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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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aledeth said:
Yep. I don't think it's a good use of our time right now. I think poking the Kadeshi so we can hopefully get an idea of where they are going is more important at the moment, but Mixed Plans isn't doing that, so...
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Aren't you worried about the delay to our Explorer Corps ships from Nix's plan? The reason I don't want to poke the Kadeshi is that isn't not going to stop them from heading far away from our space to where we might not encounter them for decades. It seems like a waste of an action. Yes we might "know where they are" (or at least where they think they're going) but so what if they're so far away we can't do further diplomacy with them?

At least the Betazoids leave us with some tangible progress. The Kadeshi action does nothing really.
 
We should be making a diplomatic push on the Kadeshi whilst they are still favourable to us and it might be possible for them to become affiliates or full members.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
We should be making a diplomatic push on the Kadeshi whilst they are still favourable to us and it might be possible for them to become affiliates or full members.
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But they're leaving. It takes years of diplomacy actions to turn someone into an affiliate, much less a full member, and they're specifically leaving our space to look for their new Preserver-ordained Garden World. They will never have any possibility of becoming affiliates/members until the Federation expands far enough geographically to find their world again. Were you thinking that a diplomatic push action can change that?

A little worried people are having unrealistic expectations of what diplomatic push can accomplish. "Know where they're heading" sure, probably, even if the action doesn't specifically do that. Bump them to affiliate status? Not doable.
 
Briefvoice said:
But they're leaving. It takes years of diplomacy actions to turn someone into an affiliate, much less a full member, and they're specifically leaving our space to look for their new Preserver-ordained Garden World. They will never have any possibility of becoming affiliates/members until the Federation expands far enough geographically to find their world again. Were you thinking that a diplomatic push action can change that?

A little worried people are having unrealistic expectations of what diplomatic push can accomplish. "Know where they're heading" sure, probably, even if the action doesn't specifically do that. Bump them to affiliate status? Not doable.
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they are 25/100 for potential affiliation member ship. I don't know what the benefits from the push diplomacy action are but it's worth pursuing just on the off chance of it allowing us to persue again in the future. Their industrial tech is miraculous by our standard even if it's not fully compatible with fed tech it's worth courting them.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
they are 25/100 for potential affiliation member ship. I don't know what the benefits from the push diplomacy action are but it's worth pursuing just on the off chance of it allowing us to persue again in the future. Their industrial tech is miraculous by our standard even if it's not fully compatible with fed tech it's worth courting them.
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I assume it's the equivalent of a standard year's diplomacy, which is a -10 to 30 range roll. So not likely to get us anywhere. I'm not all that impressed by their technology either. Doesn't seem particularly compatible with ours.
 
Briefvoice said:
Aren't you worried about the delay to our Explorer Corps ships from Nix's plan? The reason I don't want to poke the Kadeshi is that isn't not going to stop them from heading far away from our space to where we might not encounter them for decades. It seems like a waste of an action. Yes we might "know where they are" (or at least where they think they're going) but so what if they're so far away we can't do further diplomacy with them?

At least the Betazoids leave us with some tangible progress. The Kadeshi action does nothing really.
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And what if it isn't super far away? Yes, it's a speculative action, but it's one that I want to do.

Would I be happier if Nix was also grabbing a shipyard for faster repairs? Yes. But, between the two, I want Kadeshi diplomacy more than the borrowed shipyard.
 
I honestly don't think Kadeshi are all that interested to be a part of any interstellar society right now, given what happened, and that said societies are indirectly responsible for what happened. To be blunt, I think it's too soon for them. If we're going to induct more people, we should focus on those we've already had track on, like Betazeds or Amaraki.

That aside, I was considering something for the future - the time it took us to mobilize, and the losses we've suffered makes me think that we should consider a Starfleet Command Solution.

To clarify, in Starfleet Command series of games (the TOS era ones) Starfleet did in fact maintain a reserve of heavy purpose-built warships like Dreadnoughts. These ships were not normally used, but were kept around just "in case" of some sort emergency or war that Federation couldn't avoid.

