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Posting these scenes because I think it's useful to show what the Enterprise fighting a Bird-Of-Prey actually looks like:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhUEzTXvR-8


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPz-6HuM8Sc

Notably, at no point are "firing arcs" even mentioned or relevant at all. In the first scene, the Enterprise cripples the Bird of Prey with two photons (which are homing weapons with a wide arc of fire) after managing to detect its energy transmissions in time. In the second scene, it has to endure several hits, before eventually managing to detect Chang's ship, and destroying him with a single torpedo. Overall the match-up is much more like a surface ship fighting a submarine than a dogfight. This is not a coincidence; the original script for Balance of Terror (where the Enterprise fights a Romulan Bird of Prey in the Neutral Zone) was IIRC adapted or heavily inspired by a made-for-TV-movie about a US destroyer fighting a German U-Boat.

Realistically, the biggest deciding factor for a Federation starship fighting a cloaked Bird of Prey is whether the starship detects the Bird of Prey before it has a chance to fire. Which is entirely to do with our sensors and computers*, and not really to do with our phasers. If you can find the Bird of Prey in the first place, you can just shoot a torpedo at it and blow it up, like depth-charging a submarine. Whilst Birds of Prey do not always attack using their cloak, it seems to be the preferred option when attacking large Federation starships.

This may be because a Bird of Prey or even multiple Birds of Prey trying to fight the a Constitution-class starship head-on would be disadvantageous. It is the equivalent of a U-Boat trying to fight a destroyer in a gun duel on the surface - a win condition for the destroyer. Also very relevant is this detail from the wiki summary of Balance of Terror, which I will repost and highlight since it contradicts some assumptions we have been making:
A cat-and-mouse game ensues. The Enterprise is faster and more maneuverable, while the Romulan ship has a cloaking device and immensely destructive plasma torpedoes. However, the range of these torpedoes is limited, and firing one requires so much power that the ship must decloak first.
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This might sound weird, but if you keep in mind that "Bird of Prey = Submarine" in terms of inspiration, it makes much more sense. U-Boats operating on battery power are much slower than surface warships. Similarly, a Bird of Prey which can only use impulse power whilst under cloak and has to watch its energy emissions is not going to be able to burn its engines white hot. Keep in mind that the Romulan Bird of Prey in Balance of Terror was also a few decades more advanced than the current state of the art!

So the entire scenario where a ninja swarm of Birds of Prey leap out of the shadows and then flash-step into the blindspots of our larger more ponderous ship does not really have any basis in how ships in Trek are actually seen fighting. There are scenes where small nimble ships evade fire, to be sure, but generally in a larger engagement, and I don't think "blindspot" has ever come up in any from the show that I can recall. There are other potentially more valid arguments for phaser coverage, but this specific reason which has been brought up a million times is basically like buying an amulet to protect ourselves from tigers.


*(Which unaccountably and completely unreasonably do not add to our Tactical rating even though they should, and have done in other Star Trek quests @Sayle has run on this very site! :mad:)
*(This is also I believe where the whole concept of "impulse power" as a distinct thing from the warp drive which came from. Although other episodes sometimes refer to "auxiliary power" instead.)
 
Skippy said:
Posting these scenes because I think it's useful to show what the Enterprise fighting a Bird-Of-Prey actually looks like:
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Click to shrink...

Definitely relevant but neither of these are a typical matchup. At Genesis the Enterprise is crippled and that Bird of Prey is a tiny, tiny twelve man ship. They should never have been fighting the Enterprise in the first place and the Captain knew it, but he was doing it anyway because Klingon and because of the Genesis Device.

Meanwhile, Chang vs Enterprise is much more typical... except that Chang can fire while cloaked. Normally you can't do that. Now it's much closer to normal - decloak, fire, recloak, reposition is the game, wearing the larger ship down. But there's going to be an actual window to respond, and the best way to do that is to have a phaser ready and pointed in the right direction when it drops cloak.
 
landcollector said:
When she was getting Riker'd. Observe:
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Not A Connie.

