...Holy shit, I knew it was bad, but wow.
Scaling Up
- Thread starter Kryslin
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Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
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- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
Got the three core book set (Handbook, MM, DM guide) of 4th as a Christmas gift a few years back. Thing is, I'd already played a campaign partway through using another friend's books. We never finished it as we hated it.
Never even unsealed/opened the plastic wrap. Went into Barnes & Nobles, and traded it out for some 3.5ed stuff I was missing.
Never regretted it once.
If I wanted to play what was effectively 'World of D&Dcraft', I'd go bother Blizzard. Except I can't stand that MMO.
(Tell me my loooong running half-elf/half-deep dragon multi-classed ranger-rogue no longer exists because they got rid of half-dragons? F. U.)
Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
picked up a copy of the 5ed core books a while back, but no one i game with likes 5e, (shrugs) i prefer 3.5ed anyway and start my first campaign (Eberron) on friday
FaerieKnight79
Verified Pixie
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It gets worse. The description of dwarves makes them fall in line with Disney's version of dwarves from Snow White. Elves? Well, I hope you want to play a whimsical elf as portrayed by Keebler cookie ads or how Santa's Helpers are typically portrayed. Gnomes? Oh, no, players can't be gnomes. That'd be too powerful, cause gnomes now can go invisible when struck with any level of force. What?! That was as far as I personally could stomach, so I never got to what the book used to describe the rest of the races. But in every case, the info on their society and views of other races from 2nd and 3rd editions was gone.
yeah, 4e was an attempt to bring in MMO players, but they went so far towards MMO style mechanics they lost a lot of older players to Pathfinder (or D&D 3.75 as I sometimes call it 
)
There's (lots of) reasons why 4E had the shortest run of the editions so far.
)There's (lots of) reasons why 4E had the shortest run of the editions so far.
FaerieKnight79
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Mechanically, 4e might have been fine. My group never tried playing it, cause the Players Handbook offended us so damn much. Amusingly, while we were looking over the 4e players guide, our host's cat knocked over a large bowl of tomato soup, then laid down strategically so that she (the cat) protected the 3.5 books on the table from the soup, and only the 4e book got ruined.
- Location
- Earth
As someone who does not know Drider lore does she need sapient blood or is this a case of rat juice boxes being a viable, if maybe not appetizing, option? Also does it just need to be blood or does it have to have some sort of mystical "life force" in it? Could some biotinker work up a beating heart that you need to "feed" every so often with a nutrient solution and in return get fresh blood from it and that'd work for her or would the fact that it isn't a "living person" make the blood not work for her needs?
As a vampire lore nerd this is the sort of question I always have when I hear something "needs to drink blood". For some vamps the beating heart in a box would work fine while for others it would lack the "spark of life" that they need.
- Location
- Here
I'm sorry, but anyone that thinks modern society has more then a passing resemblance to what was around a thousand years ago needs to have their head examined.
I cut my teeth on AD&D, had fun with 2nd edition, and played around a bit with 3.0. When 3.5 came out, my friends and I decided to just stick with the older books we already had...
Kinsfire
Verified {Redacted}
- Location
- New Jersey
Played 4e. When my wife and I moved 1600 miles from where we used to live, 4e were the ONLY gaming books that got thrown out. We have books from just about every other system we ever came across. I think I can find our Tales From The Floating Vagabond game books! (I still remember the illustration labelled, "Good night and may the good lord take a Viking to you" ...)
Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
- Location
- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
To put the edition 'wars' one way....
In 4thEd & 5thEd, this would be considered a failed item that was useless and or a throwaway that couldn't be sold, no one would buy, and be broken up immediately. As per how the developers wrote things for those editions.
In 3.5 and earlier, this would be used for psychwar in a straight up horror setting, and probably worth a mint. Might be cursed, might be legendary, might be both. As per how the developers, back then, wrote things for earlier editions.
And yes, there was a book released about 'gag' items, and those were some of the most broken things I've ever seen that could absolutely cause havoc if deliberately used 'improperly'. And no, I am NOT talking about that 'erotic' guidebook.
