To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Actually how would people feel about trading the new BR mine to the Rigellians in exchange for help from their megatortise and 2 turtleships in the GBZ? Yellow light them and they provide a strong striking force, and that megatortise can tank a lot of damage (S9, H8) with a combat of 6, while their turtleships are C4 H5 L5.

Erandil · Mar 9, 2017

lbmaian said:
If it was just Starfleet alone, then I'd be very on the fence on it. The combination of it:
a) competing in the same niche as the Renaissance (combat-focused light cruiser)
b) non-trivial resource costs
c) refit time actually taking longer than scrapping one to help crew a Renaissance a year before its launch
d) still high crew reqs
makes scrapping them for Renaissance arguably cost effective and timely.

It's the fact that the member fleets still have 11 Constellations that tips the scales in favor of the refit. They don't have as many resources to replace their Constellations with Renaissances.

If 1H could be traded for 1P, or even 1C traded for another 1S or 1P, then it would help fill a niche that we currently lack: garrison frigate/light-cruiser optimized for event response. Centaur-A makes a passable attempt at fulfilling it, but a Constellation-A S3+ P3+ D4 would be an improvement over that. Kepler would fill that role better, but that's not going to be available for mass production until turn of the decade if that.

But do we truly benefit hat much from our affiliates having upgraded Constellations (if they even get them in anything resembling a reasonable time-frame...)?

Nervos Belli · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Actually how would people feel about trading the new BR mine to the Rigellians in exchange for help from their megatortise and 2 turtleships in the GBZ? Yellow light them and they provide a strong striking force, and that megatortise can tank a lot of damage (S9, H8) with a combat of 6, while their turtleships are C4 H5 L5.

We've talked about getting the Rigellians involved before, and one of the issues is that Rigel sector is bordered by a lot of unknown territory. After the GBZ, it's our most natural direction to expand. We want the Rigellians colonizing and exploring coreward, which they're going to need ships for.

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Erandil said:
But do we truly benefit hat much from our affiliates having upgraded Constellations (if they even get them in anything resembling a reasonable time-frame...)?

The first ones would go out of service 2316.Q1 and finish 2317.Q1 and provide a much bigger punch and survivability for the constellation. Refits only take a year to do.

Night · Mar 9, 2017

Erandil said:
But do we truly benefit hat much from our affiliates having upgraded Constellations (if they even get them in anything resembling a reasonable time-frame...)?

If we care at all about a possible General War scenario, yes.

Erandil · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Actually how would people feel about trading the new BR mine to the Rigellians in exchange for help from their megatortise and 2 turtleships in the GBZ? Yellow light them and they provide a strong striking force, and that megatortise can tank a lot of damage (S9, H8) with a combat of 6, while their turtleships are C4 H5 L5.

Considering the non-militarisatic mindset of the Rigellians I don't think that this is that much of a good idea nor that there would be much interest in such a deal by their government + they have more than enough "open" space in their neighbourhood. The current idea of letting the aggressive races operate in the GBZ while keeping those not inclined in such things out seems smart to me and less likely to cause any internal diplomatic issues.

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Nervos Belli said:
We've talked about getting the Rigellians involved before, and one of the issues is that Rigel sector is bordered by a lot of unknown territory. After the GBZ, it's our most natural direction to expand. We want the Rigellians colonizing and exploring coreward, which they're going to need ships for.

They have 6 turtleships and 1 megatortise with a second under construction, they are also currently suffering from a low resource income compared to their crew income. Giving them the BR mine will help that some, plus affiliating the Liaos gives us another race near them that can help with expansion there. They also have 6 cutters with a science of 4 (which is also what the turtleship and megatortise have). If we combine offering them the BR mine and perhaps assigning an Oberth to help them scout for resources nearby in exchange for their explorer and two of their cruisers I think they would take that.

Nervos Belli · Mar 9, 2017

I just had a thought. Could we do a deal with the Hawk faction to get the Amarki to sign up with Ainsworth's task force? Offer the Amarki first dibs on the next colony site Starfleet discovers or something? Might make it easier for Ainsworth to go aggressive.

Briefvoice · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
They have 6 turtleships and 1 megatortise with a second under construction, they are also currently suffering from a low resource income compared to their crew income. Giving them the BR mine will help that some, plus affiliating the Liaos gives us another race near them that can help with expansion there. They also have 6 cutters with a science of 4 (which is also what the turtleship and megatortise have). If we combine offering them the BR mine and perhaps assigning an Oberth to help them scout for resources nearby in exchange for their explorer and two of their cruisers I think they would take that.

