Don't Starbases take six quarters to build? The one at Betazed won't be done until 2315 Q4.

2314 Snakepit Results post says:
Starbase 12 [Betazed] commenced, ETC 2315.Q2

Repairs and crew losses?

Yes. There are a limited number of 3mt berths and a whole lot more 1mt berths available for repair. And a Renaissance is nearly as good a combatant as an Excelsior.

how does kicking them out of the GBZ start a war? we stick to the ROE set by the Cardassians.

Actually, we have a Red Light on attacking the Dylaarians right now. They are part of the Cardassian Pact, but they have never attacked us and we don't want to be the ones to fire the first shot at them.

I'd make this the Ferasa sector and the Hood, both because the Ferasa sector is also "sort of a border zone" and to continue to keep the Renaissance away from curious eyes. Make them actually spend a report if they want to know any stats, and perhaps get inaccurate ones anyway due to out good counter intel.

I went with that logic last year, but defensively a Renaissance is just as tough as an Excelsior... maybe better, since its Evasion is higher. I'm starting to become dubious about the benefit of keeping such an effective fighting ship out of the fray just to keep our enemies guessing a little longer.
 
While i don't always think the plans i propose are good ones, i'm more spitballing to see what sticks.

1. The Dylaarians could be a problem for us. one answer. take e-corp + what ships we can borrow from Collie, Sgurri, and Beans Star. travel up, kick their teeth in like we did with the Sydraxians, and come back. It's a delaying tactic but it has potential. smash an enemies offensive capibility, they can't reinforce the cardassians and suprise us.
That plays interestingly with the "I want to kill the Lampreys" video I just watched...

I'm opposed to this suggestion. The Dylaarians seem relatively peaceful (if super-duper motivated by IP rights). So far we have interacted with the Dylaarians only twice. On both occasions they proved amenable to reason and 'enlightened self-interest.' They are a prime candidate for prying away from the Cardassians, because Cardassia can't give them anything we can't give them too, and we're more likely to respect their cultural values, even if said cultural values make SV forumgoers want to strangle the little geckobastards occasionally.

Furthermore, the Dylaarian expansion into the Gabriel Expanse is not a direct threat to the Federation. The biggest reason we're aggressively fighting the Ashalla Pact in the region is mostly just to prevent the Sydraxians and Cardassians from having an easy route to link up by. Dylaarian colonies in the coreward-spinward corner of the Expanse won't cause a problem with that. The Dylaarian colonies are even farther from the Sydraxian homeworld of Borandt III than the Cardassian border is, after all; any supply line that links Cardassia and the Hierarchy by way of Dylaarian space is going to be so long and roundabout that we've won a major victory just by forcing their ships to travel such a long route.

Moreover, it is likely to cause political dissension in the Council if Ainsworth goes after the Dylaarians. Because unlike the Cardassians and Sydraxians, the Dylaarians have no history of provoking or attacking us. Very few Council members are upset to see Sydraxian warships explode, after those same warships attacked United Earth holdings repeatedly a few years ago. Cardassian warships, likewise. Even the Pacifists will settle for grumbling quietly when we blow up their ships in aggressive operations. They won't feel that way about the Dylaarians, who have done nothing to us, who have never initiated violence against us, and who were willing to listen to reason during first contact even when they believed we had violated one of their most sacred laws.

Therefore, it would be a really bad idea to launch a violent pre-emptive strike against the Dylaarians. We'd be alienating a group we have good reason to hope we can one day persuade to abandon the Cardassian cause, a group that is not a threat and has not provoked us in any way, and it would cause us political problems later on.

2. Black ops: we hire the Yrillians to raids the Sydraxian. it ties them us and pushes them away from the cardassians.
One, the Federation government is strongly opposed to this sort of thing. Two, the Yrillians, especially the fierce and piratical Yrillians, tend to like the Sydraxians better than they like us. What's to stop Yrillian pirates from just pocketing the money and, you know, not attacking the Sydraxians? Or for that matter, just warning the Sydraxians we're coming and staging fake fights or something? The Hierarchy and the Yrillian pirates already collude to run a protection racket on the Gretarians; why wouldn't they collude to run a con on us?

