Most likely they'd either interfere, or the power draw on the Core would be too much to be worthwhile for it.
Linked contents
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm not totally sure on the specifics, but IIRC there's something about how much space the polarisation relays take up that hampers installing new shield emitters on an old hull.
Here's Sayle's comment on refitting the Warspite, btw.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Do we have any WoG one way or the other?
Edit:
I hadn't hear of that, could you link to your source for that? Is it an in-quest thing or something from Star Trek canon?
That was about a major revamp including adding a secondary hull. Adding a shield generator without touching propulsion, weapons, or the hull plating seems much more minor.
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LunaMoth
Wings of Kynareth is my comfort song...
- Pronouns
- He/They
Polarized hull plating is kind of implied to just outright be inferior to shields, the NX-01 enterprise is the most consistently beat up hero ship aside from voyager, and is shown a lot visibly looking damaged. There's also the fact that polarizing the hull doesn't stop transporters, and that as weapons modernize it may prove less effective at stopping them. Polarized hulls are used throughout all the series, but usually not in battle, just as a means of escaping whatever space anomaly the ship is trapped in. Polarizing the hull also seems to become something ships can just kind of do whenever they want, although probably for power related reasons, they seem to leave it off unless its needed.
Polarized hull plating
Polarized hull plating was a defensive armored hull technology used on shuttles and starships. Before the development of deflector shielding, hull polarization was the primary defensive measure for starships against enemy weaponry. Unlike with deflector shields, transporters could be used by a...
memory-alpha.fandom.com
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Even if it's inferior to shields couldn't it be used to supplement shields? Instead of an enemy having to break through a target's shields they would have to break through the shields and then the polarized armor to inflict any damage.Polarized hull plating is kind of implied to just outright be inferior to shields, the NX-01 enterprise is the most consistently beat up hero ship aside from voyager, and is shown a lot visibly looking damaged. There's also the fact that polarizing the hull doesn't stop transporters, and that as weapons modernize it may prove less effective at stopping them. Polarized hulls are used throughout all the series, but usually not in battle, just as a means of escaping whatever space anomaly the ship is trapped in. Polarizing the hull also seems to become something ships can just kind of do whenever they want, although probably for power related reasons, they seem to leave it off unless its needed.
Polarized hull plating
Polarized hull plating was a defensive armored hull technology used on shuttles and starships. Before the development of deflector shielding, hull polarization was the primary defensive measure for starships against enemy weaponry. Unlike with deflector shields, transporters could be used by a...
- Location
- his hidden lair
If the primary limitations of defensive technology is energy budget and efficiency, polarized armor and shields would likely be less effective than using the energy and bulk of polarized armor to further reinforce the shields.
In a setting where armor is purely a passive defense or ways of bypassing or negating shields but not armor are a known concern- defensive layers makes sense. But if armor is competing with shields for power and mass budget, along with far more known ways of defeating armor but not shields it makes less sense to diversify your defenses.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You do raise a good point. That said given that reestablishing shields takes time it could make sense to have a layer of polarized armor behind the shields and when the shield collapses instead of waiting for the shields to regenerate you could redirect power to the hull plating to establish an inferior defensive measure immediately instead of a superior defence after a delay. Although if polarizing armor takes time as opposed to being instantaneous it might be better to dedicate the power to reestablishing shields instead. It's an interesting problem. That said even if it's more efficient to install shields rather than polarized armor things become more complicated when you're retrofitting an already armored vessel to have shields, the armor is already there and it costs nothing to take advantage of it, it may have been more efficient to outfit the Thunderchild class with shields instead of armor in the first place that was never an option, you have to work with what you have and what we have is a vessel with obsolescent but still effective armor technology which could theoretically be enhanced with the addition of shields.
- Location
- his hidden lair
True enough, but the options would be to 1) keep using this dated but still arguably viable warship in a defensive role as is given the low threat level 2) give this dated ship an expensive refit to make it less dated so that when a threat arises it'll be relevant 3) effectively keep the ship in reserve and bet on time, new technology, and new ship designs to provide an effective replacement before there a need for a warship of its size again.
