Starfleet Design Bureau

I kinda want to pull a sneaky switcheroo, 2 forward prototype 4's and an aft RFL.
Frankly at that point I'd just want to give it a Thunderchild Torp loadout, 4 prototype in the front, and 2 in the back.


Im going to caution against this line of thinking
Do note that the Klingons are just as capable of refitting their ships with new tech as we are, and remain somewhat ahead of us in the relevant military fields; for example, their heavy shields are about 70% more powerful than ours
While true, they were literally breaking down their d6s in order to make poorly produced d7s, while refits are possible given that i don't think they are likely, given they are trying to make K'tingas already and their d7 fleet is in shambles. Furthermore BoP of any variant are notoriously glassy. They're submarine equivalents, they hit fast, hard and heavy from nowhere but as shown in the movies die very very fast, doubly so if they can't get shields up in time once they uncloak. Something like the Thunderchild, Kea or the new Federation will give them conniptions, because if they uncloak, they die.
I do think it's kind of funny how we're basically redoing canon with SanFran's Miranda being the ubiquitous 'good-enough' ship that gets spammed everywhere while our Federation is on course to be a bloated dreadnaught that only exists as obscure statbook trivia rather than a meaningful presence in the fleet.

Funny in a sad way, that is. The worst part of the Klingon War updates for me was seeing how the Newton constantly got mentioned as the main ship on the frontlines getting the work done, when it wasn't a ship we had any hand in. It's gonna suck when the next major event happens and we hear about lots of Miranda action because we spent our time on a limited run novelty dick-waving ship that has the most absurd numbers in Jane's Fighting Starships of the 2250s but only exists as a single digit run of prestige ships.
The issue is the Miranda was a legitimately amazing design for the era, and one we can't really top because it's so good. Meanwhile the Federation class was a hot mess and rarely made, and generally was a Miranda but worse in every way possible. At least now it's a distinctly different design and has a use case, that of a fleet anchor for large scale fights, while also being a semi-decent cruiser as compared to hot garbage.

Heavy cruisers are always going to be more expensive and fewer than normal or light cruisers simply due to how much more resources need to go into them, complaining about basic math isn't going to help this. But whereas the normal federation was basically a joke this cruiser, and yes it's still a cruiser unless we go for the rollbar with bonuses/maluses, will be useful as a command/heavy cruiser that can and will pursue other duties in peace time. It's never going to be made in Miranda numbers, especially since we've future proofed the warp8 to warp 9 transition, but it will likely be the Miranda's bigger meaner brother for quite some time.


We were told from the start we had to justify it, that tactical ability had to be matched with usefulness in other fields, so we always knew we had to think really carefully about module choice to make this thing worth the investment.

But now we're at the point of Starfleet throwing up their hands and saying, "Fuck it, do whatever, we'll only build a couple anyway." Instead of being the fast response fire stopper we have all over the place solving crises, it's going to be some admiral's vanity flagship.
No, that's the rollbar with extra torps being the "Fuck it" right now we're on the edge, but as long as we don't go overboard trying to slap on 4 RFLs front, three on the back and give it 720 degree phaser coverage (360 twice for redundancy if one gets blown up), we can justify anything less.

As for being all over the place? Not happening in the next 20 years. Heavy cruisers are heavy, big and cost more, and while the Federation is richer now, it's not that much wealthier than cannon that it can spam Heavy Cruisers like Normal ones. That said this ship as long as we don't Chork it into Dreadnought territory, which Sayle has already warned us about, will likely be the leader of any major fleet action for a long while, as the Excaliburs can't take nearly as much abuse and are better off being skirmishers than being deicated fleet clashers.
 
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[X] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
 
In fairness, the Excalibur has last-gen shields (Type 1 Heavy); the Excalibur-IIs (post-refit) will have 44 shields (Heavy Covarient), which is...still behind, yes, but really not very far behind at all. (They might even have more if we get the Type-2 shields prototyped before their refit happens.)
At a hypothetical Excalbur variant's 44 Shields to its 50 Shields, the K'tinga's shields are 12 or 13% stronger than our heavy covariant shields. And we dont know what type of shields they are using
Best case scenario is that we're looking at their version of heavy covariant; worst case, those are their light shields

