To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Night · Feb 24, 2017

Erandil said:
Didn't we already spend endless pages discussing why it is a a bad idea to let people remain in the same (leadership) position for lengthy amounts of time - especially in a (semi-) military organization? Because I am pretty sure we did. It encourages all sort of bad behaviour which is why most administrations do try to minimize it...

Not applicable, for several reasons. The Nash discussion centered on her A: being still promotable and B: the fact she made the Council's teeth itch. Seruk has very much reached the pinnacle of his profession or nearly so; his only promotion opportunity left is if we make his position a Vice Admiral one or literally everyone between him and Commander, Starfleet dies suddenly. Nash had a career left; Seruk doesn't. We lost PP if we kept Nash in place; we lose PP to move Seruk. Nash's way of doing things could conceivably become stale and inapplicable to the outside world; Seruk exists inside the bureaucracy of Starfleet where change is slower and less likely to be forced. I can go on if you like?

Briefvoice · Feb 24, 2017

AlphaDelta said:
Sure, replacing him would give a bonus, but so would conversion.

By the way, I sincerely hope that if there were an option to make Personnel into a Vice Admiral position then Seruk wouldn't automatically get promoted but rather we would get to vote on candidates for the position like usual, with him maybe or maybe not being one of those candidates.

Nervos Belli · Feb 24, 2017

Night said:
Not applicable, for several reasons. The Nash discussion centered on her A: being still promotable and B: the fact she made the Council's teeth itch. Seruk has very much reached the pinnacle of his profession or nearly so; his only promotion opportunity left is if we make his position a Vice Admiral one or literally everyone between him and Commander, Starfleet dies suddenly. Nash had a career left; Seruk doesn't. We lost PP if we kept Nash in place; we lose PP to move Seruk. Nash's way of doing things could conceivably become stale and inapplicable to the outside world; Seruk exists inside the bureaucracy of Starfleet where change is slower and less likely to be forced. I can go on if you like?

Yes, Seruk has likely reached the pinnacle of his career. And while he's there, no one else is capable of filling that spot. Literally anyone we replace him with will be better because they'll provide a mechanical benefit. Everyone's career ends at some point. There's no reason to keep him around besides not being able to afford the 20pp to get rid of him.

Void Stalker · Feb 24, 2017

Briefvoice said:
By the way, I sincerely hope that if there were an option to make Personnel into a Vice Admiral position then Seruk wouldn't automatically get promoted but rather we would get to vote on candidates for the position like usual, with him maybe or maybe not being one of those candidates.

Honestly this is the option I want, to be able to make personnel a vice Admiral slot with the option to chose Seruk.

Briefvoice · Feb 24, 2017

Night said:
Seruk has very much reached the pinnacle of his profession or nearly so; his only promotion opportunity left is if we make his position a Vice Admiral one or literally everyone between him and Commander, Starfleet dies suddenly.

This is sort of true, but also not true. While Vice Admiral is the only higher rank to go to, a lot of Rear Admirals seems to extend their careers by shuffling around between different positions. Going to run Utopia Planitia or a Rear Admiral post in the research division wouldn't technically be a promotion as such, but it would serve the purpose of keeping a single high level leadership position from getting stale with someone holding it for t0o long.

You seem to think I have something against Seruk as a character, but I'd have no trouble at all putting him in charge of a Starbase or something. I just think having one guy in charge of Personnel for decades is maybe a bad idea.

Erandil · Feb 24, 2017

Night said:
Not applicable, for several reasons. The Nash discussion centered on her A: being still promotable and B: the fact she made the Council's teeth itch. Seruk has very much reached the pinnacle of his profession or nearly so; his only promotion opportunity left is if we make his position a Vice Admiral one or literally everyone between him and Commander, Starfleet dies suddenly. Nash had a career left; Seruk doesn't. We lost PP if we kept Nash in place; we lose PP to move Seruk. Nash's way of doing things could conceivably become stale and inapplicable to the outside world; Seruk exists inside the bureaucracy of Starfleet where change is slower and less likely to be forced. I can go on if you like?