Even if 2 would be neat, 1 and 3 are perfectly reasonable conclusions.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
My suggestion hinges on the idea that installing a shield generator wouldn't be that big of a refit but you're right, depending on the economics of it both 1 and 3 may turn out to be the ultimate result.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Refitting Warspite to modern standards would probably cost (in terms of industrial capacity) a minimum of half of what it takes to build up a Sagarmatha from scratch, for a vessel whose only expected role is to be either sitting in orbit or putting around a single system. I sincerely doubt Starfleet's going to bother with a modernization when the same role could be fulfilled by a new-build Saga doing her sea trials, or a Cygnus.
Honestly the best use for it is likely to park it somewhere useful, strip the nacelles off, and convert it into a space station.
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
There's also the option of only doing a rework of the ship's bridge (still likely a rather expensive endeavor, but far less so than anything greater) and turning it into a training boat that does patrols in the deep interior while showing bridge crews the ropes.
2175: Project Copernicus (Retrospective)
The First Starships of the Federation
Chapter 9: The Sagarmatha
When we think of the great early explorers, the same names repeat themselves. Enterprise, Excelsior, Constitution. Those ships and their crews that exemplify the Federation ideals of exploration, scientific discovery, and service to the greater whole. But practically every example that anybody will ever give you are all after almost a hundred years of Federation spaceflight. Was Starfleet just sitting around doing nothing all those years? Why are the NX-class and Sagarmartha an afterthought to the latter greats? Some people will tell you that time has dulled their memories, but I have a more controversial proposition for you. People don't remember them as Federation explorers because they weren't Federation explorers.
I can see the sceptical expressions now. Hear me out. There is a tendency in the retelling of history to assume that there are events that neatly divide two states of being - the before, and the after. Of course this isn't true, and we all know it isn't true, but it's how we tell our history to those who want the knowledge but not the context. Nobody has time to only learn history in the context! You'd never move past the first thing you decided to study. So we tell students and curious museum-goers a version of the truth: that the Federation was formed in 2161 from the Coalition of Planets, and the Articles of Federation established all those things we know and love: the Federation Council, the legislative capital in Paris, and Starfleet itself.
Except that's not what really happened. The Federation was established on that date, but it was not formed for decades afterwards. There were still so many questions to be asked, especially regarding Starfleet. Was it to be an organisational body which merged the member fleets into a single federal command structure? Was it an entity in its own right that covered the entire range of responsibilities, or did it only deal with Federation-wide mandates? When the Federation formed, the idea that there would be multi-species crews under the aegis of Starfleet Command was very much a fringe view, not an accepted inevitability. The Starfleet formed in 2161 would not be the Starfleet we know for many years.
So to return to the original question, why do we not remember its explorers with the same fondness as their descendants? I'll give you a simple answer. Before 2200, Federation Starfleet was just United Earth Starfleet with a different logo. There were no Vulcan ships. There were no Andorian crews. There were no Tellarite admirals. Meet the new management: same as the old management. Nothing meaningful had changed. Without the pillars of the modern Starfleet mythos, it just doesn't feel like Starfleet.
But in the Sagarmatha we can see some of the germinating ideas and strategies of the Starfleet to come. Like later explorers it was equipped with a wide array of scientific capabilities combined with useful engineering and support functions. In the same vein as the more militarised exploratory designs of the early 23rd century, it was equipped with the most sophisticated defensive technology available. It was the first ship to abandon the traditional silver-grey tritanium hulls of United Earth for the pale electro-ceramic that sheathed Kirk's Enterprise, though it was not until the addition of molecular duratanium that it would take on the subtle golden glow that defined the era.