No they won't.

Look, the whole point of going to the Gabriel Expanse is because of all the wonderful mineral wealth and potential colony sites there. The reward for going there is getting in on a piece of the action. If the Rigellians decide to go in, they'll go in for that, not a mildly productive BR mining colony that they then have to build for themselves. A share of the Expanse is the only thing that would be worth sending their ships to oeprate weeks away and in danger of being blown up.

Nervos Belli said:
I just had a thought. Could we do a deal with the Hawk faction to get the Amarki to sign up with Ainsworth's task force? Offer the Amarki first dibs on the next colony site Starfleet discovers or something? Might make it easier for Ainsworth to go aggressive.

We had it in our power to force the Amarki to sign up with Ainsworth's task force and we explicitly voted to tell them that they didn't have to and it would be fine to operate independently. Has something happened to make you think we need to go back on that vote?

lbmaian · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
The first ones would go out of service 2316.Q1 and finish 2317.Q1 and provide a much bigger punch and survivability for the constellation. Refits only take a year to do.

Well the Constellation-A "cruiser variant" refit takes 1.5 years, not 1 year.

Renaissance takes 3 years or 2.25 years for Starfleet in parallel builds. 3 Constellation-As are comparable to 2 Renaissance in capabilities and costs, and with the parallel build bonus, the same berth time (3*1.5=2*2.25), albeit lower latency for the Constellation-A refit.

Void Stalker said:
They have 6 turtleships and 1 megatortise with a second under construction, they are also currently suffering from a low resource income compared to their crew income. Giving them the BR mine will help that some, plus affiliating the Liaos gives us another race near them that can help with expansion there. They also have 6 cutters with a science of 4 (which is also what the turtleship and megatortise have). If we combine offering them the BR mine and perhaps assigning an Oberth to help them scout for resources nearby in exchange for their explorer and two of their cruisers I think they would take that.

You know, if we could directly trade resources with the Andorians, we should be able to do the same with Rigellians in an coming MWCO. Not sure what we could trade for, and "trading" for a priority change sounds like a bribe.

I'd love it if we could do a Civilization-esque long-term trade of 50br/yr and 30sr/yr for increased Starfleet Academy recruitment (0.5 O/E/T?). Basically trade them the equivalent of a Starfleet budget increase for an Academy expansion.

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Current Federation Affiliates:
Caldonians 468/500 + 26 = 494/500 -10 = 484/500
Orions 420/500 + 19 = 439/500
Risa 379/500 + 25 = 404/500
Gaeni 368/500 + 18 = 386/500 +50 = 436/500
Qloathi 338/500 + 9 = 347/500 +10 = 357/500
Seyek 222/500 + 15 = 237/500 +25+25 = 287/500
Kadeshi 223/500 + 26 = 249/500
Honiani 105/100 + 29 = 134/500 +25 (2313.Q1 MWCO) +10 = 169/500
Yan-Ros 75/100 +25+25+25 = 150/500

Currently Known Others Possible Members:
Yrillians 164/100 - Affiliate Membership Internally + Externally Obstructed, but lines of dialogue opened
Licori 125/100 - Affiliate Status impossible [Conflict w/ Ked Peddah, Mentats] +10 =135/100
Gretarians 75/100 -Known to be under the thumb of Sydraxians
Laio 50/100+25 = 75/100
Sotaw 35/100
Ked Paddah 35/100
Ittick-ka 25/100

Currently Known Cardassian Clients
Bajorians 109/100 - Affiliate Status impossible [Cardassian Patronage]
Dawiar 101/100 - Affiliate Status impossible [Cardassian Client]
Dylaarians 50/100 + 10 = 60/100
Lecarrens -30/100
Sydraxians -40/100
Konen - x/100
Goshawnar - x/100

Updated relations as of 2314.Q1.M1
Some keys:
Seyek need only 13 on the annul roll to pass 300 and start giving us increased resources. Since the last snake pit we had events for the Yan-Ros three time, Laio once and Licori once in terms of races that were not affiliated. The Yan-Ros did affiliate from events but there is no guarantee that will be the case with any of the others.

Having said that I can see the logic of waiting on the Laio until next year and instead pushing the Ittick-ka, Ked Peddah and Yrillians this year.

