I honestly like being able to displace my mind, for role-playing purposes, into a world where the people of Earth collectively embraced the importance of space exploration, and did so early, actively, and without forcing. It is one of the things I actually enjoy about Star Trek quests.

I tend to resist efforts to take that away from me.

The obvious answer for why, having gone pretty damn far into exploration, they didn't get beyond the Sol System even sooner or develop warp before Cochrane would of course be the conflicts that grew into the Third World War.

(Also maybe the Mars rovers did happen, but much earlier and with larger budgets?)
 
I feel like a setting with an accelerated and expanded space program is still going to have the rover missions and such that happened in our timeline, except there's less time in between missions and funding to actually follow up on everything with manned missions.
 
That, plus "inventing warp drive is hard."
Well, yes. Though I always headcanoned that part of why Trek had a steeper tech curve was that butterflies from the various temporal incursions on Earth led to basic subspace components in tech being introduced earlier than it otherwise would've been...
 
Well, yes. Though I always headcanoned that part of why Trek had a steeper tech curve was that butterflies from the various temporal incursions on Earth led to basic subspace components in tech being introduced earlier than it otherwise would've been...
Well, the Augments would make a big difference (especially if that was a global phenomenon and not just one group of supergeniuses appearing in one place). Time travel events might help it too. On the other hand, the behavior of Zefram Cochrane during First Contact also supports the theory that humans just made it to warp drive relatively fast because we're the "hold my beer" species. :D

EDIT: As in, once the inspiration was there, Cochrane just up and did it, without even a very clear plan for what he was hoping to accomplish by doing so given what a comparative shoestring he was working on. Most other species we've seen on the verge of warp travel had it be part of some big project with a grand vision and heavy government backing. Cochrane did it in a cave, with a box of scraps.
 
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Well I mean even if there wasn't a manned trip to Saturn ~2030, we know they launched more Voyager(pioneer?) probes overall. It's not like it has to be a choice between "there was no changes to space exploration" and "more space exploration but with SATURN SHOT in the first few decades of the 2000's"
 
Actually I figure that pp is basically equating to getting all the resources and crew to construct and manage that starbase. Given how huge starbases are and probably cost several hundred worth of BR, that 20pp is incredibly cheap.

I've been advocating for a while to have the option to spend our BR and SR instead or in addition to PP to build starbases, but haven't got any traction on that.
Starbases also don't go to war.
 
Starbases also don't go to war.
...Until we fight an enemy with Base Strike tactics, or liberate Bajor and decide to take the currently-being-built Cardie Starbase there for our own, only for that starbase to end up holding the most important chokepoint in this half of the galaxy...
 
...Until we fight an enemy with Base Strike tactics, or liberate Bajor and decide to take the currently-being-built Cardie Starbase there for our own, only for that starbase to end up holding the most important chokepoint in this half of the galaxy...
In the sense that you can't fly them to war, and are defensive in nature.

That probably makes it much easier to politicize around.
 
That, and the economic aspect. They're not just fortresses. They're places where civilian shipping can stop for fuel and repairs, they're safe havens from disasters or pirate attacks, they're potential centers for commerce.
 
Omake - Old Vision, New Eyes, Pt 2 - Simon_Jester
Just a piece to cap off the last thing I did, and cover the start of Bazeck's time working for Commodore Leslie in the Warp Core Fabrication Division of Shipyard Industrial Command.


OLD VISION, NEW EYES, Pt. 2

Central Office, Shipyard Support Command
San Francisco
January 23, 2312
1138 Hours Local Time


"Dizzy." Commodore Leslie nodded to his secretary. The Apiata enlisted spacer looked up from a bewildering array of two, three, and he suspected four dimensional displays. It wasn't every day that you found a secretarial candidate who could outperform modern expert systems at keeping track of everything. But Dizzinramira, formerly of a hive-colony harder to pronounce than her name was, could. He respected that.

"Yes, sir?"

"I'm going to be meeting with Captain Bazeck for a few more minutes in my office. Then bounce me the next wave of files I need to look at, but don't overload me. I'll hit lunch, oh... call it 1300 or so."

"Yes, sir." Dizzy made on odd, somehow understated gesture he'd learned to read as agreement. Or deference. Or something. Given Warp Core Fabrication's obligations to keep track of manufacturing and design work being done on or around a dozen worlds, the Apiata worker's meek, retiring hypercompetence was a handy thing. But he worried about the girl.

He supposed he could understand how she was so rattled, even now. It must be a hell of a thing, getting kicked off your planet with half the people you knew thinking you ought to be dead. And it was probably even worse than he realized, since as close as Eddie could figure, the Apiata saw it as a punishment for the crime of not loving your mother enough to suit them. Dizzy deserved better than that. Maybe Sue could think of something to do for her.