In the case above, you turn invisible, but all anyone hears is music playing. If I could rig that up to an old CD/cassette boom box? I'd immediately go and rip tracks from Jaws, Halloween/Elm Street/any famous slasher pics, Quake/any horror FPS, any famous horror PC game, or a random soundboard mix. And scare the hell out of them as mooks start dying, but all they hear is the music getting louder/softer.
Or if I couldn't? Invisible Scottish killing machine is fine too.
Roll for intimidation/Roll for a SAN Check...
In the newer edition books?
That'd not just be considered 'failed' enchantments, but simply be viewed as trash.
In 4thEd & 5thEd, this would be considered a failed item that was useless and or a throwaway that couldn't be sold, no one would buy, and be broken up immediately. As per how the developers wrote things for those editions.
In 3.5 and earlier, this would be used for psychwar in a straight up horror setting, and probably worth a mint. Might be cursed, might be legendary, might be both. As per how the developers, back then, wrote things for earlier editions.
And yes, there was a book released about 'gag' items, and those were some of the most broken things I've ever seen that could absolutely cause havoc if deliberately used 'improperly'. And no, I am NOT talking about that 'erotic' guidebook.
In the case above, you turn invisible, but all anyone hears is music playing. If I could rig that up to an old CD/cassette boom box? I'd immediately go and rip tracks from Jaws, Halloween/Elm Street/any famous slasher pics, Quake/any horror FPS, any famous horror PC game, or a random soundboard mix. And scare the hell out of them as mooks start dying, but all they hear is the music getting louder/softer.
Or if I couldn't? Invisible Scottish killing machine is fine too.
Roll for intimidation/Roll for a SAN Check...
In the newer edition books?
That'd not just be considered 'failed' enchantments, but simply be viewed as trash.
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BlazeStryker
<Confirmed Contradiction>
- Location
- Roanoke, VA
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- Him/He/Dude
Why do I have the feeling the newer editions are trying to eradicate the Bard because "nobody likes music and it's useless"? I hereby vow I'll NEVER use those nerftastic POS.
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
Look, let's be honest... as bad as 4th and 5th Editions are, they cannot compare to the clusterfuck that is any Palladium game...
The17thImmortal
Seeker of Sanity
FTFY. It's that fucking stupid.
Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
- Location
- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
Also known as:
"Look at the Chicago Nazi wannabes who dress like skeletons, burn books, kill librarians on sight, and commits complete genocide against everything that doesn't look human. You are to hate em. Hate em all."
*immediately the developers make them the main focus of one entire setting in their multiverse, with some of the best tech in the setting even though its a post-apocalyptic Earth and yet their multiverse has ultratech multi-galactic civilizations, and then makes them actual planetary heroes AFTER fighting off an actual war between demons & devils. And this is after their leader has loooong since been known as praising Hitler, but then saying he didn't go far enough.*
Yes, really.
The writers were that damn blatant.
Note:
Can we have Tia and/or Bahamut get caught snooping in on a group RPGing, and the duo pausing to be outright floored at what's being said, before they utterly roast the game developers for being idiots?
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Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
I was talking more about the whole system... but yeah, fuck KS and his obsession with the Coalition States and the other fascist hellholes. Like, fuck... you literally have other nations, who the CS would absolutely genocide, and that said nations know this fact... but they go on about how the CS is the best hope for humanity. Or how the New German Republic on the same Earth is also Nazi, has genocided non-humans and used them as meat wall against an evil empire... and said D-Bees (short for Dimensional Beings which are basically any non-human) say that they were in the right for doing so.
After the Bomb has the Empire of Humanity (basically their version of the CS), along with France also being Nazi and sterilizing people, yet no one is willing to stand up to them...
Like, fuck, I still remember the idea floating around in my head where Cardania somehow has a portal open to Canada in our world and gets fucking help...
Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
- Location
- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
Like I said, we need a moment where the various draconian deities spot an RPG session underway, and then roast the hell out of certain game developers. Or, if mods are twitchy, jumbled up names that are very close to sounding like certain individuals.