I think we should seriously consider doing the same thing. Now, I know that someone on the Council might flip over this, but I think in light of how horrific Biophage crisis turned out, we could probably still sell it on number of points:

- Biophage demonstrates that there are things you can't reason with, and it's better to have ship hulls on hand and not need them, then to find yourself in a situation where you need them and don't have them.

- Optimally, this is going to be a reserve force. Ideally it will stay in a nice mothball glass case, while Starfleet goes and does...Starfleet-y things.

- It can further be made into a sort of "emergency" fleet, which can only be activated by the Council in times of emergency, thus limiting the fears that such a fleet can be misused, or Federation is somehow "militarizing". As I've said before though, it's better to have these things on hand and not need them than...

- Andorians will love this

- At the very least, it will leave us with a reserve of hulls we can use if our regular forces suffer some sort of catastrophic encounter


At the very least we should consider building more Excelsiors, considering some form of refit and expanding our industrial capacity.
I'd also be totally willing to do Section 31 omake on this :V



Also, oh yeah, the vote:
[X] Plan Merged Plans
 
Briefvoice said:
But they're leaving. It takes years of diplomacy actions to turn someone into an affiliate, much less a full member, and they're specifically leaving our space to look for their new Preserver-ordained Garden World. They will never have any possibility of becoming affiliates/members until the Federation expands far enough geographically to find their world again. Were you thinking that a diplomatic push action can change that?

A little worried people are having unrealistic expectations of what diplomatic push can accomplish. "Know where they're heading" sure, probably, even if the action doesn't specifically do that. Bump them to affiliate status? Not doable.
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The area we have fully explored is a tiny fraction of the area we could easily maintain diplomatic contact with (we only recently discovered the Amarki and they are close enough for us to contact them and them to send a ship all across our space to the opposite side all inside a month), and that in turn is a tiny fraction of the area we could maintain some sort of loose diplomatic contact with through significant effort (year or two of travel time). Unless they are intending to travel for decades their new home will likely at least be in the latter area. Improving warp technology will subsequently make it easier.

And while I'm not exactly counting on affiliate status it doesn't seem completely beyond the realm of possibility either.
 
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Briefvoice said:
But they're leaving. It takes years of diplomacy actions to turn someone into an affiliate, much less a full member, and they're specifically leaving our space to look for their new Preserver-ordained Garden World. They will never have any possibility of becoming affiliates/members until the Federation expands far enough geographically to find their world again. Were you thinking that a diplomatic push action can change that?

A little worried people are having unrealistic expectations of what diplomatic push can accomplish. "Know where they're heading" sure, probably, even if the action doesn't specifically do that. Bump them to affiliate status? Not doable.
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The Federation is already made of discontinuous bubbles of space, some of which are thousands of light years from Sol.

Having the Kadeshi as distant affiliates wouldn't be a great change.

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
The Federation is already made of discontinuous bubbles of space, some of which are thousands of light years from Sol.

Having the Kadeshi as distant affiliates wouldn't be a great change.

fasquardon
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Not really necessarily in this quest (or even in canon, considering Star Trek mapping is a notoriously inexact science). We seem to actually have a Federation limited mostly to the assets of the four founding races plus a small amount extra; much of the space TNG's Federation claimed is far from our grasp. Remember, in DS9 Betazed was considered to be really fucking close to the heart of the Federation, and the Dominion's attack on it a sign that defeat was imminent. Here, we don't even have Betazed yet.
 
Briefvoice said:
I assume it's the equivalent of a standard year's diplomacy, which is a -10 to 30 range roll. So not likely to get us anywhere. I'm not all that impressed by their technology either. Doesn't seem particularly compatible with ours.
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Industrial scale replication of low-tech ship components seems like it can integrate with almost any tech base. Even if it was just the hull & frame of the ship that could be replicated, that's still a significant time-saver.

Mechanically, I'd guess integrating that tech would give us a reduction to construction times, and possibly Bulk Resource discounts too.