Sotaw are not valid targets and Licori are blocked, and Gretarians are tied up with the Sydraxian situation. Boosting the Ked Peddah and Ittick-Ka inch them closer to the affiliate level and we are completing a tech this year to get an annual roll on a random non affiliate which will start in the 2315 Snakepit next year.

Nervos Belli · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
No they won't.

Look, the whole point of going to the Gabriel Expanse is because of all the wonderful mineral wealth and potential colony sites there. The reward for going there is getting in on a piece of the action. If the Rigellians decide to go in, they'll go in for that, not a mildly productive BR mining colony that they then have to build for themselves. A share of the Expanse is the only thing that would be worth sending their ships to oeprate weeks away and in danger of being blown up.

We had it in our power to force the Amarki to sign up with Ainsworth's task force and we explicitly voted to tell them that they didn't have to and it would be fine to operate independently. Has something happened to make you think we need to go back on that vote?

I voted that way because they would send more ships with a green light. With the present standoff I feel like concentrating our forces could give us an edge. I think it'd be advantageous for the Amarki to follow Ainsworth's ordersfor at least this year. It might not be the best deal we can negotiate, but I'm just tossing ideas around.

Goat · Mar 9, 2017

lbmaian said:
Well the Constellation-A "cruiser variant" refit takes 1.5 years, not 1 year.

The speculation for the longer time period is that the refit requires a new Warp Core to be manufactured and installed. Our other refits have not had to rip the middle of the Engineering section out.

Void Stalker said:
Caldonians 468/500 + 26 = 494/500 -10 = 484/500
Orions 420/500 + 19 = 439/500
Risa 379/500 + 25 = 404/500
Gaeni 368/500 + 18 = 386/500 +50 = 436/500

These 4 are almost certainly going to be 500/500 when the 'no more ratifications' period ends - the Development faction is going to hate having 4 Ratifications the quarter after that runs out .....

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

lbmaian said:
Well the Constellation-A "cruiser variant" refit takes 1.5 years, not 1 year.

Renaissance takes 3 years or 2.25 years for Starfleet in parallel builds. 3 Constellation-As are comparable to 2 Renaissance in capabilities and costs, and with the parallel build bonus, the same berth time (3*1.5=2*2.25), albeit lower latency for the Constellation-A refit.

You know, if we could directly trade resources with the Andorians, we should be able to do the same with Rigellians in an coming MWCO. Not sure what we could trade for, and "trading" for a priority change sounds like a bribe.

I'd love it if we could do a Civilization-esque long-term trade of 50br/yr and 30sr/yr for increased Starfleet Academy recruitment (0.5 O/E/T?). Basically trade them the equivalent of a Starfleet budget increase for an Academy expansion.

Huh, interesting all other refits take a year for the actual refit. Still refits are nice for lone berths and for filling time, plus the 11 our members run. Trading resources might be nice, but the issue for the Rigellians is they have a large amount of crew compared to resources right now, more so with enlisted and techs.

Glassware · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Sotaw are not valid targets and Licori are blocked, and Gretarians are tied up with the Sydraxian situation. Boosting the Ked Peddah and Ittick-Ka inch them closer to the affiliate level and we are completing a tech this year to get an annual roll on a random non affiliate which will start in the 2315 Snakepit next year.

We're not forbidden from pushing the Gretarians. It could potentially push the Sydraxians to try to pull a Bajor on them if we pushed them to 100 admittedly.

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Glassware said:
We're not forbidden from pushing the Gretarians. It could potentially push the Sydraxians to try to pull a Bajor on them if we pushed them to 100 admittedly.

I doubt it, if they tried we could crush them, though that may be better waiting till next year when we have more ships ready plus a better handle on the GBZ, and 3 Excelsiors for general deployment finishing.

lbmaian · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Trading resources might be nice, but the issue for the Rigellians is they have a large amount of crew compared to resources right now, more so with enlisted and techs.

Yes...that's why I wish we could trade them BR and SR so that they can utilize their crew. The big question is what can we trade for? With Starfleet's crew standards, I doubt we could just transfer Rigellian crew to Starfleet. The best way I could think was trading them the BR/SR income equivalent of Starfleet budget increase for increased Starfleet academy enrollment of around Academy expansion magnitude.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Mar 9, 2017

If we were to spend a Sousa Deal on such a thing, I'd like to add a transfers office to the MWCO. That way we have infrastructure in place to do crew swaps or move around resources more frequently.