Skippy said:
So the entire scenario where a ninja swarm of Birds of Prey leap out of the shadows and then flash-step into the blindspots of our larger more ponderous ship does not really have any basis in how ships in Trek are actually seen fighting. There are scenes where small nimble ships evade fire, to be sure, but generally in a larger engagement, and I don't think "blindspot" has ever come up in any from the show that I can recall. There are other potentially more valid arguments for phaser coverage, but this specific reason which has been brought up a million times is basically like buying an amulet to protect ourselves from tigers.
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Even the scene in the Mirror Universe with Sisko taking the Mirror Defiant up against Regent Worf's supersize Negh'var , there's no 'blind spots' Sisko is exploiting, merely the fact that the Regent's flagship has dogshit targeting at point-blank range. (And we know that Red Squad's attempt to do the same with Valiant against a Dominion Dreadnought goes very badly...)
 
[X] Focus on Particle Density (75 Degrees Arc, 12->18 Damage)



What we could really use to make the most of all of this is some utility module to allow for more phasers in parallel. Would be nice to break up the binary decisionmaking with more variety. Engineering/Science/Tactical trinity, give Tactical more insert options alongside our usual run of labs and workshops.
 
[X] Focus on Maintaining Arc (105 Degrees Arc, 12->15 Damage)

I just like the large arcs even if it seems it's not gonna win.


But anyways, when we do get the next Enterprise I'm kinda hoping someone does an omake involving the various Enterprises from the same era but different universes end up interacting with each other. So the original, the movie and ours, could even through in the Terran's as well. Considering Star Trek could probably even happen.

Mostly things like noting the differences/divergences between the various versions.
 
landcollector said:
[X] Focus on Particle Density (75 Degrees Arc, 12->18 Damage)


When she was getting Riker'd. Observe:

View: https://youtu.be/6A9IZHWz45Q?si=n1WxnOqbxBYyp5bq&t=44
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Another weird matchup, because the BoP has the Enterprise's shield frequencies. Normally that fight should be a hilarious mismatch.

That said, BoPs do tend to get the drop on the Enterprise D. And it's usually because they wait for a vulnerable moment for who knows how long and then pounce out of nowehre.
 
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Art: Planet Lifter Tug
  • Media
    • So, @Sayle , if you were wondering why I asked about cargo containers...







    Article:
    The Planet Lifter heavy tug is a civilian cargo and utility vessel operated by the United Federation of Planets. The class has several unusual features as a result of its high-load hauling mission and overall design. Firstly, while most Starfleet vessels (and, indeed, most powers in general) arrange decks parallel to the line of travel, the Planet Lifter instead arrays its decks perpendicular to its primary axis of thrust. Most striking however are the ship's massively oversized Nacelles and impulse engines, needed to generate a sufficiently powerful Warp Field to operate at full capacity—no less than five Federation standard large cargo pods in a chain behind the ship. Three powerful aft-mounted tractor beams allow the ship to tow significant amounts of mass when unloaded, and more easily maneuver cargo containers for docking.
    The ship's massive 16.5 meter deflector is housed in a forward cylindrical blister off of the primary 30-meter spherical "crew hull", which contains the ship's crew quarters, bridge, recreational facilities, and so on. Two large two-door shuttlebays, operating twelve shuttlecraft between them (or more typically, a mix of shuttles and utility workpods) are located amidships. The aft hull is devoted entirely to the massive hydrogen tanks and enormous fusion reactor needed to power its systems at full load.

    Maximum Warp (unloaded): Warp Factor 5.9
    Maximum Cruise (unloaded): Warp Factor 4.8
    Efficient Cruise (unloaded): Warp Factor 4

    Maximum Warp (Full Load): Warp Factor 2
    Maximum Cruise (Full load): Warp Factor 1.8
    Efficient Cruise (Full Load): Warp Factor 1.333~

    Crew: 19 Officers, 36 Enlisted
    Length (unloaded): 277.5 Meters
    Length (Full Load): 1161 Meters (1.16 km)
    Beam: 164.6 Meters
    Height: 145 Meters

    (AKA: How do you think all those Pharos stations got built)
     
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    • Skippy said:
    Posting these scenes because I think it's useful to show what the Enterprise fighting a Bird-Of-Prey actually looks like:


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhUEzTXvR-8


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPz-6HuM8Sc

    Notably, at no point are "firing arcs" even mentioned or relevant at all. The Enterprise cripples the Bird of Prey with two photons (which are homing weapons with a wide arc of fire) after managing to detect its energy transmissions in time. Overall the match-up is much more like a surface ship fighting a submarine than a dogfight. The original script for Balance of Terror (where the Enterprise fights a Romulan Bird-of-Prey in the Neutral Zone) was IIRC adapted or heavily inspired by a made-for-TV-movie about a US destroyer fighting a German U-Boat.