Even without all those bonuses? There's only a few hundred thousand of them left. I don't want to see them go off into the void alone where who-knows-what could find and eat/enslave them.
 
@OneirosTheWriter Apologies if this has been asked before, but what program do you use to roll this? I can imagine this kind of automation opening up some game possibilities for other quest-runners that weren't possible previous. Some of my games have failed for the complexity of rolling combat.
 
Alastor Mobius Toth said:
That aside, I was considering something for the future - the time it took us to mobilize, and the losses we've suffered makes me think that we should consider a Starfleet Command Solution.

To clarify, in Starfleet Command series of games (the TOS era ones) Starfleet did in fact maintain a reserve of heavy purpose-built warships like Dreadnoughts. These ships were not normally used, but were kept around just "in case" of some sort emergency or war that Federation couldn't avoid.
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We can sort of do this already. @OneirosTheWriter has indicated that we have the ability to "mothball" ships instead of scrapping them, so theoretically we could build, say, Centaurs, and then immediately mothball them until needed. The difficulty being that these aren't ships that could instantly be brought on line. Remember that the custom is for a crew to shake out on a new ship for a full year before it's actually brought into service. While a state of emergency would no doubt bring that down, it would likely still require some months (and crew) to bring them into operation.

As for "purpose-built warships" we can do that too if we want... but you've seen the discussion regarding how much research time it takes for a new ship design. Kind of hard to justify doing that for a ship we don't even plan on using regularly and then continue to pour resources into ships that we aren't going to use regularly. We would only want to do it if we were so far ahead on ships that we want that we've hit our militarization cap and already have the ideal active fleet mix we want... but that's still a ways away.
 
aledeth said:
Industrial scale replication of low-tech ship components seems like it can integrate with almost any tech base. Even if it was just the hull & frame of the ship that could be replicated, that's still a significant time-saver.

Mechanically, I'd guess integrating that tech would give us a reduction to construction times, and possibly Bulk Resource discounts too.

Even without all those bonuses? There's only a few hundred thousand of them left. I don't want to see them go off into the void alone where who-knows-what could find and eat/enslave them.
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Yup. Just tell the replicator to leave out all the stuff it can't do, and install that tge old fashioned way.

Sayle said:
@OneirosTheWriter Apologies if this has been asked before, but what program do you use to roll this? I can imagine this kind of automation opening up some game possibilities for other quest-runners that weren't possible previous. Some of my games have failed for the complexity of rolling combat.
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Seems like something you could write yourself. It's not that complex.
 
TBH I don't think we should try and start diplomatic actions with the Kadeshi with the intention of eventually making them members of the Federation. I think it would be unwelcome as we're so much more dominant than they are given the catastrophic losses they have suffered (and which we are partly to blame for), and I think that it would be seen by the Romulans as an aggressive action.

Instead, I think we should offer them whatever aid they need/we can spare to rebuild (ideally alongside the Romulans), as it's literally the least we could do and they could be a useful way of policing the neutral zone and preventing another war from breaking out.
 
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Sayle said:
@OneirosTheWriter Apologies if this has been asked before, but what program do you use to roll this? I can imagine this kind of automation opening up some game possibilities for other quest-runners that weren't possible previous. Some of my games have failed for the complexity of rolling combat.
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Something Oneiros custom wrote for this game. Unless you want to copy the mechanics very closely it should be about as much work to adapt as to write something similar for your game from scratch, should be possible to do in any programming language in somewhere between an hour and a few days (depending on how complex, you can always make things complicated enough to require years of course). If you can't program yourself yet you could either ask if any of your players can help or use it as an opportunity to learn programming, it seems like a reasonably beginner friendly project.
 
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prometheus110 said:
TBH I don't think we should try and start diplomatic actions with the Kadeshi with the intention of eventually making them members of the Federation. I think it would be unwelcome as we're so much more dominant than they are given the catastrophic losses they have suffered (and which we are partly to blame for),
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What? Where did that nonsensical idea come from?

The Federation is not in any way to blame for the Beast. It did not make the Beast. It did not release the Beast. It did at no point do anything other than oppose the Beast with all its might.