Briefvoice · Mar 9, 2017

Nervos Belli said:
I voted that way because they would send more ships with a green light. With the present standoff I feel like concentrating our forces could give us an edge. I think it'd be advantageous for the Amarki to follow Ainsworth's ordersfor at least this year. It might not be the best deal we can negotiate, but I'm just tossing ideas around.

I'm not sure that would even take a special deal. We might simply be able to switch the Amarki back to a Yellow Light at one of the periodic Gabriel consultation votes. ...which of course means they'll probably withdraw at least some of their ships.

I think part of the frustration is that we haven't seen the Amarki actually doing anything yet, while we've been getting explicit reports on what the Apiata have been up to. As the Amarki find their feet in the Expanse, putting them under Ainsworth's command may start to seem less necessary.

Glassware said:
We're not forbidden from pushing the Gretarians. It could potentially push the Sydraxians to try to pull a Bajor on them if we pushed them to 100 admittedly.

And it's generally now agreed that pushing Bajor was a mistake, if only with the benefit of hindsight. Why repeat a mistake after we see how it turned out the first time?

Void Stalker said:
I doubt it, if they tried we could crush them, though that may be better waiting till next year when we have more ships ready plus a better handle on the GBZ, and 3 Excelsiors for general deployment finishing.

We're forbidden by treaty from crushing them. We signed an agreement to leave the Sydraxians alone outside the Gabriel Expanse. What makes you think them formally occupying the Gretarians would release us from that treaty?

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
We're forbidden by treaty from crushing them. We signed an agreement to leave the Sydraxians alone outside the Gabriel Expanse. What makes you think them formally occupying the Gretarians would release us from that treaty?

Applies in reciprocal, though. If we had enough relationship with the Gretarians we could declare them a protectorate. This sounds to me like something we'd need to pair a Sousa Deal with a Diplo Push at the same time.

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Actually the treaty stops the Sydraxians from attacking us outside of the GBZ.

Glassware · Mar 9, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Actually the treaty stops the Sydraxians from attacking us outside of the GBZ.

The treaty makes the Cardassians try to stop the Sydraxians attacking us outside the GBZ. We've put in significant effort to cut off the Sydraxians from the Cardassians, if they decide they don't like being Cardassian clients anymore the Cardassians can't exactly stop them. At which point they become merely a ticking timebomb for us surrounded by our members and affiliates as opposed to part of the Ashalla Pact.

Briefvoice · Mar 9, 2017

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Applies in reciprocal, though. If we had enough relationship with the Gretarians we could declare them a protectorate. This sounds to me like something we'd need to pair a Sousa Deal with a Diplo Push at the same time.

I don't see any Deal as convincing the Council to attempt a move that risky. It could easily wind up unraveling the Treaty of Celos and throwing us into the general war we avoided by the skin of our teeth. Look at how we freaked the hell out when the Cardassians gave the merest hint they were thinking about trying to pry the Orion Union away from us.

Yes the Gretarians aren't technically a Cardassian affiliate, but they're an affiliate-of-an-affiliate and I don't doubt the Cardassians would regard it as an act of war.

Nix · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
And it's generally now agreed that pushing Bajor was a mistake, if only with the benefit of hindsight. Why repeat a mistake after we see how it turned out the first time?

Back then I was among those who pointed out pushing Bajor would be a mistake because the Cardassians would obviously panic over it. I don't see the situation with the Gretarians as even slightly similar in any of the relevant aspects. Learning that particular lesson from the Bajoran matter would be generalizing from the wrong thing, like being afraid of black animals because you were bitten by a black dog. It's possible that approaching another black animal at another time could also be a mistake, but it would have nothing to do with the color.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
I don't see any Deal as convincing the Council to attempt a move that risky. It could easily wind up unraveling the Treaty of Celos and throwing us into the general war we avoided by the skin of our teeth. Look at how we freaked the hell out when the Cardassians gave the merest hint they were thinking about trying to pry the Orion Union away from us.

Yes the Gretarians aren't technically a Cardassian affiliate, but they're an affiliate-of-an-affiliate and I don't doubt the Cardassians would regard it as an act of war.

The Council was willing to posture that way with Bajor during the Celos negotiations. I think they can be persuaded.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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Widow Null

Don't think this means you've won!

a thirsty squirrel

Don't think this means you've won!

a thirsty squirrel