FaerieKnight79
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Palladium isn't a bad system in and of it's self. I've been running Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, Rifts, Nightbane, and Beyond the Supernatural campaigns since the mid 90's. The various character options in each game system are not balanced, but the palladium system wasn't trying to make everything balanced against everything else. It was trying to simulate comics, high fantasy, post-apocolypse fiction, and so on. And let's face it, guys like Superman, Flash, Hulk, and Thor are not balanced when compared to even most of their villains. Robocop is not balanced in his setting, and that's the entire point of the Robocop movies. Gundams aren't balanced, and never were. They are so far beyond any other mobile suit tech in their settings that it takes an absolute rookie piloting one for even the best of the best to hold their own. If the pilot is skilled? They can wade through entire armies without any backup.
It's up to the game master to balance things in a Palladium system game. Don't want invulnerable super strong bricks flying around? Then say "no" when someone wants to be invulnerable. I always do, because Invulnerability as it's written in Heroes Unlimited is just plain broken. You're 100% immune to anything that isn't magic, take half damage from magic weapons, but "physical" spells like fireballs and electric bolts do absolutely nothing to you because they're a physical damage effect and you're immune to those physical effects. Did everyone make a "street" level character? Then tailor their opponents accordingly.
EDIT:
As for the Rifts setting specifically, I think what people forget is that the Coalition States are not suppose to be heroes. They never were. They claim they are heroes, but they are suppose to be the central badguys of the North American continent. A badguy organization that is so powerful that fighting them is a dangerous thing to do, so most don't even try fighting them. Hell, one of the campaign arcs for Rifts is The Coalition going to war and wiping out the Magic Kingdoms, who are a simi-good society, for the inexcusable "crime" of using magic and psychic powers. The two weren't even in competition for resources. The Magic Kingdom was set up in an area the Coalition had zero actual interest in. The Coalition States aren't heroes of the setting. The heroes of the setting are independents like Erin Tern who travel the world exploring and documenting things, as well as organizing the defeat of such threats as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
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Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
The problem is that while it is claimed that the CS is evil, which makes sense as it runs literal fucking concentration camps and it's leader literally holds up Hitler as a personal hero and inspiration, everything always revolves around such. Erin Tern, despite being a hero and considered one of the top ten most wanted dead by the CS, has stated time and again that the CS is the only true hope for humanity in North America. That if the CS falls, somehow that will lead to a dark age and perhaps extinction.
You also got how shit literally fucking bends in order to give the CS victory after victory. Like, as you mentioned, Tolkeen was a semi-good kingdom. Once the CS was fighting them, said kingdom extremely rapidly, as in a few months, went full on baby eating evil, making deals with demons and devils among other dark powers. Lazlo? The other major magic using Kingdom? Only could offer thoughts and prayers as they outright stated that they would not fight the CS, despite said country outright stating that they would be next and genocided.
Oh, and let's not forget the dumbfuck Xictix bit. You know, the alien, hive-mind insects who literally attack any group larger than half a dozen due to being completely xenophobic and hostile to any form of life but themselves? Who quite literally have millions? The CS looked at their territory and decided to drive a literal fucking army through it as a way to get behind Tolkeen and hit them from an unexpcted question... and pulled it off with a minimum of effort and deaths on their part.
Oh, and let's not forget the entire society of magic users who are actually helping the CS, considering themselves dammed and more than willing to let the CS kill them, as long as they kill the CS's enemies...
FaerieKnight79
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In-universe, The Coalition States has some damn good PR. And it is one of the last bastions of stable society in North America. Not to mention strong enough to at least keep other threats in check. Which was precisely how they rose to power in the first place, I believe. So in a sense, if the CS did fall, society wouldn't be much behind. I'd have to read the Coalition War books to get the details, but I suspect the march through Xictix territory was a case of "constantly on the move" and "superior enough firepower to force through". With a heaping helping of "dumb luck" to boot.