Eddie tossed his head, clearing his thoughts. A problem for another time; right now he had a Tellarite to boot up. The office could use someone top-notch handling core frameworks right now. If the fellow could make the shift to working planetside.

Gesturing with a sweep of his hand, he led Captain Bazeck into his office. Carefully, he sat down, muscles in his lower back protesting, then relaxing, as they unknotted themselves. Bazeck hopped up and bck into a chair and grunted.

"So, what happened to the last poor soul who tried to do this job for you, sir?"

"Eh, Obess is good, but he's losing his edge. Decided to bow out and go work for Yoyodyne as a consultant."

"So you wanted somebody sharp?" Bazeck's eye glinted.

"Yeah. Then they told me you were coming. We'll just have to make the best of what we've got, I guess."

The Tellarite snorted a laugh. "So what do you want me to fix first?"

"It all comes back to the Kadeshi fleet. You've been catching up on the news, I imagine, and- you saw them in orbit. Word is we're sending Stargazer out with them once she finishes commissioning trials and special loading."

"Mm. That's going to be a long trip. Really something, don't you think?"

Eddie Leslie, a man who liked to rib the new kids in the Explorer Corps more than most, tossed his head in acknowledgment. "Jealous?"

"After the Big E? Whatever you're hopped up on, don't let me have any."

Eddie laughed. "Isn't that the way of it? Well anyhow, it looks like they're off on a long damn cruise. Your division's first assignment is to dig up every plan we've got for repairing, mending, refurbishing, and jury-rigging a warp core. With, to make a long list short, space tape, baling wire, and whatever the Kadeshi can run up in those super-fabricators of theirs."

"...What, the Kadeshi can't make space tape!?"

"Hm. Well hell, maybe they can't. I'd better send a memo about that." Nobody should have to go off on a twenty-year journey into the deep dark without a healthy supply of space tape. Nobody, not even a bunch of Klingon raiders, let alone those poor bastards on the Pride of Kadesh. Space tape was important, Eddie thought with a conviction that blazed in his heart.

"So, keeping the big girls' cores running when they really, really shouldn't? Sounds like home."

"Oh, that's not all you'll doing for the puir bairns."

Bazeck frowned. "Sure you're speaking Standard, commodore?"

"Not one bit- but that was before your time. Anyway, that's the job you're coming into the middle of, but it's not what you're here for. The Fairy Godmother Department finally listened to me. We've got the next generation of heavy starting design work any year now, and it's past time to refit the Excelsior warp cores to a uniform standard. Which means we need a Block V installation for them, which means we need one that buzzes without being a damnable impossibility to manage."

"Which is what you really wanted me for." Bazeck's smile was more of a smirk.

"Why else? History repeats itself, kiddo. For your sins, someone decided you could take that tangle of overtuned interlocking kludges you've made of the Enterprise and put it into practice. See, you can fiddle around all you like. Our job is to make sure we can build the things. We're trying to get as much part commonality between the newbie ships and the Excelsior re-cores as we can, too."

"Right. Hope you're not expect me to pass on all my tricks, though. That differential valve-field... wait." Horror dawned on the Tellarite's face. "You expect me to turn that into something just anybody can run!?"

"Oh, I do. I do." The commodore grinned evilly.

"What? With the garbage they're passing off for main power lines these days?"

"You and the kids over at Electro-Plasma are going to have to work it out."

The Tellarite scowled. "Those paper-pushers!"

Eddie stopped. His eyes narrowed. "Okay, I'm going to stop slanging. Here's the honest goods, between you, me, and the bulkhead." He nodded at the closed door. Dizzy might be able to hear him; he wasn't sure if it was an Apiata thing or if she just had good hearing in particular. But the quiet worker-bee, bless her, would be discreet.

The Tellarite folded his arms. "What've you got in mind, sir?"

"Something you need to know this about our people here. A lot of whom are yours. Your many, diverse, talented, people, captain."

"Mm?" Bazeck frowned. "What about them?"

"You're a damn good engineer. I've worked with damn good engineers before. The best. You know where I come from, and I know what I'm talking about when I say this. Your people are a good team. Several of them, even. They can keep up with you. I've seen all this before, you see. Only difference, I reckon, is that the last miracle worker I worked with was a friendlier drunk than you. But say what you will about the man, he knew how to get the best out of a team. I'm betting you do, too. And you know as well as I do, it doesn't start with spitting on everyone who wasn't in the Corps."

The stubby engineer's jaw was set with a reply, but then that ticking brain kicked in. He thought about it for a minute, drew in a breath, let it out through twisted lips.

"Don't worry, sir. I'll remember."