3. very bad idea. war crimes and atrocities. We send Cardassians, Sydraxians, and Dyaarians a biophage care package each. even i'm against this one but hey why not.
Why even suggest things that are horrible if you don't personally approve of doing them?

Don't bring up ideas you know are bad. One of the core values that has carried this thread through roughly six months of OOC time and hundreds of votes is the value expressed by the "this is not an empire quest" tag. We're not trying to conquer the galaxy or do horrible hideous things to our enemies here. A lot of us are enjoying this entirely because we're playing a decent group of people. It's frustrating and extremely disruptive to have "weaponize the Biophage" come up every ten pages. The questmaster is already tired of it, so much so that he snapped and dropped a collective punishment on the entire quest because people wouldn't shut up about it.

Even if I think that was a little unfair, it really doesn't matter. The Biophage was horrible, ghastly beyond belief. It would make an incredibly dangerous weapon, one far more likely to backfire and wipe out all life in the galaxy than to do anything useful. In-story the Romulans already tried to weaponize it and failed, leading to the very outbreak that killed a world just last decade.

Please... just stop. It's not funny. It's not cute, it's not constructive.

Please... just... stop...

4. We draw out the Cardassian scouts with escorts into a trap. hide, pull them in, crush them with larger forces.
Okay this one isn't so bad. It's also the sort of low level tactical detail Ainsworth handles on her own, that is literally what we pay her for, so that we aren't doing a tactical micromanagement game with our ships in the Expanse.

5. another bad idea. we send the ball up and invade the Sydraxians and finish them off. move on the the Dawiar, then Lecarre.
Don't suggest things you know are bad ideas. It's hurting other people.

6. black ops. support the bajorans resistance movement. distract the Cardassians with other matters.
We literally just signed a treaty where promising not to do this was the cornerstone of the treaty. Did you read the stuff surrounding Celos?

these arn't all mutually exclusive, but some are better plans than others what do you guys think?
I think that willfully suggesting bad ideas that involve doing evil unto people and breaking treaties is a bad thing and I hope you stop.
 
Actually, we have a Red Light on attacking the Dylaarians right now. They are part of the Cardassian Pact, but they have never attacked us and we don't want to be the ones to fire the first shot at them.
Wouldn't we be allowed (not that we would necessarily want) to attack Legei, the Dylaarian entry point to the GBZ, within the GBZ (according to the map)?
 
where is that even from? I've seen it a few times and it sounds like it's a reference to something but I can't find what.
It's from an old RP on SB. I forgot the name, but basically SB was in control of a bunch of Uploads in control of a space ship sent to explore the only other planet in the galaxy that seems to have evolved life. When the ship arrives, they found out that a sentient species evolved and built a civilization; the Lampreys.
The video of the talking teddy bear things is a standardized thing that you can program to read any random script with a pair of synthesized voices. The actual dialogue from the video clip references something I don't know about...

Oh wait now I do. Still don't know what happened.



...Yeah. It kind of fizzled out at the early diplomancing stages because SB being SB couldn't agree and stick to a strategy, and the Lampreys being evolved ambush predators who instinctively go a bit further on the "I know that you know that I know that you know" game, basically sussed out SB's plan right at the start, decided it was a coverup for the even more elaborate coverup of what was obviously an alien designs going exactly as planned (while the aliens, us that is, were basically in blind panic and attempting to advance our interests without any real coherent plan beyond Von Neumann Swarm).
SB started blaming each other, the GM lost interest or was interrupted by real life and that was basically it.

Once of the good interesting/horrifying things to come out of it is the bioweapon Neococcus ecoclasticus aka Little Boy and believe me, it is one of the more disturbing brainchilds I've seen SB/SV come up with.
I'm not entirely certain which one I would prefer to be infected with: Biophage, or Little Boy.
 
