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Leechblade said:
Didn't the gods teach mortals magic to begin with?
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I'm not positive if wizardry was taught or figured out. Might depend on which campaign setting you're talking about. Of course divine magic was handed down and sorcery came from inherently magical bloodlines, and warlocks borrow power from other things.
 
Ravenwood240 said:
What are you talking about? In D&D, any farm child with an INT of 11 or better can learn to cast first level spells with a single scroll and no training, as long as they can read.
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Actually, there's one other key requirement: You have to be a wizard*. If you're not a wizard, no amount of intellect will let you peruse a wizard's spell book and then cast a spell. (Scrolls, being pre-powered spells, can technically be used by non-spellcasters who have the Use Magic Device skill. This skill is not usable untrained, however, which puts even attempting to use a scroll firmly out of the reach of your average farm child or superhero.)

* Or other appropriate spellcaster, but I'm using wizard here for convenience of expression.
 
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Wyvern said:
Actually, there's one other key requirement: You have to be a wizard*. If you're not a wizard, no amount of intellect will let you peruse a wizard's spell book and then cast a spell. (Scrolls, being pre-powered spells, can technically be used by non-spellcasters who have the Use Magic Device skill. This skill is not usable untrained, however, which puts even attempting to use a scroll firmly out of the reach of your average farm child or superhero.)

* Or other appropriate spellcaster, but I'm using wizard here for convenience of expression.
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Yeah, I believe the fluff makes it clear that learning wizardry takes years of apprenticeship. It's not as simple as reading a book.
 
Ravenwood240 said:
Look at the wizard build sheet for 3.5. you have to have an INT equal to spell level plus 10 and a copy of the spell you want to learn, nothing else.
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And how much training did said wizard have before the adventure begins? How much knowledge about Magic is common knowledge in the society? What fundamental information will they have that will be completely alien to most in Brockton Bay?

Using my metaphor from before, if you lack the concept of basic math, no amount of written information will let you solve physics equations. The people of Earth Bet have no idea that Magic Is Real, and lack the fundamental understanding needed to learn how to use it. For a Dragon, this understanding is instinctual, and as natural as breathing. Now, imagine trying to teach someone how to breath.....

Edit: aaaand Imp'ed
 
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Jacen1 said:
And how much training did said wizard have before the adventure begins? How much knowledge about Magic is common knowledge in the society? What fundamental information will they have that will be completely alien to most in Brockton Bay?

Using my metaphor from before, if you lack the concept of basic math, no amount of written information will let you solve physics equations. The people of Earth Bet have no idea that Magic Is Real, and lack the fundamental understanding needed to learn how to use it. For a Dragon, this understanding is instinctual, and as natural as breathing. Now, imagine trying to teach someone how to breath.....

Edit: aaaand Imp'ed
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Perhaps....

But Bahamut would be the sort to include the basics for mortals as well, else be amenable to his kin training their own forces or Paladins for his service.

Failing that, if Taylor needs to she could likely ask, same with turning her eventual mate into a Dragon.
 
Leechblade said:
Perhaps....

But Bahamut would be the sort to include the basics for mortals as well, else be amenable to his kin training their own forces or Paladins for his service.

Failing that, if Taylor needs to she could likely ask, same with turning her eventual mate into a Dragon.
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Remember that becoming a Wizard or any other form of spell caster that doesn't have innate magic requires either making a deal with a devil (Warlocks in 5e) or years of effort. Which has been pointed out - repeatedly - by other forumites.

Just getting to "level one adventurer status" is like getting an entire K-12 education in magic at a minimum. (It might require a college degree depending on the setting and DM decisions for world-building.) Wizards spend their time learning magic. Paladins learn the basics of combat, proper behavior, and a bit of magic. Clerics learn all the religious duties they are expected to perform and, oh yeah, magic.

Whether Taylor can help people learn magic isn't the only issue when you consider that, barring time skips, the story is unlikely to cover the entire decade-long training period for a "level one adventurer" Wizard.
 
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Ex Libris Taylor Draconis
  • Informational
    • To answer the questions posed about Taylor, and Books:
    • She has a rather good primer on magic in her bedroom, which includes the skills every spell caster should know the basics of. Schools of magic, stuff like that.

    • The other half of that book has been called Dragons for Dummies, or So, You're a Dragon now, Taylor. Includes the basics of being a dragon. And it's a bit more than eat a lot of food, sleep a lot, and BuRnInAtE-ing things. It's a summary, though, not a complete treatise on every known dragon species. Taylor knew from reading that she would have to somehow eat pearls and gems from reading, but wasn't quite sure how to go about it. Hence, Kurya's cookies. It does include the differences between Draconic Casting and normal arcane or divine casting.

    • In her lair she has a library of books containing most of the commonly know spells, 1st - 9th level. It also includes the recipes for crafting a selection of magic items, from common things to a few of the rare and Legendary items.
    One thing that comes up is that all of Taylor's spells are granted ATM, and she has her first lessons in spellcraft and arcana. And while I think something like The Sorceror's Apprentice might be a completely silly thing to do, it's not likely to happen. However, there were a couple of anecdotes. So, once she knows what she's looking at in those books, she can put together her own versions. Some of those granted spells will likely remain granted (namely things like Raise Dead).
     