If this really is the pinnacle of his career than the natural consequence would be for him to retire... It doesn't change the fact that it is generally unhealthy for an organisation like Starfleet to let people remain in such a influential position for too long.

Night · Feb 24, 2017

Erandil said:
If this really is the pinnacle of his career than the natural consequence would be for him to retire... It doesn't change the fact that it is generally unhealthy for an organisation like Starfleet to let people remain in such a influential position for too long.

If this were an obvious universal truth the Vulcans wouldn't have had warp tech before humanity did. Someone remaining in place for thirty years is normal to Seruk's reality. He's a Vulcan. They live into their two hundreds and don't frantically change jobs the whole time, instead typically finding a position they feel suitable and sticking with it. Long-lived and long-serving demonstrably does not equate to stagnant here. You can argue this all you want but it's very doubtful it matches up with the reality of Star Trek. Hell, TNG was reasonably explicit there were human admirals with twenty years in their jobs during the Bluegill outing. Picard was a captain for at least fifteen years counting Stargazer and the movies.

The negative reasons to worry about Seruk, that he's empire-building or the like, are ones we just don't have reason to believe. Nothing Onerios has said makes them sound likely.

Briefvoice · Feb 24, 2017

Night said:
If this were an obvious universal truth the Vulcans wouldn't have had warp tech before humanity did. Someone remaining in place for thirty years is normal to Seruk's reality. He's a Vulcan. They live into their two hundreds and don't frantically change jobs the whole time, instead typically finding a position they feel suitable and sticking with it.

The other Vulcan characters in To Boldly Go seem to change positions often enough. Hell, I can even point you at a Vulcan Rear Admiral who failed to be promoted to Vice Admiral and retired within the span of this game. (He was the guy who was running Research right before we made it a Vice Admiral position.) So no, I have to contradict you on "remaining in place for thirty years is normal to Seruk's reality". That does not match the behavior of other Vulcans we see in Starfleet.

Night · Feb 24, 2017

Briefvoice said:
The other Vulcan characters in To Boldly Go seem to change positions often enough. Hell, I can even point you at a Vulcan Rear Admiral who failed to be promoted to Vice Admiral and retired within the span of this game. (He was the guy who was running Research right before we made it a Vice Admiral position.) So no, I have to contradict you on "remaining in place for thirty years is normal to Seruk's reality". That does not match the behavior of other Vulcans we see in Starfleet.

The other Vulcan characters with the one exception you outline have no reason we know of to stop moving upward. We've yet to encounter a Captain aside from the Nash who didn't want to be a Commodore, or a Commodore who didn't want to be a Rear Admiral, whereas it's pretty clear Seruk has no intention of going anywhere at the moment.

ClawClawBite · Feb 24, 2017

Briefvoice said:
This is sort of true, but also not true. While Vice Admiral is the only higher rank to go to, a lot of Rear Admirals seems to extend their careers by shuffling around between different positions. Going to run Utopia Planitia or a Rear Admiral post in the research division wouldn't technically be a promotion as such, but it would serve the purpose of keeping a single high level leadership position from getting stale with someone holding it for t0o long.

You seem to think I have something against Seruk as a character, but I'd have no trouble at all putting him in charge of a Starbase or something. I just think having one guy in charge of Personnel for decades is maybe a bad idea.

I wonder how he would do as Ambassador to the Dewar? They like old as dirt, they like military, he has great credentials for the position.

Mr Tebbs · Feb 24, 2017

Briefvoice said:
So really there's not much of any good argument for not getting rid of him other than "you think the character is really cool" or "have higher priorities for 20pp this Snakepit".

to be fair, 20 pp has bought us 1mt berths before, or 2 diplo pushes, or 2 mining colonies. I have a hard time imagining what a new RA of personnel can offer us that any of the above couldn't. Then again, I am demonstrably uncreative, given my rather large streak of lurking in this thread so....

