To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Nix · Mar 9, 2017

My snakepit priorities:

Absolute must buys:

Academy Expansion
Officer school if available
SR colonies at Peco Sigma and Castor IV-2

High priority:

Medical tech team if expect to have the RP to activate an extra team.
Two of the three possible BR colonies (to get the pp/rp income asap and to avoid building up a backlog, we only have 4 free colony ships and are researching techs that increase colony site discovery rate and have more active explorers than ever). My picks are Proxima Eridani to alleviate logistic problems (short routes to Vulcan and Sol where most of our ship building industry is) and Ulen Gao VII (chance of triggering events with Laio). Research colony or additional SR colony options might supplant this.
Science Academy.
Betazed Starbase.
Pushes on Gretarians and Yrillans.

This year if possible:

Whatever shipyard options we can fit in.
Possibly the Kepler project (probably want to wait the 2-3 years for T'Koren sickbays and T3 SR sensors first)?
+Other +crew options, maybe even an affiliate recruitment drive e. g. on the Honiani, though I'd like to make sure the bonus doesn't disappear on accession.
Diplomatic push on Ittick-ka.

Within the next few years:

Kepler project.
More academy expansions.
All colony options available.
Constellation refit.
Industrial Park at Sol.
VADM posts.
More shipyard options.
More pushes.

pheonix89 · Mar 9, 2017

I wonder, does the Basilica of Lakhept qualify as an EC-equivalent vessel? Will it start showing up in Captain's Logs like crazy when the Honiani join?

It also occurs to me that the only ships in known space with a shot at 1v1ing the Basilica of Lakhept are Enterprise and Sign of Rethelia. The regular Basilica Class is already Excelsior-level, and the Basilica of Lakhept is half again as large and probably a bit newer. Add in probable crew and captain bonuses on the Basilica of Lakhept and it should have an insane statline even as a generalist, enough to compensate for Enterprise's Elite crew, but probably not enough to guarantee a win. Sign of Rethelia almost certainly has no crew/captain bonuses ATM, but it has a monster statline - Basilica of Lakhept is the only ship that might actually have an equivalent combat statline.

Leila Hann · Mar 9, 2017

pheonix89 said:
I wonder, does the Basilica of Lakhept qualify as an EC-equivalent vessel? Will it start showing up in Captain's Logs like crazy when the Honiani join?

It also occurs to me that the only ships in known space with a shot at 1v1ing the Basilica of Lakhept are Enterprise and Sign of Rethelia. The regular Basilica Class is already Excelsior-level, and the Basilica of Lakhept is half again as large and probably a bit newer. Add in probable crew and captain bonuses on the Basilica of Lakhept and it should have an insane statline even as a generalist, enough to compensate for Enterprise's Elite crew, but probably not enough to guarantee a win. Sign of Rethelia almost certainly has no crew/captain bonuses ATM, but it has a monster statline - Basilica of Lakhept is the only ship that might actually have an equivalent combat statline.

Its not Starfleet, so whatever missions they sent it on wouldn't be our business outside of the MWCO reports.

And yes, Sign of Rethelia and Basilica of Lakhept are the two most heavily armed ships in known space, not counting excelsiors with crew bonuses. They may not be the most formidable combatants overall though, depending on just how tanky that new Klingon battleship turns out to be.

EDIT: come to think of it, the Rigellian megatortoise might also be able to match them sheerly on account of its massive hp column.

Erandil · Mar 9, 2017

Nix said:
Constellation refit.

Would something like that really be worth the effort/resources? I mean from my, admittedly casual, perspective it seems far easier to simply slowly retire those ships and use their crews for rennies etc. since I feel like we are past the point where we need to focus on quantity instead of quality (especially considering our success on the diplomatic front as for example the closer cooperation with the seyek will massively bolster our cardassian front. )

pheonix89 · Mar 9, 2017

Leila Hann said:
Its not Starfleet, so whatever missions they sent it on wouldn't be our business outside of the MWCO reports.

And yes, Sign of Rethelia and Basilica of Lakhept are the two most heavily armed ships in known space, not counting excelsiors with crew bonuses.

Whether or not it's our business is complicated. The Honiani are using the Basilica of Lakhept as an EC-equivalent, and there are apparently some rules in the federation charter about member fleets operating outside of their home sector(s), which will need to be amended.. Now, obviously, it's not going to become a Starfleet ship, but between the odd edge case (member with EC equivalent) and actual mission profile (poke things) I suspect it'll be showing up in a lot of logs - member ships responding to events show in logs, and if the Basilica of Lakhept is garunteed events the same way EC ships are then it'll show up a lot.

