That is the problem. At the moment we handle internal matters as well, not just external. So calling it not our responsibility is not true until some other organization takes it off of our shoulders.

We have to shed some of these extra fat/responsibilities. And we will have to have a hand in creating of the new organization because it seems politicians are not planing to do it themselves as they are perfectly happy to not pay for it and make Starfleet handle it.
Tasoli, as far as I can tell, you're arguing "it must be a burdensome problem for us because we can't prove it's NOT a burdensome problem."

Do we have any concrete evidence that these responsibilities are a burden to Starfleet and that we'll be better off without them? Do you think interior sector Defense requirements are likely to go down if we persuade the Council to create the Federation Bureau of Investigation? Because I don't; the existence of the FBI won't remove our need for warp-capable starships patrolling our own space. Are we paying pp every year to cover the 'cost' of carrying out internal criminal investigations? So far as I know, we're not.

Frankly, there isn't much evidence that this is our problem, or that even if it is, it's actually hurting us.

So I disagree, we don't have to "shed some of these extra fat/responsibilities," we certainly don't have to do it this year, and we certainly shouldn't do it at the expense of ignoring an ongoing war on our borders, or at the expense of preventing the Yrillians from uniting against us, or at the expense of ignoring our internal shipping problems.



On another note I've been so preoccupied with other stuff that I didn't have time to vote. I'm with @Briefvoice on this one.

[X] [COUNCIL] Plan Intelligence, Education, Diplomacy and Industrial Expansion
-[X] Request Academy Development, 35pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
-[X] Request Science Academy Development, 15pp (Gain +1 Techs throughput)
-[X] Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 20pp [pure medical, possible background: split Starfleet Medical Command research into two divisions, Medical Equipment (existing team) and Experimental Treatments (new team)]
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Ulen Gao VII, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 (25) br/year)
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Peco Sigma, 8pp (4 turns, gain +10 (20) sr/year)
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Castor IV-2, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 (30) sr/year)
-[X] Request new Starbase I [Betazed] (15+12) * 0.75 = 20.25pp
-[X] Request new Shipyard at Betazed, 18pp (8 turns, 2 1mt Berths)
-[X] Request new Shipyard at Apinae , 33pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Yrillians]
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Ittick-ka]
-[X] Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. (Cardassian Border Zone), 20pp
-[X] Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position: 20pp for Starfleet Intelligence

[X][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among the Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. The Council has also given frequent reminders of how squeezed Starfleet is for transports in its auxiliary fleet. Why not solve one problem with another? Yrillians are famous for building more ships than they strictly need. We would like to begin an outreach program by hiring Yrillian cargo ships and freighters to alleviate our temporary shipping crunch. Depending on availability, this could be extended to include other auxiliary ship work where the Federation's expansion has left us straining. The goal is to alleviate that strain and simultaneously to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests, thus increasing pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

[X][NAME] Lasieth Craft Yards
 
@Nix and others, any particular reason you're going for "Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr" rather than "Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr" when the latter would effectively help claim more territory? Worried about encroaching on the Licori?
I mentioned it when explaining my draft, Proxima Eridani is pretty close to both Sol and Vulcan, our main ship building systems, and would therefore alleviate our logistic problems. Freighters can make the quick tour there and let br pile up further away (as represented by our stockpile).
Also, you need to actually vote for your plan. You just put as "Base Plan" and never voted for it.
I know, still trying to decide between faction votes.
 
Do you really want to put literally all our new shipyards in the same place when given the choice? I get that it's a little cheaper, but it's a massive single point of failure that sets us up for scenarios straight out of the movies:

Um, no. I only said nearby systems. Putting everything in Sol would be idiotic.

Putting shipyards that would be built extremely close to Sol, in Sol, makes perfect sense. Places like Betazed, Andor, or any new members within a few weeks of Sol. Outside of that immediate range, building up shipyards is perfectly reasonable. I have no issue with shipyards in Apinae, Leas Akam, or wherever. My whole point was, if, from a defensive and logistic standpoint, the shipyard might as well be in Sol, then we should just put it there and get more of a benefit.
 