Note, I'm not saying that the writers for Rift's story don't have a love for the CS, and set up improbable situations which make them look like unmitigated badasses. On the other hand, their forces are unmitigated badasses. Even the low level grunts are equipped well enough to be a major threat to pretty much anyone. The higher tier units and assault vehicles? Yeah, facing one and walking away requires dumb luck and a whole lot of power. Especially since while there are higher tier threats out there, the majority of things aren't that much more dangerous then someone with a basic laser pistol and cheap ass (35-40 MDC) armor can handle.
They are suppose to be the well established big bad which the players need to seriously consider if it's worth fighting at any given moment. Or if it's better to just try to avoid them.
Note, I'm not saying that the writers for Rift's story don't have a love for the CS, and set up improbable situations which make them look like unmitigated badasses. On the other hand, their forces are unmitigated badasses. Even the low level grunts are equipped well enough to be a major threat to pretty much anyone. The higher tier units and assault vehicles? Yeah, facing one and walking away requires dumb luck and a whole lot of power. Especially since while there are higher tier threats out there, the majority of things aren't that much more dangerous then someone with a basic laser pistol and cheap ass (35-40 MDC) armor can handle.
They are suppose to be the well established big bad which the players need to seriously consider if it's worth fighting at any given moment. Or if it's better to just try to avoid them.
BlazeStryker
<Confirmed Contradiction>
- Location
- Roanoke, VA
- Pronouns
- Him/He/Dude
The Shadowrun games by Harebrained Schemes got campaigns written up for them by players. Amongst them is the Antumbra Saga, starting out with a piece about a club someone wants sabotaged as it happens to have been built over a Site of Power. This leads to much ado about dragons, the Tir Tangire invasion, the People's University and the fall of the California Free State.
I bring it up because even the racist/speciesist bilge can be and is excused by those who would surrender liberty for even the appearance of security as well as by those who don't stick their heads out. Palladium's post-apocalyptic hellscape of the Rifts is honestly pretty post-human and the humans that remain are defensive beyond reason and have been for generations. And what you see... is the result. The player's outside perspective is simply not shared by the people who live there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
V: Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of everyday routine; the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, whereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle are celebrated with a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat.
There are, of course, those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.
How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well, certainly, there are those who are more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable. But again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The player has V's outside POV. The setting has the long since desperate survivors of, let's face it, the downfall of the Earth. Palladium was putting forth a nightmare scenario for anyone that started there and especially for anyone from another setting/reality that got dropped in. All the madness noted previously just shows they succeeded.
I bring it up because even the racist/speciesist bilge can be and is excused by those who would surrender liberty for even the appearance of security as well as by those who don't stick their heads out. Palladium's post-apocalyptic hellscape of the Rifts is honestly pretty post-human and the humans that remain are defensive beyond reason and have been for generations. And what you see... is the result. The player's outside perspective is simply not shared by the people who live there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
V: Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of everyday routine; the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, whereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle are celebrated with a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat.
There are, of course, those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.
How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well, certainly, there are those who are more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable. But again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The player has V's outside POV. The setting has the long since desperate survivors of, let's face it, the downfall of the Earth. Palladium was putting forth a nightmare scenario for anyone that started there and especially for anyone from another setting/reality that got dropped in. All the madness noted previously just shows they succeeded.
Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
- Location
- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
And now you've made me remember V.
*scribbles down notes to bug Leferts about eslewhere, involving a 4th or 5th year bet about a speech involving the letter 'V' far, far, too many times to be anything more than both hilarious, and intimidating as all hell, and whether or not a certain magically inclined individual could do it from memory*
*scribbles down notes to bug Leferts about eslewhere, involving a 4th or 5th year bet about a speech involving the letter 'V' far, far, too many times to be anything more than both hilarious, and intimidating as all hell, and whether or not a certain magically inclined individual could do it from memory*
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
Vth year would indeed be the best time.
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
IMHO, not exactly. D&D basically peaked at 3.5. 3e was good, but could be and was improved, while 1e and 2e had issues but were fun in their own ways, and what I've seen of 5e might put it on par with 2e or 3e, at best (though not in the same way). 4e didn't need to exist, and didn't need to last as long as it did, but the fandom would have been better off if WotC made a deal with Paizo to make Pathfinder official, instead of making 5e.
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