I don't want to control the ship, though, I just want to know what that baby is finding and poking.

I do want access to the design teams. Remember, we don't actually have the ability to build berths that large.

Speaking of Federation legalities, thus far Council seats have always roughly corresponded to species. What happens when the Seyek join? They're one affiliate with multiple member species.

Erandil · Mar 9, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Whether or not it's our business is complicated. The Honiani are using the Basilica of Lakhept as an EC-equivalent, and there are apparently some rules in the federation charter about member fleets operating outside of their home sector(s), which will need to be amended.. Now, obviously, it's not going to become a Starfleet ship, but between the odd edge case (member with EC equivalent) and actual mission profile (poke things) I suspect it'll be showing up in a lot of logs - member ships responding to events show in logs, and if the Basilica of Lakhept is guaranteed events the same way EC ships are then it'll show up a lot.

I don't want to control the ship, though, I just want to know what that baby is finding and poking.

I do want access to the design teams. Remember, we don't actually have the ability to build berths that large.

Speaking of Federation legalities, thus far Council seats have always roughly corresponded to species. What happens when the Seyek join? They're one affiliate with multiple member species.

I think it is not them using their ships outside their home territory that is the problem its them using their ships in another fed-members territory without getting the a-okay that is the problem. Explorer actions are generally outside of those so should be that much of a problem. Hell the Gaeni and their tech cruisers happily conduct operations all over the federation with seemingly no issue so I really don't think this is something to worry about.

I also don't think that the multiracial nature of the Seyek is any big problem - just because it seems like race=nationality seems to be case in the majority of the federation there seems very little reason why those things should be necessarily causal connected (Hell over time I fully expect there to be Vulcan's that are sol citizens etc.) .

aeqnai · Mar 9, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Speaking of Federation legalities, thus far Council seats have always roughly corresponded to species. What happens when the Seyek join? They're one affiliate with multiple member species.

You misunderstand, I think. Council seats aren't divided amongst member polities but amongst major worlds. Each individual Seyek and Fiiral planet of note would have its own Councillor, and the minor colonies surrounding them would have a vote in who that Councillor is.

Leila Hann · Mar 9, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Whether or not it's our business is complicated. The Honiani are using the Basilica of Lakhept as an EC-equivalent, and there are apparently some rules in the federation charter about member fleets operating outside of their home sector(s), which will need to be amended.. Now, obviously, it's not going to become a Starfleet ship, but between the odd edge case (member with EC equivalent) and actual mission profile (poke things) I suspect it'll be showing up in a lot of logs - member ships responding to events show in logs, and if the Basilica of Lakhept is garunteed events the same way EC ships are then it'll show up a lot.

I don't want to control the ship, though, I just want to know what that baby is finding and poking.

I do want access to the design teams. Remember, we don't actually have the ability to build berths that large.

Speaking of Federation legalities, thus far Council seats have always roughly corresponded to species. What happens when the Seyek join? They're one affiliate with multiple member species.

I imagine the Honiani would demand the right to keep their own explorers exploring as a condition for joining the Federation. In which case, yes, Lakhept would show up a lot, and would probably forward any information about new species, resources, etc to Starfleet (they would have to agree not to start any colonies in the space they explore without Council permission, or the other members would hit the roof. If they want to keep exploring, it has to be for the Federation's good, not just their own).

Council seats correspond to planets, not species.

Erandil said:
I also don't think that the multiracial nature of the Seyek is any big problem - just because it seems like race=nationality seems to be case in the majority of the federation there seems very little reason why those things should be necessarily causal connected (Hell over time I fully expect there to be Vulcan's that are sol citizens etc.) .

Yep. Rigel with its significant orion minority is a case in point.

Void Stalker · Mar 9, 2017

Erandil said:
Would something like that really be worth the effort/resources? I mean from my, admittedly casual, perspective it seems far easier to simply slowly retire those ships and use their crews for rennies etc. since I feel like we are past the point where we need to focus on quantity instead of quality (especially considering our success on the diplomatic front as for example the closer cooperation with the seyek will massively bolster our cardassian front. )

We have 11 in our member fleets along with 7 of our own, one of which has an experience level.