Last edited:
[X] [COUNCIL] Base Plan Preemtive Diplomacy and Staking Claims

[X][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among the Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. The Council has also given frequent reminders of how squeezed Starfleet is for transports in its auxiliary fleet. Why not solve one problem with another? Yrillians are famous for building more ships than they strictly need. We would like to begin an outreach program by hiring Yrillian cargo ships and freighters to alleviate our temporary shipping crunch. Depending on availability, this could be extended to include other auxiliary ship work where the Federation's expansion has left us straining. The goal is to alleviate that strain and simultaneously to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests, thus increasing pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.
 
[X] [COUNCIL] Plan Unnamed Plan
-[X] Request Academy Development, 35pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
-[X] Request Science Academy Development, 15pp (Gain +1 Techs throughput)
-[X] Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 20pp [pure medical, possible background: split Starfleet Medical Command research into two divisions, Medical Equipment (existing team) and Experimental Treatments (new team)]
-[X]Request Mining Colony at Castor IV-2, 8pp, 20 (30) sr/yr, 4 turns
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Ulen Gao VII, 8pp, 20 (25) br/yr, 4 turns
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Peco Sigma, 8pp, 10 (20) sr/year, 4 turns-[X] Request new Starbase I [Betazed] (15+12) * 0.75 = 20.25pp
-[X] Request new Shipyard at Betazed, 18pp (8 turns, 2 1mt Berths)
-[X] Request new Shipyard at Apinae , 33pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
-[X] Request Cruiser berth at Utopia Planitia, 11pp (6 turns, gain new 2m t berth)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Yrillians]
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Ittick-ka]
-[X] Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position: 20pp for Starfleet Intelligence

244.25pp.
PUP is Plan IEDIE, but replacing the listening posts with the fourth mining colony and the cruiser berth. I'm undecided, though, on which is better. I'm worried that we'll have to abandon the listening posts (due to the onset of general war) too soon for them to have been useful.

I might wind up switching to PIEDIE anyway.

[X][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which would also help our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

[X][NAME] Gaela Craft Yards
Reminder:
Lord Gaela, the wise patrician who assembled the dream team of scientists and engineers who created the first Amarki warp drive and founded their first extraplanetary colony.

(I kinda just don't like Lasieth, for some reason. Though if someone comes up with a cool meaning for the name...)
 
Last edited:
Do you really want to put literally all our new shipyards in the same place when given the choice? I get that it's a little cheaper, but it's a massive single point of failure that sets us up for scenarios straight out of the movies:

"It's headed for Earth! We're the only ship in range... and if we screw this up the Federation is toast."
I mean, Earth is the capital and center of the Federation and contains alot of critical infrastructure. Placing a few shipyard berths more or less in the system isn't going to change that.
 
No. Which is one reason I'm holding off. Before we push the Gretarians to 100 we should position ships to rush in and contest Sydraxi control if they try to assert it.

This is why it's annoying to me to see the planners who are currently voting for the Gretarians (looking at you @Nix) fail to address the possibility. I've been looking for justifications, but I can't find any.
 
This is why it's annoying to me to see the planners who are currently voting for the Gretarians (looking at you @Nix) fail to address the possibility. I've been looking for justifications, but I can't find any.
Are we going to have an opportunity to deploy extra ships to the SBZ soon? Cus if there is one, and it doesn't endanger our other plans significantly, then it's still viable.
 
I see pushing the Gretarians as likely to start a war with the Sydraxians as soon as possible. I think it would be a great shame to do that before we can achieve Yrillian neutrality.

There seems to be this thought that by pushing the Gretarians we can make them an affiliate. I don't see it. Affiliate status has been obstructed for far weaker reasons than being under the thumb of a hostile firegn power.

Are we going to have an opportunity to deploy extra ships to the SBZ soon? Cus if there is one, and it doesn't endanger our other plans significantly, then it's still viable.

Can you run me through the sequence of events you see happening or want to ahve happen? We do a diplomatic push on the Gretarians. What happens then?
 
Are we going to have an opportunity to deploy extra ships to the SBZ soon? Cus if there is one, and it doesn't endanger our other plans significantly, then it's still viable.

I don't think it matters how many ships we have on the border if we are not willing or able to go to war with the Sydraxians and potentially break the Treaty of Celos to defend the Gretarians. In the event of another Bajor-type move, either we ignite a general war or we back down and the Gretarians are worse off than they were.
 