Insufficient data to speculate atm, especially since we cant assume NPCs have to follow our rules
While true, they were literally breaking down their d6s in order to make poorly produced d7s, while refits are possible given that i don't think they are likely, given they are trying to make K'tingas already and their d7 fleet is in shambles. Furthermore BoP of any variant are notoriously glassy. They're submarine equivalents, they hit fast, hard and heavy from nowhere but as shown in the movies die very very fast, doubly so if they can't get shields up in time once they uncloak. Something like the Thunderchild, Kea or the new Federation will give them conniptions, because if they uncloak, they die.
They were only doing that after losing more than a hundred and forty ships at Andoria
If Starfleet had suffered those losses we'd have been done; they had both the reserve D6 and the industrial capacity to continue producing currentgen warships after losing their invasion force

Let me repeat: the invasion force that died at Andoria was bigger than Starfleet's entire surviving force, and they still had reserves
The current-era Klingons are fucking scary
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Jan 7, 2025 at 11:05 AM, finished with 357 posts and 114 votes.


Combined both the standard nacelle votes
 
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At a hypothetical Excalbur variant's 44 Shields to its 50 Shields, the K'tinga's shields are 12 or 13% stronger than our heavy covariant shields. And we dont know what type of shields they are using
Best case scenario is that we're looking at their version of heavy covariant; worst case, those are their light shields

Insufficient data to speculate atm, especially since we cant assume NPCs have to follow our rules

They were only doing that after losing more than a hundred and forty ships at Andoria
If Starfleet had suffered those losses we'd have been done; they had both the reserve D6 and the industrial capacity to continue producing currentgen warships after losing their invasion force

Let me repeat: the invasion force that died at Andoria was bigger than Starfleet's entire surviving force, and they still had reserves
The current-era Klingons are fucking scary
The klingons by word of QM also burned most if not all their accumulated war loot on thier fleet and lost most of it when their fleet got destroyed at Andoria. The klingons don't persistently grind away at industry like we do, but build it up in treasure piles to be spent all at once, and with no promising major war loot from the last battle their economy is not doing nearly as well as ours. Will they do have better technology than us, they are not going to spent their now much more constrained economy on d6s, when said d6s are now woefully out of date, and making ambusher ships super tanky would be a needless expense.

At best we'd see some upgrades to the d7s which are already in poor condition due to the rushed circumstances of their construction, or the K'tingas which are and will be the real threat.
 
I don't know if there's enough options for internals to break them down in categories and exclude some beforehand.

Module wish list / brainstorming:
  • VIP rooms / diplomatic suite
  • Circum-rollbar strip park
  • Long-range sensors (for detecting/intercepting ships)
  • Small cargo
  • Cozmozoa studies lab (synergy with sensors)
  • Organic materials synthesis workshop (food & medicine; disaster relief) (ice cream)
  • Medium-to-long term guest studies lab (various science, think university grad thesis projects. Secondary diplo/outreach effects) (guest cast and technobabble-issue-of-the-week generator)
  • High-security goods vault (plague samples, crown jewels, master encryption keys, etc)
  • Fleet Ops CNC
  • Subspace effects observation/testing lab (4-nacelle synergy)
  • Strategic materials prospecting
  • Signals intercept lab (espionage/diplo, maybe sensors synergy)
  • Heavy tractor beams / extensible warp shell (for towing stations; 4-nacelle justification)
  • Non-humanoid and exotic-environment accessibility features (less a dedicated module, more budgeting extra space & infrastructure for fringe species needs; back patting + small diplo synergy)
  • Gravball court (special effects budget sink)
  • Specialist medical needs suite (things a small colony couldn't support, but would benefit from periodic access. Species-hybrid genetic counseling, high-end surgery, dental(?), psychic screening, doppelganger/bodyjacker detection, replacement organ growth, dog therapy, etc)
  • High-fidelity local sensors (prospecting synergy, targeting bonus)
  • Secondary computer core (boosts high-data tasks)
  • Xenoanthropology & culture labs (diplo, possibe espionage bonus)
  • Stellar evolution temporal/parallax observatory (science, watch stars "age" as we see different slices of their past from various distances as we warp by)
  • Federation cultural showcase & culinary outreach kitchens (diplo synergy, morale bonus) (ice cream)
  • Torpedo tuning & refinement workshop (tech maturation & adoption boost)
  • plz no antimatter tanks
 
plz no antimatter tanks
Range is related to efficient cruise speed, being approximately 6 months at cruise.