Nix · Mar 9, 2017

Erandil said:
Would something like that really be worth the effort/resources? I mean from my, admittedly casual, perspective it seems far easier to simply slowly retire those ships and use their crews for rennies etc. since I feel like we are past the point where we need to focus on quantity instead of quality (especially considering our success on the diplomatic front as for example the closer cooperation with the seyek will massively bolster our cardassian front. )

The refit only costs 18pp, and our members still have a lot of of Constellations (and they aren't going to retire them no matter what, they are only now scrapping their Soyuzes), so the refit would easily be worth it for those alone. I suspect they might actually build more Constellation-As when that becomes an option, they are a lot cheaper than the Renaissance (roughly 2/3 the cost). The cruiser variant increases all stats except P and the resource cost and berth time shouldn't be much of an issue, so I think it would be worthwhile to refit our own Constellations before mothballing them as well, reasonably up-to-date mothballed ships that can be rapidly reactivated in case of war are an excellent way to mitigate the disadvantage our combat limit gives us relative to other powers (once we are combat limited we will start to build up a crew reserve so crewing them in a war shouldn't be an issue either). And I actually expect to get a few years of service out of at least some of them before being mothballed, we aren't very close to the combat limit yet.

Goat · Mar 9, 2017

Erandil said:
Would something like that really be worth the effort/resources? I mean from my, admittedly casual, perspective it seems far easier to simply slowly retire those ships and use their crews for rennies etc. since I feel like we are past the point where we need to focus on quantity instead of quality (especially considering our success on the diplomatic front as for example the closer cooperation with the seyek will massively bolster our cardassian front. )

Refitting our Constellations is useful, but secondary, goal. As we have 7 of them.
Our members have another 11, if I am recalling correctly, so the refit option is primarily for them to use.

Leila Hann · Mar 9, 2017

Goat said:
Refitting our Constellations is useful, but secondary, goal. As we have 7 of them.
Our members have another 11, if I am recalling correctly, so the refit option is primarily for them to use.

If that's the case, maybe we should be the ones asking them which style of refit they prefer.

Night · Mar 9, 2017

Nix said:
and only the basic framework of an event is rolled

So the dice still matter and we may not get any diplomacy events there period and the rest of this is just a cleverly constructed but ultimately futile cover for it. Many of the events involving multiple contacts with Explorer Corps ships have been for fairly large species like the Apiata, cases where they would end up spending time traversing their space, something we have no assurance of. There are also other possibilities out in that direction.

Erandil said:
Would something like that really be worth the effort/resources? I mean from my, admittedly casual, perspective it seems far easier to simply slowly retire those ships and use their crews for rennies etc. since I feel like we are past the point where we need to focus on quantity instead of quality (especially considering our success on the diplomatic front as for example the closer cooperation with the seyek will massively bolster our cardassian front. )

It would be good to make them more useful...but on the other hand there is a question of how many of them we can actually pull off the line. They're holding down a lot of sectors on their own since their stats make them marginally more useful as event responders.

@Briefvoice, can we actually afford to pull Constellations off the line for refit if we buy it?

chriswriter90 · Mar 9, 2017

On the diplomacy front, I'd prefer to double down on the Yan-Ros.

We can set up a supply line from Earth to Rigel to Yan-Ros and then advance into the GBZ via E-4, flanking the Sydraxians and opposing the Dylaarians.

Nervos Belli · Mar 9, 2017

For those worried about the combat cap, remember we are in all likelihood going to be at war soon. Unless things go spectacularly well for us, we're going to lose a fair number of ships. I don't think we'll hit the cap before the end of the decade, possibly not until around 2028 or so. War in this game is designed to be painful and difficult to replenish losses from.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
Here's my draft Sousa deal for the Snakepit, unless something big shows up this quarter.

[ ][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. We have two problems. One is pro-Cardassian leanings among the Yrillians that would likely have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war, and the other is Starfleet's current transport crunch. Why not solve one problem with another? Hire some Yrillain freighters and cargo ships for a few years until the shipping crunch is eased, and leverage it to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians.

I would like to see a somewhat more general deal phrased in terms of the diplomatic effect. A more general deal would also let any people who have bright ideas on how to align more Yrillians put them forth. Something like the following:

[ ][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which has the side benefit of helping our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

I see it much less as an exchange (the purely cargo deal) and a full Hearts and Minds campaign.

Plus, I may write an omake about a Yrillian comedy troupe doing a Fed-sponsored tour if it goes through

pbluekan · Mar 9, 2017

@Nix I think that Betazed star base should be must have, given we accepted a deal to push it though. I'd rather not see the fallout from reneging on that deal.

chriswriter90 · Mar 9, 2017

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I would like to see a somewhat more general deal phrased in terms of the diplomatic effect. A more general deal would also let any people who have bright ideas on how to align more Yrillians put them forth. Something like the following:

[ ][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which has the side benefit of helping our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

I see it much less as an exchange (the purely cargo deal) and a full Hearts and Minds campaign.