Briefvoice said:
By the way, I sincerely hope that if there were an option to make Personnel into a Vice Admiral position then Seruk wouldn't automatically get promoted but rather we would get to vote on candidates for the position like usual, with him maybe or maybe not being one of those candidates.

I'd totes get behind this, especially if we can do this for less than 20 pp. Hell, it makes a lot of sense IC b/c starfleet has doubled in size, and should have its head of hiring and promotion* have a rank to reflect that fact

*Human resources can die in a fire... that sort of inhumane thinking is what's wrong w/ corporate culture in america these days. I am not a resource to be used up, I am a goddamned sapient you frakking peons /rant

Forgothrax · Feb 24, 2017

Night said:
The other Vulcan characters with the one exception you outline have no reason we know of to stop moving upward. We've yet to encounter a Captain aside from the Nash who didn't want to be a Commodore, or a Commodore who didn't want to be a Rear Admiral, whereas it's pretty clear Seruk has no intention of going anywhere at the moment.

However, according to the rules post..

OneirosTheWriter said:
Up or Out : With the number of officers coming through, and the limited number of spaces, eventually officers who cannot achieve promotions are squeezed out. The biggest bottleneck is the one that lies between Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral. Positions will open up as other officers retire, get promotions/reassignments of their own.

Nix · Feb 24, 2017

Briefvoice said:
The other Vulcan characters in To Boldly Go seem to change positions often enough. Hell, I can even point you at a Vulcan Rear Admiral who failed to be promoted to Vice Admiral and retired within the span of this game. (He was the guy who was running Research right before we made it a Vice Admiral position.) So no, I have to contradict you on "remaining in place for thirty years is normal to Seruk's reality". That does not match the behavior of other Vulcans we see in Starfleet.

Sanik didn't retire, he just moved to another Rear Admiral position and was available for the VA Chief of Staff position recently.

Night · Feb 24, 2017

Forgothrax said:
However, according to the rules post..

If we had an actual up or out policy then it'd explicitly say "x years in grade at this level and you secure promotion or we retire you".

Assuming it even applied to flag officers, which Up or Out policies usually don't; the most often apply to enlisted and field-grade officers.

Simon_Jester · Feb 24, 2017

Vehrec said:
I take it 'Superfreighters' aren't on the Federation's build-list?

We're trying to move lots of different items around to lots of different places. Given the limited numbers of freighters we have in total, superfreighters probably aren't a very economical idea for us. They can only be in one place at one time, and there will be a lot of destinations they can't serve profitably.

All things considered, I'd much rather have four half-megaton freighters than one two-megaton freighter, unless there's some specific item we need delivered that requires the two-megaton freighter just to carry it.

Briefvoice said:
Because he doesn't give us a bonus and because we will thereafter be able to have Personnel turn where we have greater control over who gets appointed to the Explorer Corps board of captains. (Or at least, that was what Oneiros had in mind at the beginning of the quest.)

I'm not sure that's something we need badly enough to justify the loss of flavor we'd experience from dropping Old Father Time. Plus, I'm not sure the 20pp investment is really worth it, especially as we come out of a few years of political will being tight with a bunch of deferred projects to think about.

UberJJK · Feb 24, 2017

Mr Tebbs said:
I have a hard time imagining what a new RA of personnel can offer us that any of the above couldn't.

Increased Explorer Corps standards (all EC ships start at Blooded)
Improved recruitment advertisements (Increased crew recruitment rates)
Allows selection of non-EC Captains (regular ships get captain's bonuses like the EC)
Enhanced post-mission debriefings (faster experience gains for ships)
Faster crewing schedules (Ships need to be crewed -X Quarters later)

That's just five I thought of off the top of my head. There are many possibilities that will easily be worth 20pp. Hell even if it's just a generic "+X pp/year" we'd pay off that 20pp pretty damn fast.

Void Stalker · Feb 24, 2017

1, 2 and 4 are the most likely. 3 would be too much to keep track of it feel.