Here also we see the close-in phaser emplacements near to the center of the primary hull, a design decision driven by the high expense associated with the fabrication of weapons-grade EPS conduits. This was also the last vessel which utilized phaser capacitors capable of holding a full weapon charge, an ability inherited from the phase cannon. However in a more advanced phaser the capability was rarely useful and the capacitors rapidly degraded in effectiveness as they were used. There is only one record of them being used in a combat situation, during which the UFS Kilimanjaro ambushed a Klingon D6 cruiser over Archer IV, turning a lopsided confrontation into an even fight that the Kilimanjaro won after sustaining substantial battle damage. Later vessels would draw phaser power straight from the EPS system as needed, having found it a cheaper and less maintenance intensive alternative.
Lastly, the Sagarmatha used the first mass-produced photon torpedo, fully abandoning the focused antimatter radio-thermal detonator for the modern antimatter-catalysed particle emission warhead. All told it represented a major technological step forward tactically, which proved very useful indeed in 2192 during the rapid-response phase of the Federation-Kzin War. In more peaceful pursuits the Sagarmatha was involved in three First Contact scenarios and remained a local explorer ship even after it was obsoleted in the long-range role by more modern designs thanks to its varied scientific capabilities, as well as representing a useful deterrent and emergency response vessel in the local Federation neighbourhood. However the ship was showing its age by 2240, with increasing maintenance costs prompting a full decommissioning by 2250.
In total, the Sagarmatha-class consisted of twelve hulls: Sagarmatha, Kilimanjaro, Seleya, Olympus, Fuji, Matterhorn, Denali, Vesuvius, Elbrus, Toubkal, Aoraki, and Sinai. Of these the Elbrus survived as a training ship until 2266, when an accident flooded the engineering section with delta radiation. Decontamination was deemed impractical and the ship was scrapped in 2268. The only remaining element of these vessels is a section of nacelle plating with the name and registry of the UFS Olympus (NCC-903) in the Olympus Mons visitor center on Mars.
Chapter 9: The Sagarmatha
When we think of the great early explorers, the same names repeat themselves. Enterprise, Excelsior, Constitution. Those ships and their crews that exemplify the Federation ideals of exploration, scientific discovery, and service to the greater whole. But practically every example that anybody will ever give you are all after almost a hundred years of Federation spaceflight. Was Starfleet just sitting around doing nothing all those years? Why are the NX-class and Sagarmartha an afterthought to the latter greats? Some people will tell you that time has dulled their memories, but I have a more controversial proposition for you. People don't remember them as Federation explorers because they weren't Federation explorers.
I can see the sceptical expressions now. Hear me out. There is a tendency in the retelling of history to assume that there are events that neatly divide two states of being - the before, and the after. Of course this isn't true, and we all know it isn't true, but it's how we tell our history to those who want the knowledge but not the context. Nobody has time to only learn history in the context! You'd never move past the first thing you decided to study. So we tell students and curious museum-goers a version of the truth: that the Federation was formed in 2161 from the Coalition of Planets, and the Articles of Federation established all those things we know and love: the Federation Council, the legislative capital in Paris, and Starfleet itself.
Except that's not what really happened. The Federation was established on that date, but it was not formed for decades afterwards. There were still so many questions to be asked, especially regarding Starfleet. Was it to be an organisational body which merged the member fleets into a single federal command structure? Was it an entity in its own right that covered the entire range of responsibilities, or did it only deal with Federation-wide mandates? When the Federation formed, the idea that there would be multi-species crews under the aegis of Starfleet Command was very much a fringe view, not an accepted inevitability. The Starfleet formed in 2161 would not be the Starfleet we know for many years.
So to return to the original question, why do we not remember its explorers with the same fondness as their descendants? I'll give you a simple answer. Before 2200, Federation Starfleet was just United Earth Starfleet with a different logo. There were no Vulcan ships. There were no Andorian crews. There were no Tellarite admirals. Meet the new management: same as the old management. Nothing meaningful had changed. Without the pillars of the modern Starfleet mythos, it just doesn't feel like Starfleet.