Assuming an efficient cruise speed of warp factor 6.8 (the basic value if we didn't pick cruise nacelles, so it's a reasonably safe bet) the ship will have a range without antimatter tanks of 157 light years unrefueled, assuming a similar increase as the Excalibur if we did add antimatter tanks (2.975x) then we'd get a range of 467 light years unrefueled - enough to go from edge to edge of the Federation (as it stands, at 150ly) 3x without refueling.
 
I'd imagine by the time the great rebuild comes around we'll have better than just the type 1 covariant shields around.
Hopefully
Presumably so will they. We'll catch up at some point, but no idea where that point is

The klingons by word of QM also burned most if not all their accumulated war loot on thier fleet and lost most of it when their fleet got destroyed at Andoria. The klingons don't persistently grind away at industry like we do, but build it up in treasure piles to be spent all at once, and with no promising major war loot from the last battle their economy is not doing nearly as well as ours. Will they do have better technology than us, they are not going to spent their now much more constrained economy on d6s, when said d6s are now woefully out of date, and making ambusher ships super tanky would be a needless expense.

At best we'd see some upgrades to the d7s which are already in poor condition due to the rushed circumstances of their construction, or the K'tingas which are and will be the real threat.
You are missing the point Im making
After losing 140 ships including 36x D6s and 22x D7s, they had reserves of D6s to strip as a basis for crashbuilding D7s, and both the technical ingenuity and industrial capacity to do so

Look how it takes us years to design a ship, and how the D6 at 60kt is half the size of a D7; turning one into the other is. a very impressive piece of work, especially at a couple months notice
And speaks to the MIC and economy behind that navy

Also note
The D7 push was done in six years, but that doesnt mean normal shipbuilding doesnt happen
The Klingons have two decades before the treaty expires; I assume theyll make use of it
plz no antimatter tanks
Why would we design a ship with quad nacelles for high Max Cruise and then not give it the extra AM to use that capability?
Even normal ships get it; Starfleet refitted the Keas with them during the war
 
Because the Warp 8 drive has a massive range boost included. Keas were upgraded because Warp 7 drives are inherently much shorter range.
 
Because the Warp 8 drive has a massive range boost included. Keas were upgraded because Warp 7 drives are inherently much shorter range.
These ships will only go 157ly at their cruise speed, going off of the warp 8 engine example of the Excalibur-class, unless Starfleet decides to mandate that the cruising time is doubled (in which case it'll be 314ly).

I'd only not consider extra antimatter storage if we get a 12 month cruise time anitmatter allotment as standard.
 
Hopefully
Presumably so will they. We'll catch up at some point, but no idea where that point is


You are missing the point Im making
After losing 140 ships including 36x D6s and 22x D7s, they had reserves of D6s to strip as a basis for crashbuilding D7s, and both the technical ingenuity and industrial capacity to do so

Look how it takes us years to design a ship, and how the D6 at 60kt is half the size of a D7; turning one into the other is. a very impressive piece of work, especially at a couple months notice
And speaks to the MIC and economy behind that navy

Also note
The D7 push was done in six years, but that doesnt mean normal shipbuilding doesnt happen
The Klingons have two decades before the treaty expires; I assume theyll make use of it

Why would we design a ship with quad nacelles for high Max Cruise and then not give it the extra AM to use that capability?
Even normal ships get it; Starfleet refitted the Keas with them during the war
We're going faster at cruise, which means we can go farther on the same tank. We can already cross the Federation on one tank. We're fine for range.
 
We're going faster at cruise, which means we can go farther on the same tank. We can already cross the Federation on one tank. We're fine for range.
The whole point of equipping quad nacelles on this thing is to allow it to burn AM at uneconomical rates which only works when you have large AM reserves in the first place. And that doesnt include the military implication of being independent of the need for frequent refuelling in wartime where antimatter is both fuel supply and explosive for your torpedos

Furthermore, the Federation is still growing in size; what might seem generous now is going to be just adequate in a couple decades.
 
It depends on what anti-matter tanks goes up against as an option, but I'm pretty open to them. Don't forget this thing also has the highest economical cruise despite not going with efficient cruise nacelles.

I do like the idea of a pharmacy/medical bonus module. I'm also still fond of the idea of naming these ships after member worlds and putting a park with said worlds native flora onboard. Sure it's a bit of a political thing, but I feel it's a nice synergy with diplomacy and crew comfort.
 
enough to go from edge to edge of the Federation (as it stands, at 150ly) 3x without refueling.
Why would we design a ship with quad nacelles for high Max Cruise and then not give it the extra AM to use that capability?