[] [COUNCIL] Base Plan Mines, Diplomacy and Intel
-[] Request Academy Development, 35pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
-[] Request Science Academy Development, 15pp (Gain +1 Techs throughput)
-[] Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 20pp [pure medical, possible background: split Starfleet Medical Command research into two divisions, Medical Equipment (existing team) and Experimental Treatments (new team)]
-[] Request Mining Colony at Ulen Gao VII, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 (25) br/year)
-[] Request Mining Colony at Peco Sigma, 8pp (4 turns, gain +10 (20) sr/year)
-[] Request Mining Colony at Castor IV-2, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 (30) sr/year)
-[] Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
-[] Request new Starbase I [Betazed] (15+12) * 0.75 = 21 pp
-[] Request new Shipyard at Apinae , 33pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
-[] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Yrillians]
-[] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Ittick-ka]
-[] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp [Laio]
-[] Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. (Cardassian Border Zone), 20pp

236pp, leaves 17 pp left over. By the way for this year we will have a PP income of 116+X (97 current, 2 from new EC ship, 17 from Colony Cores, X from Seyek).

Next year projects: Academy development (any), KBZ starbase, Betazoid shipyard, Constellation refit, Intel to VAdm slot, listening posts to another border zone. I think keeping the extra 17pp is a better bet than spending them on a Cruiser berth at utopia (only thing that can be afforded)

[X] [COUNCIL] Plan Mines, Diplomacy and Intel

[X] [NAME] Lasieth Craft Yards

[X][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which would also help our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.
 
Last edited:
This is why it's annoying to me to see the planners who are currently voting for the Gretarians (looking at you @Nix) fail to address the possibility. I've been looking for justifications, but I can't find any.
I don't consider it a likely scenario at all, there is not a single relevant factor that's similar to the Bajoran situation (and remember, I was among the first to warn against pushing the Bajorans). In any case rushing ships in shouldn't matter, if the Sydraxians attack before they sign an affiliation treaty we can't do anything without breaking the treaty anyway, if they attack afterwards they are the ones breaking the treaty. The Sydraxians are probably much less likely to be able to respond quickly this year than they would be next, considering that they are distracted with trying to establish themselves in the GBZ once more. Next year they will probably have given up already, and formally subjugating the Gretarians might just be what they decide to do as compensation.
 
Um, no. I only said nearby systems. Putting everything in Sol would be idiotic.

Putting shipyards that would be built extremely close to Sol, in Sol, makes perfect sense. Places like Betazed, Andor, or any new members within a few weeks of Sol. Outside of that immediate range, building up shipyards is perfectly reasonable. I have no issue with shipyards in Apinae, Leas Akam, or wherever. My whole point was, if, from a defensive and logistic standpoint, the shipyard might as well be in Sol, then we should just put it there and get more of a benefit.
None of the options for expanding berths in Sol give us the same benefit we get from the Betazed yard: namely, two one-megaton berths at a very low price. We can get one such berth at unfavorable prices (San Francisco), we can get one heavier berth at Utopia Planitia, or we can overspend on getting another explorer berth at Utopia Planitia in order to get an extra light berth.

Given the specific interest in having paired berths that can build auxiliaries and light ships, the Betazed yard has an advantage. If there were a "two one-megaton berths at Utopia Planitia" option that had similar associated costs, I'd be more amenable to your line of reasoning.

I mean, Earth is the capital and center of the Federation and contains alot of critical infrastructure. Placing a few shipyard berths more or less in the system isn't going to change that.
Are you familiar with proof by induction? The argument goes "Well, blah is true if X equals one. And if blah is true when X equals whatever, then adding one to X won't change that. Therefore, if blah is true for X equals one, it's also true for two, three, four... and so on forever."

This kind of reasoning (we already have masses of vital infrastructure in Sol system, so no harm in adding more) leads us 'by induction' to a very humanocentric Federation, and to a Federation that is hideously vulnerable to a decapitation strike against Sol. As opposed to being merely 'badly vulnerable.'

Right now we've got a major problem just in terms of crewing all the ships we're building as we speak. Revving up the rate at which we build new ships is if anything the least important of our priorities, compared to expanding our capacity to repair the ships we have and to build support vessels.

It isn't a good reason to hyper-centralize, at the expense of losing focus on our pressing need for facilities capable of building and maintaining small ships.
 