    Realistically, the biggest deciding factor in fighting a cloaked Bird-of-Prey is whether the ship detects before it has a chance to fire. Which is entirely to do with our sensors and computers*, and not really to do with our phasers. If you can find the Bird of Prey in the first place, you can just shoot a torpedo at it and blow it up, like depth-charging a submarine.

    It's also worth noting that all of these match-ups occur with the Bird of Prey cloaked, because a Bird of Prey or even multiple Birds of Prey trying to fight the Enterprise head-on would be suicidal. It is the equivalent of a U-Boat trying to fight a destroyer in a gun duel on the surface - a win condition for the destroyer. Also very relevant is this detail from the wiki summary of Balance of Terror, which I will repost and highlight since it contradicts some assumptions we have been making:


    This might sound weird, but if you keep in mind that "Bird of Prey = Submarine" in terms of inspiration, it makes much more sense. U-Boats operating on battery power are much slower than surface warships. Similarly, a Bird of Prey which can only use impulse power whilst under cloak and has to watch its energy emissions is not going to be able to burn its engines white hot. Keep in mind that the Romulan Bird of Prey in Balance of Terror was also a few decades more advanced than the current state of the art!

    So the entire scenario where a ninja swarm of Birds of Prey leap out of the shadows and then flash-step into the blindspots of our larger more ponderous ship does not really have any basis in how ships in Trek are actually seen fighting. There are scenes where small nimble ships evade fire, to be sure, but generally in a larger engagement, and I don't think "blindspot" has ever come up in any from the show that I can recall. There are other potentially more valid arguments for phaser coverage, but this specific reason which has been brought up a million times is basically like buying an amulet to protect ourselves from tigers.


    *(Which unaccountably and completely unreasonably do not add to our Tactical rating even though they should, and have done in other Star Trek quests @Sayle has run on this very site. :mad:)
    *(This is also I believe where the whole concept of "impulse power" as a distinct thing from the warp drive which came from. Although other episodes sometimes refer to "auxiliary power" instead.)
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    That doesn't really line up with the description of the BoP that we got during the Soyuz briefing which indicates that it is very agile in exchange for being extremely fragile.

    This probably because "The Balance of Terror" takes place in 2267 (42 years from now) while the Undiscovered Country takes place in 2293 (68 years from now), they are more distant from our current time period compared the Soyuz briefing from 2185 (40 years ago).

    Since the Klingon War itself is roughly 15 years from now and the BoP showed superior Maneuverability to the "Maneuverability: Medium" Archer I suspect that the BoP is likely still under the Soyuz Briefing era Paradigm rather than the Balance of Terror one.

    An alternative theory is that it's all just the same BoP but constantly refitted which would explain why something that was very agile during the late 2100s is now considered sluggish by the mid 2200s.
    Sayle said:
    [X] Project Soyuz (Heavy Frigate)

    Before making your decision, you of course investigate the nuances of each request. What catches your attention in regards to the requested cruiser at least is the sensor readings of the new Klingon Bird-of-Prey. There isn't in-depth tactical data, but just captured sensor readings regarding it's accelerations and silhouette tell you a great deal. You're looking at a forward torpedo launcher in the nose and at least one heavy disruptor cannon at the tip of each wing. Maybe two medium cannons slaved together - it's hard to tell. The heavy single engine at the aft is probably a full fifth of the mass, although it seems tuned for sheer acceleration rather than maneuverability. With the impulse power it puts out you think the distinction is rather moot. If the ship's captain wants to slow down and turn on a dime, it can.

    The main downside is the sheer fragility of the spaceframe. Any major hit past the shields will almost certainly destroy it, which goes some way towards explaining how the Klingons can milk that kind of performance out of 150 kilotons of starship.
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    Either way, regardless of which Phaser we pick we aren't beating a D6 or D7 in a straight up DPS race unless we design a ship with superior maneuverability so that it can leverage both forward and rear torpedoes due to the damage disparity between our Phaser options and what the Federation had in the Canon timeline.