Crossing the entire federation without refueling is plenty, we don't need an additional 2x passes. Remember, we have Pharos stations for antimatter top-ups.

If this were an explorer, I'd say an enthusiastic yes to extra range. However, this is a defensive ship* that is intended to stay within our borders; we don't need that extra range.

And as your two (Edit: plus!) immediate responses indicate, if antimatter is offered, it will be taken, even if not needed**. We need to focus on module synergies to justify this ship, and I'd rather not waste the space.


* But what about deep strike capability? If we can spare our defensive line cruiser for deep strikes, the war's already over. The capacity is unneeded. But what about when the federation grows? Refuelling! Stations! And if it's not close enough to respond to an emergency on a single tank, it's not close enough to respond at all.

** As far as I'm concerned, if Sayle offers antimatter storage, then Sayle is choosing to include antimatter storage, it's such a reflexive yes-vote for so much of this thread. I specified a small cargo for similar reasons; if larger cargo is offered, it will be taken, regardless of actual need.***

*** This is, I think, why some people (myself included) want module plan/theme votes: so we can pre-emptively exclude certain auto-votes, and keep the theme of the dang ship on frelling target.
 
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The Federation needs to match the Excalibur's range. If it can do that without a tank, that's good. If it can't, it needs a tank. They're our two strongest ships and they have to be able to work in concert.

The Federation might be a better raider even.
 
I'll call the vote for the aesthetic rollbar and try and make it look half-decent. I'm thinking the next vote should probably be on whether you want to use the new or prototype phasers, since it feels like all the configurations would get awfully bloaty otherwise. The nightmare scenario would be the preferred arrangement of phasers being split between two phaser types and a second loadout the majority doesn't want winning instead.
 
The Federation needs to match the Excalibur's range. If it can do that without a tank, that's good. If it can't, it needs a tank. They're our two strongest ships and they have to be able to work in concert.

The Federation might be a better raider even.
According to my calculations it cannot, it'd be about 150ly short compared to the Excalibur without a tank.
 
I'll call the vote for the aesthetic rollbar and try and make it look half-decent. I'm thinking the next vote should probably be on whether you want to use the new or prototype phasers, since it feels like all the configurations would get awfully bloaty otherwise. The nightmare scenario would be the preferred arrangement of phasers being split between two phaser types and a second loadout the majority doesn't want winning instead.
How many phaser mounts configurations do you envision? If it's only 2-3 then it may be best to do is as a single vote item combining phaser type and number.

[] Phaser configuration A, old phaser
[] Phaser configuration B, old phaser
[] Phaser configuration C, old phaser
[] Phaser configuration A, new phaser
[] Phaser configuration B, new phaser
[] Phaser configuration C, new phaser

This gives us the most information about cost and capability up front rather than making us choose between more and less expensive phasers before we know how many we want to mount.

And because it's a single vote line the vote cannot split. The option with the most votes wins.

And honestly I can't envision more than 3 phaser configurations. You have forward/back only, 360 ventral, and 360 ventral and dorsal.

Ie - turns to shoot a target, rolls to shoot a target, and just shoot the target without moving.

And I am looking forward to finding out what "good phaser angles" on the command deck means.
 
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If we don't pick the new phaser and torpedo due to cost reasons after doing our best to make the best warship possible..
 
The Federation needs to match the Excalibur's range. If it can do that without a tank, that's good. If it can't, it needs a tank. They're our two strongest ships and they have to be able to work in concert.

The Federation might be a better raider even.
I doubt that. While the Federation offers massive improvements in Efficient and Max cruise speeds, it's our slowest Warp 8 sprinter. It's slower than the D7 when it comes to sprint, and I'm willing to bet it's gonna be slower than the upcoming K'tinga, since that's probably gonna be focus on being the answer to the faster Callies.

Federation
Efficient: 6.8
Cruise: 7.4
Sprint: 8.0

Excalibur
Efficient: 6.2
Cruise: 7.0
Sprint: 8.6

Attenborough/Atwater
Efficient: 6.2
Cruise: 7.0
Sprint: 8.2

D7 (for comparison)
Efficient: unknown
Cruise: 7.0
Sprint: 8.2
 
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