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I went with that logic last year, but defensively a Renaissance is just as tough as an Excelsior... maybe better, since its Evasion is higher. I'm starting to become dubious about the benefit of keeping such an effective fighting ship out of the fray just to keep our enemies guessing a little longer.
It's just one ship, and the difference to a Connie-B isn't very likely to make a significant difference in any particular battle. 4 of them at the same time, when the enemy commander has little knowledge about them and perhaps doesn't properly consider them when deciding to engage, that might swing a battle. Or it might make them avoid a battle they would actually have the advantage in because they are weary about that unknown new class. And we'd only need to wait one more year for that. We already spent half the price for preserving the possibility of surprising them with the first wave.
 
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Wouldn't we be allowed (not that we would necessarily want) to attack Legei, the Dylaarian entry point to the GBZ, within the GBZ (according to the map)?

No. Current rules with regards to attacking Dylaarian claims are Red Light. We don't attack them, if fired upon we retreat if possible, if not possible we defend ourselves but let them retreat.
 
Wouldn't we be allowed (not that we would necessarily want) to attack Legei, the Dylaarian entry point to the GBZ, within the GBZ (according to the map)?
No. We're on red light and it would be dumb.

The Ashalla Pact is very vulnerable politically. There's no unifying ideology or agenda. The Cardassians and Sydraxians are in it to oppose the UFP for very different reasons, the Cardassian client states near Cardassian are in it because they don't have any other options, the Dawair are are it because ???? and the LeCarre in are in because they're such rediculously paranoid bastards that they assumed the UFP had to be a trap or something - I'm really not sure.

We can drive wedges into it even under Celos constraints.

Dawair: Don't go after them, apply under-the-table influence, strongly imply that if they went neutral in the event of a general war we'd prevent Cardassian retaliation. We would, any Cardassian fleet elements already present could be smushed by the Starfleet and member assets in that sector and we need to do those anyway. Goal is to turn them.

Dylaarians/Konen/Goshowar: Avoid engaging them if possible. Try to look like the reasonable ones. Generally focus on CU assets to ensure that we look better and that they have the ability to pull a fast one if desired.

Edit: We want Ashalla Pact members other than the Sydraxians to realize that the Federation "threat" doesn't exist.

I say other than Sydraxians because at this point barring a 180 in Sydraxian foriegn policy the Federation is a real threat - they've antagonized us enough our default position is going to be interference in basically anything outside their own territory they do.
 
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I dunno, @Leila Hann and the comedic Biophage sketches she keeps being inspired to make are just killing me.
That's not because BIophage jokes are funny. That's because Leila is funny.

I think we should dissuade the Dylaarians by citing Hannibal v. Alps to show we have a copyright on unexpected flanking maneuvers.
...You know, that is just crazy enough to work, and it's harmless... I approve 100%. We should try.

If the Cardassians argue, we will point out that while the Treaty of Celos has us promise to abstain from diplomacy, it says nothing about lawsuits for copyright infringement!

2. Trying to minimize the amount of >1mt ships we have in the GBZ, so sending one of the new Excelsiors to anchor Sol and sending the Renaissance to the GBZ.
I'd make this the Ferasa sector and the Hood, both because the Ferasa sector is also "sort of a border zone" and to continue to keep the Renaissance away from curious eyes. Make them actually spend a report if they want to know any stats, and perhaps get inaccurate ones anyway due to out good counter intel.
I like this idea. Though I'm torn between doing this and Briefvoice's idea.

However, if we can keep the Cardassians from realizing just what the Rennies are capable of for a few more years, we may well be able to buy a window of opportunity in the late 2310s and early 2320s when we have qualitative ascendency in cruisers, before the Cardassians are pushed into refitting the Jalduns and/or designing their own next-generation general purpose cruiser.

Look, the Sydraxi have established that when the Federation comes around to take your badass credentials away, they are thorough.
...Conceded.
 
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IT's just one ship, and the difference to a Connie-B isn't very likely to make a significant difference in any particular battle. 4 of them at the same time, when the enemy commander has little knowledge about them and perhaps doesn't properly consider them when deciding to engage, that might swing a battle. Or it might make them avoid a battle they would actually have the advantage in because they are weary about that unknown new class. And we'd only need to wait one more year for that. We already spent half the price of preserving the possibility of surprising them with the first wave.

Well... perhaps you have a point after all. It might be better to simply send both Excelsiors to the GBZ. Yes they're tougher to repair, but there is a certain intimidation value. Seeing four of them leading a fleet is likely to make even an enemy admiral blanch.
 