Forgothrax · Feb 24, 2017

Night said:
If we had an actual up or out policy then it'd explicitly say "x years in grade at this level and you secure promotion or we retire you".

Assuming it even applied to flag officers, which Up or Out policies usually don't; the most often apply to enlisted and field-grade officers.

... please reread the quote again and think hard about the last part of your post.

And while I doubt it's official, it's an unofficial policy to the point Oneiros put it in the rules. It's safe to say that Seruk should be subject to this at some point. Only his Old Guard status is likely what's keeping him in play.

Nix · Feb 24, 2017

By the way, I looked it up out of curiosity and the US Navy does have a VADM Chief of Naval Personnel, this guy. The US Navy also has multiple full Admirals and somewhat more Vice Admirals than we do, however.

Simon_Jester · Feb 24, 2017

I'm just going to admit it. I like the idea of Seruk staying even as the rest of Starfleet moves around him- the single fixed point.

Mr Tebbs · Feb 24, 2017

UberJJK said:
Increased Explorer Corps standards (all EC ships start at Blooded)

Improved recruitment advertisements (Increased crew recruitment rates)

Allows selection of non-EC Captains (regular ships get captain's bonuses like the EC)

Enhanced post-mission debriefings (faster experience gains for ships)

Faster crewing schedules (Ships need to be crewed -X Quarters later)

That's just five I thought of off the top of my head. There are many possibilities that will easily be worth 20pp. Hell even if it's just a generic "+X pp/year" we'd pay off that 20pp pretty damn fast.

As I freely admitted, I am a hard lurker. therefore uncreative

AlphaDelta · Feb 24, 2017

Forgothrax said:
And while I doubt it's official, it's an unofficial policy to the point Oneiros put it in the rules. It's safe to say that Seruk should be subject to this at some point. Only his Old Guard status is likely what's keeping him in play.

Nah.

The only promotion he can get is for a VADM slot - he already directly reports to Commander, Starfleet.
And if the Admiral and the Council are intelligent, which they are, they will value continuity. He can patiently wait until Starfleet is big enough for a VADM Personnel slot.

UberJJK · Feb 24, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Plus, I'm not sure the 20pp investment is really worth it, especially as we come out of a few years of political will being tight with a bunch of deferred projects to think about.

Now I'm not sure it will be something we do next year, or even the year after, but that's just a matter of timing. Replacing Seruk is almost certainly with that 20pp investment. Just look at the other bonuses we get:

Starfleet Commander (Admiral) = More opportunities to cut deals with Council and at cheaper costs
- Chief of Staff (Vice Admiral) = +4 to Diplomacy Results
- Chief of Starfleet Operations (Vice Admiral) = +3pt to Doctrine/Analysis Research
- Starfleet Ship Design Bureau (Vice Admiral) = all techs under the Ship Design or Ship Construction areas gain +2 research
- Starfleet Tactical (Vice Admiral) = +2pp per active FYM
  - Starfleet Explorer Corps (Rear Admiral) = +10pp/year
  - Starfleet Shipyard Operations (Rear Admiral) = Parallel builds go faster
  - Starfleet Academy Commandant (Rear Admiral) = +0.5 Tech/0.25 Exp Tech
  - Starfleet Intelligence (Rear Admiral) = Gain better counter-espionage

I'd say most, if not all, of those are worth around 20pp.

Mr Tebbs · Feb 24, 2017

mayhaps, but the more I think about it, the more I think personnel is worth of being a VA position in its own right. how many fold has starfleet's.... fleet grown in the past decade? we've created VA positions for much less

UberJJK · Feb 24, 2017

Mr Tebbs said:
mayhaps, but the more I think about it, the more I think personnel is worth of being a VA position in its own right. how many fold has starfleet's.... fleet grown in the past decade? we've created VA positions for much less

Maybe it is but currently it's just not an option. The only options for new VA positions as per:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 20pp for Starfleet Intelligence, 30pp for Medical, 30pp for Explorer Corps.

are Intelligence, Medical, and the Explorer Corps.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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