Don't accept fault for things you aren't at fault for. Other people might start to believe it.

As for the Kadeshi, yeah, there's a good chance they won't be interested in joining the Federation. That doesn't mean diplomacy with them isn't highly advisable. They have some interesting pieces of technology which might be of use to the Federation, and the Federation has plenty of technology which might be of use to the Kadeshi.

The opportunity for mutual benefit through cooperation and/or a simple trade should be obvious. Seize it.
 
aeqnai said:
Not really necessarily in this quest (or even in canon, considering Star Trek mapping is a notoriously inexact science). We seem to actually have a Federation limited mostly to the assets of the four founding races plus a small amount extra; much of the space TNG's Federation claimed is far from our grasp. Remember, in DS9 Betazed was considered to be really fucking close to the heart of the Federation, and the Dominion's attack on it a sign that defeat was imminent. Here, we don't even have Betazed yet.
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Well, if you assume that Federation space is actually discontinuous bubbles and strings (all of those with more holes than a swiss cheese) in a 3-dimensional space, rather than a 2 dimensional blob on a 2 dimensional map, then the lines in the scripts make a surprising amount of sense...

Agreed that the maps in various published materials don't tend to make sense.

fasquardon
 
Sayle said:
@OneirosTheWriter Apologies if this has been asked before, but what program do you use to roll this? I can imagine this kind of automation opening up some game possibilities for other quest-runners that weren't possible previous. Some of my games have failed for the complexity of rolling combat.
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I'm a code monkey by profession so I scratch-built a pair of programs. At the moment the abstracted nature of the stats probably give a bit of leeway for different settings, so if you're interested in something that could suit you, I might be able to adjust a version of it for you?
 
Driven by Apathy said:
As for the Kadeshi, yeah, there's a good chance they won't be interested in joining the Federation. That doesn't mean diplomacy with them isn't highly advisable. They have some interesting pieces of technology which might be of use to the Federation, and the Federation has plenty of technology which might be of use to the Kadeshi.

The opportunity for mutual benefit through cooperation and/or a simple trade should be obvious. Seize it.
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I think maybe we should ask @OneirosTheWriter for some clarification. What exactly can "Diplomatic Push with the Kadeshi" accomplish? What will it not accomplish? Can it do this "technology trade" people keep talking about? Does the vote need clarification if people voting for a Kadeshi push want one specific thing?

@OneirosTheWriter ?
 
A Fed Council diplomatic push directed at a non-affiliate will apply one additional diplomatic increase roll. Directed at an affiliate will generate a roll each quarter. It's there for increasing relations with the aim of gaining affiliates and converting them into members. Members share pretty much all tech. Affiliates will share some things, depending on history, their own culture/personality, circumstance, and other things.

As a warning - do take note that the Kadeshi ships were quite small. The requirements of their technology scales badly. Remember, industrial replicators ARE a thing in Star Trek, but large ships still take a long time to build despite it. [Read: you aren't going to wipe out an entire gameplay mechanic in the first act]

It will take a lot of work to get that tech out of them, because it is pretty crucial tech to them, not something they give out freely.
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
A Fed Council diplomatic push directed at a non-affiliate will apply one additional diplomatic increase roll. Directed at an affiliate will generate a roll each quarter. It's there for increasing relations with the aim of gaining affiliates and converting them into members. Members share pretty much all tech. Affiliates will share some things, depending on history, their own culture/personality, circumstance, and other things.

As a warning - do take note that the Kadeshi ships were quite small. The requirements of their technology scales badly. Remember, industrial replicators ARE a thing in Star Trek, but large ships still take a long time to build despite it. [Read: you aren't going to wipe out an entire gameplay mechanic in the first act]

It will take a lot of work to get that tech out of them, because it is pretty crucial tech to them, not something they give out freely.
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Hm...I think we should try to start adding these pushes to regular fed council actions in the future. We need to get our non-affiliates to the point where they're getting the auto-rolls, at which point they'll eventually become members. (i.e., within the next thirty years or so)
 
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