    Such a ship is going to have periods where a Narrow Arc phasers won't be able to fire as it maneuvers to line up either the forward and rear torpedoes unless we give it a lot of them.

    While there is a damage disparity this time it's only a 20% disparity compared to the prior 50% disparity when designing the OG Type 2s.

    As we saw with the Sagarmatha 6 Type 1 Phasers which had the same Arcs as Wide MkII's is enough for full coverage plus some level of concentration (in the Sagarmatha's case it was rear focus).
    Sayle said:
    That brings you to tactical systems. As you see it there are three major decisions to make, each relating to a different part of the ship. First is the main saucer, which is currently equipped with six Type-1 phaser emitters capable of covering all major firing arcs. Presently they have a strong presence to aft, but the forward arcs only have two emitters to cover them. Adding another two emplacements to bring the total to ten would further reinforce port and starboard, while also allowing three emitters to fire forward for each arc at the bow rather than just one.
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    Give how much the Federation has grown since then and the fact that we ended up with a whopping 12 Phasers and 2 torps forward and 1 rear for the Sagarmatha but still pumped out 12 of the things we should be able to afford greater level of weapons for our Constitution design.
     
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    [X] Focus on Particle Density (75 Degrees Arc, 12->18 Damage)

    I'm voting for density, but I feel this means a commitment to more maneuverable ships that don't need firing arcs because they can shift themselves to point at the enemy.
     
    darkstarling said:
    Definitely relevant but neither of these are a typical matchup. At Genesis the Enterprise is crippled and that Bird of Prey is a tiny, tiny twelve man ship. They should never have been fighting the Enterprise in the first place and the Captain knew it, but he was doing it anyway because Klingon and because of the Genesis Device.

    Meanwhile, Chang vs Enterprise is much more typical... except that Chang can fire while cloaked. Normally you can't do that. Now it's much closer to normal - decloak, fire, recloak, reposition is the game, wearing the larger ship down. But there's going to be an actual window to respond, and the best way to do that is to have a phaser ready and pointed in the right direction when it drops cloak.
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    Needing to have a phaser pointed in the right direction is never once actually brought up as a concern, though? Like if you can detect a cloaked Bird of Prey at all, you can pretty definitively just blow one up. Chang's ship for all that it is notionally more advanced is destroyed by a single photon torpedo. In Balance of Terror, they actually do destroy the Romulan Bird of Prey with phasers in a prepared trap; the difficulty is setting up a convincing ruse. It is disabled a single phaser salvo and obviously firing arcs are not brought up.

    The key point here is that lining up the shot is never the hard bit. Detecting the Bird of Prey or somehow tricking it into dropping its cloak in the first place is.
     
    Skippy said:
    Needing to have a phaser pointed in the right direction is never once actually brought up as a concern, though? Like if you can detect a cloaked Bird of Prey at all, you can pretty definitively just blow one up. Chang's ship for all that it is notionally more advanced is destroyed by a single photon torpedo. In Balance of Terror, they actually do destroy the Romulan Bird of Prey with phasers in a prepared trap; the difficulty is setting up a convincing ruse. It is disabled a single phaser salvo and obviously firing arcs are not brought up.

    The key point here is that lining up the shot is never the hard bit. Detecting the Bird of Prey or somehow tricking it into dropping its cloak in the first place is.
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    It's detected with a single photon strike. Then it's followed up on by volleys from the Enterprise and Excelsior.

    And they couldn't line up a phaser shot for when he fired, because he was moving too quickly while cloaked with no window to shoot back. The E had the same issue fighting the Scimitar, where they TRIED to shoot back but couldn't line up a response shot in time. Of course the Scimitar could shoot AND have its shields up while cloaked.
     
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    Steven Kodaly said:
    Well, technically several, but the rest of the cast is very grumpy with him at that point.
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    You're right, somehow I completely missed the follow-up shots. :facepalm:

    Either way though, it's basically presented by the film as a forgone conclusion once it's been detected and hit once. It's essentially like a U-Boat getting hit by a depth-charge, surfacing, and being finished off by the guns of a couple of destroyers.
     
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