Plus, I may write an omake about a Yrillian comedy troupe doing a Fed-sponsored tour if it goes through

I donno. This plan sounds like it suits the Mercantile faction better than the Expansionists.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Mar 9, 2017

chriswriter90 said:
I donno. This plan sounds like it suits the Mercantile faction better than the Expansionists.

Then approach the Mercantilists. Or the Pacificsts. Everyone but the Hawks would buy this, Development might oppose it for political reasons but it helps them too.

Briefvoice · Mar 9, 2017

Night said:
@Briefvoice, can we actually afford to pull Constellations off the line for refit if we buy it?

Our main problem right now is that we're throwing every available ship at the Gabriel Expanse. If not for that, we'd be quite healthy Defense-wise.

If we did buy the Constellation cruiser refit, it takes 6 turns to become available. So if we order it in 2314.Q2, we could start refitting Constellations in 2315.Q4. If we order it in the 2315 Snakepit, then 2316.Q4. I had tentatively penciled in some Constellation refits starting as soon as 2316.Q3, but it would be no big deal to push them back 1 quarter.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I would like to see a somewhat more general deal phrased in terms of the diplomatic effect. A more general deal would also let any people who have bright ideas on how to align more Yrillians put them forth. Something like the following:

[ ][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which has the side benefit of helping our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

I basically like it, though I'd prefer to push the 'alleviate our shipping crunch' a bit harder rather than a "by the way". That's an important part of this.

For reference, here is the Yrillian civilian fleet as reported by Intelligence.

30~40 Civilian Ships
20~25 Cargo Ships
~10 Freighters
3 Passenger
4 Engineering
2 Prospector
1 Colony Ship
1 Hospital Ship
3 Research Cruisers

That is actually quite a lot of cargo ships for a minor power. For reference, none of our Members has more than 25 cargo ships (and that's the Apiata). Number of freighters seems more normal, though the Carryalls may act as freighters as well.

I can never remember the difference between cargo ships and freighters. I know one carries raw materials and one carries refined items, but I don't know which is which.

Nix · Mar 9, 2017

Night said:
@Briefvoice, can we actually afford to pull Constellations off the line for refit if we buy it?

If we request the refit 2314 (we almost certainly won't be able to fit it in this year) we wouldn't start any of the refits until 2316, when the first wave of Renaissances completes, so that's not an issue.

Nervos Belli said:
For those worried about the combat cap, remember we are in all likelihood going to be at war soon. Unless things go spectacularly well for us, we're going to lose a fair number of ships. I don't think we'll hit the cap before the end of the decade, possibly not until around 2028 or so. War in this game is designed to be painful and difficult to replenish losses from.

We aren't going to reach the cap this decade even if we stay at peace, we'd have a hard time reaching even the current 350 combat (unless we spam Miranda-As), and there are new doctrine discounts and new accessions coming up before then.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
I basically like it, though I'd prefer to push the 'alleviate our shipping crunch' a bit harder rather than a "by the way". That's an important part of this.

[ ][FACTION] Approach the Expansionists. Doubtless they have heard of pro-Cardassian leanings among some Yrillians that would have them siding with the Sydraxians in the event of a general war. We would like to begin an outreach program to show ordinary Yrillian work gangs how working with the Federation aligns with their interests. Start perhaps by hiring Yrillian cargo, which would also alleviate our shipping crunch, but other basic ideas include survey or prospecting work, space construction, exchange of goods, sponsoring entertainment tours, or hiring shipyards for civilian projects. Any sort of win-win arrangements we can offer to increase pro-Federation sentiment among the Yrillians at large.

Something like that?

Goat · Mar 9, 2017

Just comparing the proposed GBZ deployment with the Intel report of what they have bought to the table.

