only 2 small cargo to maintain. I get why the Federation Council requires a lot of political will to add such a big permanent resource drain on a sector already well supported by a Starbase.

Anyway vote for plan "Federation Industrial Might and Doctrine".

Briefvoice said:
[X] Federation Industrial Might and Doctrine
-[X] North America Productivity Commission - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Earth, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] Andorian Imperial Star Engineers - Engineering Team (10 Cost from Andor, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 2 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Lachlan Ablett - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)

Okay, new plan. In this one we wait another two weeks four weeks for our next External Diplomacy team. Rationale:
1. We can see that new non-generic teams are gradually becoming available. It may be considerably cheaper to wait another turn rather than force together a new Generic External Diplomacy team right now. I mean, didn't we just do what everyone was saying was the vital task that we desperately needed another External team for? Urgency has abated.
2. This way we can get an engineering team and an industry team to back it up!
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Well, my thoughts on deployment:
1. Detection, detection, detection. The more the Federation can see things incoming, the better it can respond.
2. Starbases and outposts. These are useful for #1, as well as acting as supply chains and as a defensive line to prevent damage to Federation assets. As a bonus, after the war concludes, outposts and stations and outposts and stations - I'm sure the Federation or its members can find some kind of use for the things.
3. Doctrine specialists, to help improve plans to deal with this messy situation.
4. Internal Diplomacy, to help deal with the unease and stresses of the current circumstances.

Good that the Federation has some grasp of what a post-war peace might be, and has perhaps made a couple of inroads on how to make that work. The key is definitely to make connections between "extreme" AI and "extreme" Mentats, and how either can cause disaster - and thus while the Federation should be cautious about approaching the former, the Licori should likewise be cautious about the latter. If the Federation, upon holding territory or making a House submit, doesn't outright ban mentats or force the Licori to use advanced computers, but only demands that the 'full' Mentat process not be used and existing 'full' Mentats be under 'house arrest' (and, hell, allow them to work on theory and monitored application; it's a little bizarre how something in the process makes a number go "wisdom 0" on the universe... perhaps it can be adjusted with medication?)... well, that would make 'losing' not look so bad to the rest of the Licori or to their Mentat advisors.
 
Briefvoice said:
So only seven people have voted so far.

What's up? Usually we get a lot more voters than that.
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Well, for one, Oneiros posted at 5 p.m. Greenwich Mean Time, and it is now roughly 1 a.m. Greenwich Mean Time. Since Oneiros is an Australian, usually that's the period when our questmaster is fast asleep, which is often a lull in quest activity in this thread.

If there's an active discussion going on it will generally go on without him, but I think a lot of people have just stopped bothering paying much attention to the thread during those hours because interesting things like Oneiros's posts nearly always happen outside that timeframe. Plus, it lines up with business hours for much of North America, when a lot of quest participants in the US are busy anyway.
 
Anyone else willing to vote for my plan? Anyone at all? Can I get a pity vote?

Simon_Jester said:
Well, for one, Oneiros posted at 5 p.m. Greenwich Mean Time, and it is now roughly 1 a.m. Greenwich Mean Time. Since Oneiros is an Australian, usually that's the period when our questmaster is fast asleep, which is often a lull in quest activity in this thread.
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All I'm saying is that there are usually a lot more votes than that 8 hours after a vote is posted.
 
Briefvoice said:
Anyone else willing to vote for my plan? Anyone at all? Can I get a pity vote?
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Sorry. :(

I think a lot of people, even those who voted for the 'industry-heavy' plans last turn, wanted that external diplomacy team pretty badly. There's a reason the "11th hour" plan nearly won the vote despite having been introduced many hours into a process that had previously been dominated by very similar 'dueling bandwagon' plans that emphasized industry and runabouts.

Briefvoice said:
All I'm saying is that there are usually a lot more votes than that 8 hours after a vote is posted.
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Yeah, and Oneiros usually posts them either in the morning in his own time (which is late evening in North America, when a lot of us night-owl Internet people are online) or the late afternoon (which is the morning in North America, and voters catch the post when they wake up and check their computers). I suspect these two things are correlated.

It's certainly not unheard of for him to post at noon in my timezone (which I gather is near midnight in his), but it's not that common as far as I can remember.

...

Another, rather grimmer, possibility which just occurred to me is that out of 'the usual suspects' who follow the quest especially avidly, a lot of them/us were turned off by how nasty the debates over emergency mobilization got in the last 24-48 hours and have been turned off voting on things related to the state of emergency... :(

Although hopefully I'm wrong about this- if the explanation in my previous post is right, we can expect to see a lot of people joining in to vote in the next 3-4 hours.
 
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Leila Hann said:
Agent Cooper,
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"Lunch was, uh, nothing galleons at Starbase 10, that's in Sector 112 over Rigel. It's incredible, I had, uh... a tuna fish sandwich on whole wheat, slice of cherry pie, and a cup of coffee, and I didn't have to pay a copper. Damn good food. Jesicca, if you ever get up this way - that 'cherry pie' is worth a stop."

Elad Tartresis: Captain, what kind of fantastic trees have you got growing around here? Big, majestic.
Captain Kuznetsova: Douglas firs.
Elad Tartresis: Douglas firs...
 
Briefvoice said:
You know, I think we now understand why that's the case since @OneirosTheWriter posted the economics model. Starbases are resource pigs to maintain. A single Starbase takes 5 bulk cargo and 5 small cargo to maintain every year. An Excelsior takes only 2 small cargo to maintain. I get why the Federation Council requires a lot of political will to add such a big permanent resource drain on a sector already well supported by a Starbase.
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Funny thing is that some were speculating how starbases could act like trade hubs and boost economic activity.

Indeed that may still be true - they'd just be economic hubs that are expensive to maintain.

Simon_Jester said:
Another, rather grimmer, possibility which just occurred to me is that out of 'the usual suspects' who follow the quest especially avidly, a lot of them/us were turned off by how nasty the debates over emergency mobilization got in the last 24-48 hours and have been turned off voting on things related to the state of emergency... :(

Although hopefully I'm wrong about this- if the explanation in my previous post is right, we can expect to see a lot of people joining in to vote in the next 3-4 hours.
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Well we're seeing an influx of voters now ;)

Honestly, part of it is just that I'm not getting a large sense of urgency on the particular timing of options. There's been a couple cases were diplomacy was urgent, namely last month when we first got Kahurangi. But otherwise, we have a vague wish list of sorts, a limited budget per month to strike out items on it, and the order doesn't seem to matter too much.

This is all pre-war preparation, and apart from the intel and exit strategy stuff we're getting from diplomacy, there hasn't been much concrete results from our votes so far. War support goes down (or up). We get more forces that haven't been used yet. We haven't (thankfully) encountered any mentat incidents that the runabouts we recruited would be helpful against. We're rushing the Betazed starbase as expected. Gaen diplomacy hasn't completed yet.

In the meantime, some are bitching at the "PAAP"ist Vulcans, or expounding on how deadly the mentats are. Others bitch at the competence of the FDS. A handful feel like we're getting ramrodded for plot reasons. About 50 or so pages of this. (...Did you know that 2314 started nearly 350 pages ago??)
 
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