I think the Renaissance should be sent to Rigal or any potential Licori task force because crazy mad science may mean higher chances of hull or shield rolls, and not just having them as combat stats.
 
Honestly, I'd really prefer to put an EC ship on point for any anti-Licori mission because there's a 100% chance of the enemy force attempting to weaponize esoteric science bullshit, and we need our own bullshit weaponizers there to counter it.
 
Well... perhaps you have a point after all. It might be better to simply send both Excelsiors to the GBZ. Yes they're tougher to repair, but there is a certain intimidation value. Seeing four of them leading a fleet is likely to make even an enemy admiral blanch.
The other argument for sending an Excelsior to the Ferasa sector, that it could really use an Excelsior, still stands. It's a huge sector with long external border, three integrated affiliates (which might generate extra events, we have seen some indications but nothing conclusive), and presumably a new neighboring affiliate sector where Ferasa sector ships can also respond to events. If I had to pick between the Rigel and the Ferasa sector and we could send an Excelsior to just one of them I'd be somewhat inclined towards picking the Ferasa sector, even considering the Licori, though it certainly would not be an easy choice. It's a good thing that we don't really need to choose between them.
 
Honestly, I'd really prefer to put an EC ship on point for any anti-Licori mission because there's a 100% chance of the enemy force attempting to weaponize esoteric science bullshit, and we need our own bullshit weaponizers there to counter it.

Mentat Dikhed: None of my science is 'bullshit'. Allow me to prove it. As my culture disdains mechanical intelligence, I make sure I check my work with good old-fashioned biological intelligence. That is, my collection of brains that I removed Gaeni, Human, Vulcan, and Ked Peddah subjects. Allowed stimulus only through connections that I control, they can be encouraged to spend their considerable collective computing power in pondering those question I wish, lest a poor performance force me to eliminate their sensory inputs. I merely program in the question, "Brain array, is my science bullshit?" In mere moments the data readout gives their reply, which translates as, "Nooooooooooo!" I await your apology.
 
That plays interestingly with the "I want to kill the Lampreys" video I just watched...

I'm opposed to this suggestion. The Dylaarians seem relatively peaceful (if super-duper motivated by IP rights). So far we have interacted with the Dylaarians only twice. On both occasions they proved amenable to reason and 'enlightened self-interest.' They are a prime candidate for prying away from the Cardassians, because Cardassia can't give them anything we can't give them too, and we're more likely to respect their cultural values, even if said cultural values make SV forumgoers want to strangle the little geckobastards occasionally.

Furthermore, the Dylaarian expansion into the Gabriel Expanse is not a direct threat to the Federation. The biggest reason we're aggressively fighting the Ashalla Pact in the region is mostly just to prevent the Sydraxians and Cardassians from having an easy route to link up by. Dylaarian colonies in the coreward-spinward corner of the Expanse won't cause a problem with that. The Dylaarian colonies are even farther from the Sydraxian homeworld of Borandt III than the Cardassian border is, after all; any supply line that links Cardassia and the Hierarchy by way of Dylaarian space is going to be so long and roundabout that we've won a major victory just by forcing their ships to travel such a long route.

Moreover, it is likely to cause political dissension in the Council if Ainsworth goes after the Dylaarians. Because unlike the Cardassians and Sydraxians, the Dylaarians have no history of provoking or attacking us. Very few Council members are upset to see Sydraxian warships explode, after those same warships attacked United Earth holdings repeatedly a few years ago. Cardassian warships, likewise. Even the Pacifists will settle for grumbling quietly when we blow up their ships in aggressive operations. They won't feel that way about the Dylaarians, who have done nothing to us, who have never initiated violence against us, and who were willing to listen to reason during first contact even when they believed we had violated one of their most sacred laws.

Therefore, it would be a really bad idea to launch a violent pre-emptive strike against the Dylaarians. We'd be alienating a group we have good reason to hope we can one day persuade to abandon the Cardassian cause, a group that is not a threat and has not provoked us in any way, and it would cause us political problems later on.

Red light can't touch them yet + the moral issues. fair enough.