2 Kaldar
6~7 Jaldun
7~9 Escort Grade

2314.Q4 - 2 Excelsiors (12) [Kumari, Avandar], 6 Constitution-B (30) [Korolev, Republic, Valiant, Defiant, new Ana Font build #1, Saratoga], 1 Constellation (3) [Challorn], 7 Miranda-A (14) [Fidelity, Shield, T'Kumbra, Bon Vivant, new 40E builds #1, #2, and #3] = 68 C

I certainly expect us to have taken losses preventing this deployment as it is, but in the minute case where this actually gets deployed and open warfare between the fleets has still not broken out:
(always assuming the worst case on Intel numbers, so 7 Jalduns and 9 Escorts but also assuming no reinforcements - which is highly unlikely)
Our Excelsiors are certainly better than the Kaldars (which are basically Jalduns with +1C, as I understand it)
Our Connie-Bs are roughly equal 1v1 with the Jalduns - they have a small numeric advantage.
The Cardassians have a range of Escorts and we have no break down or sightings yet to determine types. But unless they all their best combat frigates, our Miranda-As should at least be able to trade evenly with them. And Challorn certainly should be better than any single Cardassian Escort.

In a mass fleet on fleet murder ball, I think it still slightly favours the Cardassians due to number of hulls (16 vs 18), but it is close enough that only a desperate Admiral on either side would force the fight.
So I would expect skirmishing, trying to isolate a ship or two and eliminate them before falling back etc, rather than a 'frontal all in assault' to be the standard operation posture of both sides.

Now if the Syndraxians sneak the remains of their fleet around us and join up, and the other Cardassian affiliate goes all in, Starfleet alone is toast - but by then we will have the Apatia, the Amarki and possibly a few other members flying around the zone as well ....

Leila Hann · Mar 9, 2017

Goat said:
Just comparing the proposed GBZ deployment with the Intel report of what they have bought to the table.

I certainly expect us to have taken losses preventing this deployment as it is, but in the minute case where this actually gets deployed and open warfare between the fleets has still not broken out:
Our Excelsiors are certainly better t
(always assuming the worst case on Intel numbers, so 7 Jalduns and 9 Escorts)
han the Kaldars (which are basically Jalduns with +1C, as I understand it)
Our Connie-Bs are roughly equal 1v1 with the Jalduns - they have a small numeric advantage.
The Cardassians have a range of Escorts and we have no break down or sightings yet to determine types. But unless they all their best combat frigates, our Miranda-As should at least be able to trade evenly with them. And Challorn certainly should be better than any single Cardassian Escort.

In a mass fleet on fleet murder ball, I think it still slightly favours the Cardassians due to number of hulls (16 vs 18), but it is close enough that only a desperate Admiral on either side would force the fight.
So I would expect skirmishing, trying to isolate a ship or two and eliminate them before falling back etc, rather than a 'frontal all in assault' to be the standard operation posture of both sides.

Now if the Syndraxians sneak the remains of their fleet around us and join up, and the other Cardassian affiliate goes all in, Starfleet alone is toast - but by then we will have the Apatia, the Amarki and possibly a few other members flying around the zone as well ....

This is why we wanted to get the Sydraxians out of the way quickly. So that we and the Apiata could gang up on the Cardassians without having to worry about being flanked.

Too bad those kalindraxes got away...

lbmaian · Mar 9, 2017

Briefvoice said:
I'd rather keep the Gale in Rigel. We're currently trying to corral a lot of low-rank affiliates and near-affiliates there, with new First Contacts possible at any time. Gale has been doing a lot of valuable Event response there. I'd rather keep a blooded Centaur-A on duty in that frontier over bringing it back for a mildly higher chance of passing a few anti-Syndicate checks.

Eh...fair enough.

Erandil said:
Would something like that really be worth the effort/resources? I mean from my, admittedly casual, perspective it seems far easier to simply slowly retire those ships and use their crews for rennies etc. since I feel like we are past the point where we need to focus on quantity instead of quality (especially considering our success on the diplomatic front as for example the closer cooperation with the seyek will massively bolster our cardassian front. )

If it was just Starfleet alone, then I'd be very on the fence on it. The combination of it:
a) competing in the same niche as the Renaissance (combat-focused light cruiser)
b) non-trivial resource costs
c) refit time actually taking longer than scrapping one to help crew a Renaissance a year before its launch
d) still high crew reqs
makes scrapping them for Renaissance arguably cost effective and timely.

It's the fact that the member fleets still have 11 Constellations that tips the scales in favor of the refit. They don't have as many resources to replace their Constellations with Renaissances.

If 1H could be traded for 1P, or even 1C traded for another 1S or 1P, then it would help fill a niche that we currently lack: garrison frigate/light-cruiser optimized for event response. Centaur-A makes a passable attempt at fulfilling it, but a Constellation-A S3+ P3+ D4 would be an improvement over that. Kepler would fill that role better, but that's not going to be available for mass production until turn of the decade if that.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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