[X][NAME] Lasieth Craft Yards

[X][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which would also help our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Mines, Diplomacy and Intel

Reasoning for Laio- there are two routes to Ked Peddah space from the Federation, one through Licori space and the other through the Laio. It is also possible for us to get them to affiliate status with a good roll. Ittik-Ka is to try and keep them out of Cardassian hands as that would be a major resource boon for the Cardassians. And Yrillian is to try and get them onto our side, doing so will be a counter-weight to the Sydraxian and may get the Sydraxian to a more neutral point of view. Also I want to get the Yrillian situation resolved before trying to intervene with the Graterians.
 
Last edited:
Here's my appeal for the wider scope Yrillian faction vote:

We know how many ships the Yrillians have. There's maybe 50 crew, so if we hire a dozen (a large portion of their total shipping) we're looking at 600 people we influence. Granted those 600 have a lot of influence in Yrillian society and especially foreign policy, but even if we assign a factor of 10000 to them that's a tiny drop in the bucket of the total Yrillian population, maybe six million. Same for shipyards, 1000 in a shipyard's work gangs might influence ten million total.

Meanwhile, what we could do is put quality Rigellian goods on every household table, sign star actors to holomovie contacts, import entire skilled construction crews, tour theatre troupes to Arqeniou and comedy groups to Risa... the Federation civilian market is the perfect venue for Yrillian creativity and industriousness. We don't get that out of making the deal focused on Starfleet's shipping.

Make the Federation well known as the place your kids can go for fame, freedom, and prosperity. That's how we win the Yrillians over.

Then next time one of their spacer work gangs pirates a United Earth cargo ship or holds a passenger liner hostage, there will be a riot. That's something we can't do and the kind of reach we won't have with the cargo-focused vote. A hearts and minds campaign can be so much more than a few hundred spacers. It would have to be, if we want any chance of tipping the Yrillian central government and the population at large into supporting Federation membership.
 
Reasoning for Laio- there are two routes to Ked Peddah space from the Federation, one through Licori space and the other through the Laio. It is also possible for us to get them to affiliate status with a good roll.
But is all that worth betting 20pp on? If our roll isn't good and we don't get all the way to 100, will it be worth spending another 20pp to get the desired result?

If we don't get the Laio as affiliates, does that somehow prevent us from passing through their space? They don't seem inclined to order us out, and it's not like we don't let neutral ships through our space.

With 20pp diplomatic pushes, we can't afford to push anyone on general principles. We have to ask "Hey, where's the fire? What about this situation is urgent and requires us to get close to this species right now?"

With the Yrillians and the Ittick-ka, we have a clear answer. Even with the Gretarians we have an answer- in that while it may or may not be a good idea to push relations with them, we at least know of a reason to think there is time pressure.

With the Laio, there really doesn't seem to be much in the way of time pressure. If they don't become our affiliates this year, it's not likely to be a problem. If it takes them two or three years, likewise. No one is likely to snap them up before we can get to them, and they don't present a threat or a crisis for us to deal with.

Plus of course the fact that the Explorer Corps is operating in the area already and another +25 to relations with the Laios is likely. Look at how fast we got the Yan-Ros to affiliates, and we were barely even trying- because those event checks kept going 'ding ding ding.'
 
Here's my appeal for the wider scope Yrillian faction vote:

We know how many ships the Yrillians have. There's maybe 50 crew, so if we hire a dozen (a large portion of their total shipping) we're looking at 600 people we influence. Granted those 600 have a lot of influence in Yrillian society and especially foreign policy, but even if we assign a factor of 10000 to them that's a tiny drop in the bucket of the total Yrillian population, maybe six million. Same for shipyards, 1000 in a shipyard's work gangs might influence ten million total.

Meanwhile, what we could do is put quality Rigellian goods on every household table, sign star actors to holomovie contacts, import entire skilled construction crews, tour theatre troupes to Arqeniou and comedy groups to Risa... the Federation civilian market is the perfect venue for Yrillian creativity and industriousness. We don't get that out of making the deal focused on Starfleet's shipping.

Make the Federation well known as the place your kids can go for fame, freedom, and prosperity. That's how we win the Yrillians over.