One, the Federation government is strongly opposed to this sort of thing. Two, the Yrillians, especially the fierce and piratical Yrillians, tend to like the Sydraxians better than they like us. What's to stop Yrillian pirates from just pocketing the money and, you know, not attacking the Sydraxians? Or for that matter, just warning the Sydraxians we're coming and staging fake fights or something? The Hierarchy and the Yrillian pirates already collude to run a protection racket on the Gretarians; why wouldn't they collude to run a con on us?

Sometimes it's better to ask forgivness than permission, or just hide what was done. While they are untrustworthy that is what makes them good cats paws. Sometimes bad things have to be done to keep good people safe.

the biophage thing i won't try to defend.

Okay this one isn't so bad. It's also the sort of low level tactical detail Ainsworth handles on her own, that is literally what we pay her for, so that we aren't doing a tactical micromanagement game with our ships in the Expanse.

it's not so much micro management and more of giving her the force composition she needs to do her job. large fleet tactics require a capital ship core, crusier back up and escort screen. Raid/ambush tactics require larger numbers of escorts and crusiers with few Capital ships. it's hard to hide a cap, and they are usually too slow and less manuverable for this tactic.

Don't suggest things you know are bad ideas. It's hurting other people.

Starting the war with the Cardassians and their allies I think is a bad idea at this time. we arn't suficiently perpaired. but sometimes it's better to rip the bandaid off and get it over with. it is one difinative end to our current problem.

On the other point who have I hurt? I've asked a general question to the board. not accused a specific member od wrong doing.

We literally just signed a treaty where promising not to do this was the cornerstone of the treaty. Did you read the stuff surrounding Celos?
I think that willfully suggesting bad ideas that involve doing evil unto people and breaking treaties is a bad thing and I hope you stop.

Black ops are designed to work around treaties. espionage and counter intelligence are the weapons of a cold war. Which is what we are in with the cardassians. we have a restricted zone for military operations. everything else is open.

this is a nation building game. a moral nation, but not every action has to be good. releasing a bio weapon, bending the rules of a treaty and using pirates in a game are not evil. maybe not nice tactics but not evil. in RL yes some of those are evil, but don't lose site this is a game. don't take it too seriously.
 
I prefer Excelsiors in sector garrison as they are so much better at response than they are at fighting.



Unrelated, I've just chewed through the entire battle log for the purpose of writing an omake for the battle, and here are some observations. No, I didn't mine the thing for stats:
- The Kumari's hull damage was almost entirely due to burnthrough. She was incredibly unlucky in taking burn hits while her shields were up, and only took two shots after they went down before they recharged again.
- In the early stages of the battle, both sides frigates were focused, likely due to luck. However, ours were able to break engagement while theirs continued to be hit. This let our frigates keep shield until the mid stages while theirs were forced to retreat.
- The Fidelity may be our most damaged ship, but she was also a god damn hero, chasing down a fleeing Hasque and killing it while at zero shields herself, and taking a hit to the bridge for her trouble (1/1 officers casualty). She then started dueling another Hasque that was on the run until it left.
- Demora Sulu had a habit of taking fire at the worst times. I interpret this as her being somewhat reckless with her ship
- We killed the Kalindraxes in part because their frigates were driven from the field first, and in part because our capships retained full combat strength late in the battle, letting them score full strength hits as the cruisers tried to flee.
- The outpost was a damage sponge, but each Kalindrax performed an individual retreat check, and each was destroyed before the retreat was completed.
- Turns to retreat is dependent on the size of battle, but I have a feeling it is not reduced as ships are killed or leave the field
- Once the cruisers were down, the outpost was not able to damage any more of our ships, despite scoring hits on the Agile and T'Kumbra which had both lost shields at one point. Recharge kept them going and the outpost folded rather fast.
- There will probably be many honors among the Amarki, their ships made a marked difference at many points.
- While ships like the Miranda and Apiata are good for smaller battles, more survivability in escorts is nice for long battles. The Amarki escorts performed well from start to finish, while ours burned short and fast.


By the way @OneirosTheWriter what happened to wargames with the Salnas?

Also, does the Abhriec have a known captain?
 
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