But in the Sagarmatha we can see some of the germinating ideas and strategies of the Starfleet to come. Like later explorers it was equipped with a wide array of scientific capabilities combined with useful engineering and support functions. In the same vein as the more militarised exploratory designs of the early 23rd century, it was equipped with the most sophisticated defensive technology available. It was the first ship to abandon the traditional silver-grey tritanium hulls of United Earth for the pale electro-ceramic that sheathed Kirk's Enterprise, though it was not until the addition of molecular duratanium that it would take on the subtle golden glow that defined the era.
Here also we see the close-in phaser emplacements near to the center of the primary hull, a design decision driven by the high expense associated with the fabrication of weapons-grade EPS conduits. This was also the last vessel which utilized phaser capacitors capable of holding a full weapon charge, an ability inherited from the phase cannon. However in a more advanced phaser the capability was rarely useful and the capacitors rapidly degraded in effectiveness as they were used. There is only one record of them being used in a combat situation, during which the UFS Kilimanjaro ambushed a Klingon D6 cruiser over Archer IV, turning a lopsided confrontation into an even fight that the Kilimanjaro won after sustaining substantial battle damage. Later vessels would draw phaser power straight from the EPS system as needed, having found it a cheaper and less maintenance intensive alternative.
Lastly, the Sagarmatha used the first mass-produced photon torpedo, fully abandoning the focused antimatter radio-thermal detonator for the modern antimatter-catalysed particle emission warhead. All told it represented a major technological step forward tactically, which proved very useful indeed in 2192 during the rapid-response phase of the Federation-Kzin War. In more peaceful pursuits the Sagarmatha was involved in three First Contact scenarios and remained a local explorer ship even after it was obsoleted in the long-range role by more modern designs thanks to its varied scientific capabilities, as well as representing a useful deterrent and emergency response vessel in the local Federation neighbourhood. However the ship was showing its age by 2240, with increasing maintenance costs prompting a full decommissioning by 2250.
In total, the Sagarmatha-class consisted of twelve hulls: Sagarmatha, Kilimanjaro, Seleya, Olympus, Fuji, Matterhorn, Denali, Vesuvius, Elbrus, Toubkal, Aoraki, and Sinai. Of these the Elbrus survived as a training ship until 2266, when an accident flooded the engineering section with delta radiation. Decontamination was deemed impractical and the ship was scrapped in 2268. The only remaining element of these vessels is a section of nacelle plating with the name and registry of the UFS Olympus (NCC-903) in the Olympus Mons visitor center on Mars.
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- Location
- Columbus, OH
Delightful technobabble.
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
As legacies go, a 75-year service life that also lays the doctrinal and technical foundations for the future of Starfleet is very respectable. It's a pity none of them survived as museum ships, but that's just life.
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A 75 year lifespan was definitely worth the price.
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
Even if it didn't explore terribly far, I'm sure there are many stories of these vessels pushing the boundaries of the Federation even just a little and finding out what's out there. All in all, it's a respectable history for this vessel we've created. Celebrations are certainly in order!
(I'll release my omake later in the day to give the update its well-deserved time to shine)
(I'll release my omake later in the day to give the update its well-deserved time to shine)
I honestly really like to not to do a timeskip. Because we already timeskip between ship designing turns. And time skipping wouldn't really work well with the tech progression mechanic.
- Location
- California
It was the high maintenance costs, but it works.
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
As @Silvis said, I think the length of time we go between design 'batches' should get us at least close to the TOS-equivalent era in a design phase's time, I would think. From the Curiosity to the Sagarmatha took us from 2162 to 2175, a span of 13 years. Another design phase of 10-15 years would put us in reach of either the TOS era or right into the Federation-Klingon war.
Edit: Memory (Alpha) has it that the Federation-Klingon war is from the years 2256-2257. With how canon has already changed due to our Romulan War playing out as it did, I can't say when it might start for us.
Edit: Memory (Alpha) has it that the Federation-Klingon war is from the years 2256-2257. With how canon has already changed due to our Romulan War playing out as it did, I can't say when it might start for us.
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