Then next time one of their spacer work gangs pirates a United Earth cargo ship or holds a passenger liner hostage, there will be a riot. That's something we can't do and the kind of reach we won't have with the cargo-focused vote. A hearts and minds campaign can be so much more than a few hundred spacers. It would have to be, if we want any chance of tipping the Yrillian central government and the population at large into supporting Federation membership.
I feel briefvoice's take will do the same, and doesn't sound condescending
 
[X][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among the Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. The Council has also given frequent reminders of how squeezed Starfleet is for transports in its auxiliary fleet. Why not solve one problem with another? Yrillians are famous for building more ships than they strictly need. We would like to begin an outreach program by hiring Yrillian cargo ships and freighters to alleviate our temporary shipping crunch. Depending on availability, this could be extended to include other auxiliary ship work where the Federation's expansion has left us straining. The goal is to alleviate that strain and simultaneously to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests, thus increasing pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.
I feel briefvoice's take will do the same, and doesn't sound condescending

There's nothing to suggest that it would be any more than hiring ships. It's all about auxiliaries and nothing else.
 
The goal is explicitly stated in the last line of Briefvoice's option, and it fully aligns with "win hearts and minds, and not just the hearts and minds that happen to be spaceship captains."

Tinkering with the exact wording of the proposal isn't going to make much of a difference.

Here's my appeal for the wider scope Yrillian faction vote:

We know how many ships the Yrillians have. There's maybe 50 crew, so if we hire a dozen (a large portion of their total shipping) we're looking at 600 people we influence. Granted those 600 have a lot of influence in Yrillian society and especially foreign policy, but even if we assign a factor of 10000 to them that's a tiny drop in the bucket of the total Yrillian population, maybe six million. Same for shipyards, 1000 in a shipyard's work gangs might influence ten million total.
We have a lot of indications that the Yrillians have a highly active spacefaring culture. Even if that culture is a niche group in terms of raw numbers, they're the one we have to worry about, much more than we have to worry about the reactions of Yrillian civilians stuck planetside. Sure, the numbers don't add up if we think of the crews of the individual Yrillian ships and compare them to the probable Yrillian population, but frankly if we were going to blow a gasket over that we shouldn't even be talking Star Trek in the first place. If the Yrillians have a strong independent spacer faction that heavily influences their culture and politics, then the Yrillians have a strong independent spacer faction that heavily influences their culture and politics, and that's the end of it.

But that notwithstanding, because I am well aware that you are at least trying in good faith to address that point...

Meanwhile, what we could do is put quality Rigellian goods on every household table, sign star actors to holomovie contacts, import entire skilled construction crews, tour theatre troupes to Arqeniou and comedy groups to Risa... the Federation civilian market is the perfect venue for Yrillian creativity and industriousness. We don't get that out of making the deal focused on Starfleet's shipping.

Make the Federation well known as the place your kids can go for fame, freedom, and prosperity. That's how we win the Yrillians over.
I like this, but I really think that bickering over the exact wording of the vote isn't the way to do it. Hiring Yrillian shipping organizations and increasing our trade with them overall aren't mutually exclusive, and it's unlikely that we even could get the former without the latter increasing as a collateral side effect.

So chalk me up as voting for the 'farcical' idea, since I for one don't see it as such a joke.
 
Last edited:
The goal is explicitly stated in the last line of Briefvoice's option, and it fully aligns with "win hearts and minds, and not just the hearts and minds that happen to be spaceship captains."

We have a lot of indications that the Yrillians have a highly active spacefaring culture. Even if that culture is a niche group in terms of raw numbers, they're the one we have to worry about, much more than we have to worry about the reactions of Yrillian civilians stuck planetside. Sure, the numbers don't add up if we think of the crews of the individual Yrillian ships and compare them to the probable Yrillian population, but frankly if we were going to blow a gasket over that we shouldn't even be talking Star Trek in the first place. If the Yrillians have a strong independent spacer faction that heavily influences their culture and politics, then the Yrillians have a strong independent spacer faction that heavily influences their culture and politics, and that's the end of it.

But that notwithstanding, because I am well aware that you are at least trying in good faith to address that point...

I like this, but I really think that bickering over the exact wording of the vote isn't the way to do it. Hiring Yrillian shipping organizations and increasing our trade with them overall aren't mutually exclusive, and it's unlikely that we even could get the former without the latter increasing as a collateral side effect.

So chalk me up as voting for the 'farcical' idea, since I for one don't see it as such a joke.
I had to delete what I was going to say since you explained it far better than I ever could. Thanks!
 
Back
Top