"Good. We may be off the Enterprise here, but every grand old lady in the fleet is waiting for us to give her a heart."
 
Well, I wouldn't want to make Dizzy a representative sample of Apiata in the Federation at large, but yeah.

Basically, she's a worker who never really connected to her queen, and tried to "fake it till you make it" by working really hard and keeping to herself so no one would figure it out. Eventually, they figured it out, and, well... exile is better than the traditional Apiata approach to 'malfunctioning' workers. This whole experience had effects on her that it wouldn't necessarily have on all workers who leave Apiata space, but it's instructive to note that these are most of the people we'd be seeing, based on the reports we have about the whole situation.
 
I was thinking the ship, I hadn't even considered handing over the defectors. But in a comical way, what makes you think Linderley allowed anyone to know about what happened? The President sure. Certainly not each councilor. The Council would go "wait, you have a Cardassian ship? And Cardassian defectors?". Granted, need to know is appropriate, but still.

"But the Kadak-Tor was destroyed in the Battle of Hophos."

"That's not ... entirely ... accurate..."

"What? Which part?"
 
Numbers, yes. Total tonnage? Maybe not. Most star systems seem likely to be self-sufficient in the raw materials needed to survive and build an industrial base. There are so many mineral-rich planets and habitable planets in Star Trek that there's not much reason to settle a world that isn't habitable. Therefore, there is going to be little or no 'natural' trade in bulk materials between star systems. You can find stuff like iron and aluminum ore and oil (if you still need oil) anywhere you go. Likewise, realistically, for foodstuffs, unless you deliberately turn one of your core worlds into a stupidly overpopulated ecumenopolis, or somehow manage to destroy all your farming capability while having huge farming capability ready to go on another planet.

Similarly, there's not much reason for consumer goods to be manufactured anywhere but in the star system where they're going to be consumed, unless there aren't enough people IN that star system to support a market for the goods.

So the main purpose of interstellar cargo ships will be to trade in items so rare or produced in such small quantity that nobody in your whole solar system bothers to produce them... Or items that are 'exotic' for cultural reasons. Or ships that cater to the commerce of tiny colony worlds that cannot support a fully developed industrial base.

None of those provide much of an incentive to build freighters bigger than an Excelsior, or even a Connie.

Well, if shipping bandwidth was cheap enough, than yes I would expect a lot of ships to trade around conventional bulk goods. If the economics favor importing versus home-grown mining/growing/manufacturing for whatever goods, then importing is the way to go. I'd expect core worlds to be importing a lot of resources from all the mining colonies that are being set up to keep the illusion of post-scarcity going while preserving their environments. Then there's the non-trade factor of civilians simply traveling around for business or pleasure.

My point is that ships are apparently NOT cheap enough in Star Trek, at least not in the early 24th century, to support a relatively large civilian fleet. If they were, I'd expect the Star Trek universe to look more like pre-war Star Wars in terms of quantity of ships and prevalence of civilian traffic.
 
Well, if shipping bandwidth was cheap enough, than yes I would expect a lot of ships to trade around conventional bulk goods. If the economics favor importing versus home-grown mining/growing/manufacturing for whatever goods, then importing is the way to go. I'd expect core worlds to be importing a lot of resources from all the mining colonies that are being set up to keep the illusion of post-scarcity going while preserving their environments. Then there's the non-trade factor of civilians simply traveling around for business or pleasure.

My point is that ships are apparently NOT cheap enough in Star Trek, at least not in the early 24th century, to support a relatively large civilian fleet. If they were, I'd expect the Star Trek universe to look more like pre-war Star Wars in terms of quantity of ships and prevalence of civilian traffic.
One thing people are forgetting here is to maintain a divide between interstellar and in-system craft. There are a lot of civilian craft, including some true bulk transports ... but they don't warp between star-systems.

And among interstellar ships, it is still roughly a 3:1 civilian-military ratio.
 
One thing people are forgetting here is to maintain a divide between interstellar and in-system craft. There are a lot of civilian craft, including some true bulk transports ... but they don't warp between star-systems.

Then how do they do transfer of bulk resources to things like the Shipyards if BR and SR colonies don't have large scale freighters to move the ores/resources?
 
Then how do they do transfer of bulk resources to things like the Shipyards if BR and SR colonies don't have large scale freighters to move the ores/resources?
He's saying that MOST civilian craft aren't warp-ships, not that NONE of the civilian freighters are warp ships. Right under the bit you quoted, he says that civilian freighters outnumber our fleet and the member fleets by about 3:1.

I wonder if there are any really big passenger liners included in that number, or if we would have to let Cunard Lines have a couple of years with one of our big berths before we see any Starship Titanic.
 
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