  • Informational
    • TaliesinSkye said:
    I'm not positive if wizardry was taught or figured out. Might depend on which campaign setting you're talking about. Of course divine magic was handed down and sorcery came from inherently magical bloodlines, and warlocks borrow power from other things.
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    There was a tumbler post I saw that purported that wizards are a fantasy setting's version of computer programmers. Among other things, a wizard's familiar was their rubber ducky.
     
    In other words, yes Taylor can train magic users, assuming people on Bet can access magic. I wonder if that could score her a pay raise...
     
    Leechblade said:
    In other words, yes Taylor can train magic users, assuming people on Bet can access magic. I wonder if that could score her a pay raise...
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    Right now she only knows a few cantrips that aren't granted spells, but once she's learned a reasonable degree of magic I'm not sure if spending years teaching a few other people magic to a reasonable level would be the most effective use of her time or not. They could go on to teach other people, and them others, but it'd be a slow progression as the process seems to require a fair amount of one on one time for years under normal circumstances. It'd be decades to see a serious population of spellcasters on Bet.
     
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    In order to become a spellcaster, one must have what is called The Gift. What it is is different between each person who has it, but it amounts to an ability to manipulate and channel magic, whether it be arcane, divine, natural, or something else. Without it, your are more likely to fail, and fail badly, should you try to cast a spell from a scroll without having The Gift.

    Note that most magical creatures don't have The Gift. They have a few magical powers. However, the more intelligent the creatures are, and the more magical, it's far more likely that they will have The Gift as well.

    It goes without saying that every dragon has The Gift. It just takes longer for it to manifest in some species than others.

    On the subject of teaching magic : Yes, Naurelin could teach someone magic. It would take between 5-7 year of full time teaching to do so, depending on the aptitude of the student. It's very unlikely to happen during the scope of the story.
     
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    Kryslin said:
    In order to become a spellcaster, one must have what is called The Gift. What it is is different between each person who has it, but it amounts to an ability to manipulate and channel magic, whether it be arcane, divine, natural, or something else. Without it, your are more likely to fail, and fail badly, should you try to cast a spell from a scroll without having The Gift.

    Note that most magical creatures don't have The Gift. They have a few magical powers. However, the more intelligent the creatures are, and the more magical, it's far more likely that they will have The Gift as well.

    It goes without saying that every dragon has The Gift. It just takes longer for it to manifest in some species than others.
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    And will there be those among Taylor's allies who have the Gift?
     
    Kryslin said:
    In order to become a spellcaster, one must have what is called The Gift. What it is is different between each person who has it, but it amounts to an ability to manipulate and channel magic, whether it be arcane, divine, natural, or something else. Without it, your are more likely to fail, and fail badly, should you try to cast a spell from a scroll without having The Gift.
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    Where did this get established?
    Closest I ever heard about that was Sorcerers.
    I know Elminster had some kind of gift for magic, but never heard about it being a requirement. At most having brains enough to learn the skills, and having even a modicum of talent for spellcraft (more along the lines of an ability to understand it than any 'gift') was all I understood in canon to be required.
     
    Actually, that bit is one of the key premises of Ars Magica. It's borne out in several other works of Fantasy. In Harry Potter, if magic could be used by anyone who could simply read a scroll, why wasn't it? No, there was something that was a little different about people who could use magic, and those who could not. And even with those, there was a huge difference that amounted to how much training you had in the use of it. But the point remains, that it takes training and education by someone, who has their own criteria for what an acceptable apprentice would be.

    The fact that it requires something not quite defined, something different to actually work magic explains why fighters and rogues are more common than clerics and magic users. With clerics, they call it Faith. For arcane casters, they call it The Gift.
     
    Kryslin said:
    Actually, that bit is one of the key premises of Ars Magica. It's borne out in several other works of Fantasy. In Harry Potter, if magic could be used by anyone who could simply read a scroll, why wasn't it? No, there was something that was a little different about people who could use magic, and those who could not. And even with those, there was a huge difference that amounted to how much training you had in the use of it. But the point remains, that it takes training and education by someone, who has their own criteria for what an acceptable apprentice would be.

    The fact that it requires something not quite defined, something different to actually work magic explains why fighters and rogues are more common than clerics and magic users. With clerics, they call it Faith. For arcane casters, they call it The Gift.
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    Aware of it in other fantasy worlds, but not specifically in D&D.
     
    Kryslin said:
    • The other half of that book has been called Dragons for Dummies, or So, You're a Dragon now, Taylor. Includes the basics of being a dragon. And it's a bit more than eat a lot of food, sleep a lot, and BuRnInAtE-ing things. It's a summary, though, not a complete treatise on every known dragon species. Taylor knew from reading that she would have to somehow eat pearls and gems from reading, but wasn't quite sure how to go about it. Hence, Kurya's cookies. It does include the differences between Draconic Casting and normal arcane or divine casting.
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    maybe she could mention to someone that recently she has started to notice women's jewelry a lot more and feeling hungry when she does.

    TaliesinSkye said:
    Right now she only knows a few cantrips that aren't granted spells, but once she's learned a reasonable degree of magic I'm not sure if spending years teaching a few other people magic to a reasonable level would be the most effective use of her time or not. They could go on to teach other people, and them others, but it'd be a slow progression as the process seems to require a fair amount of one on one time for years under normal circumstances. It'd be decades to see a serious population of spellcasters on Bet.
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    taylor has cast a heap of heal and cure spells both on herself and on the undersiders. she has also cast protection from arrows or shield or mage armor spell on herself when she was getting sniped. i think she conjured a huge boulder as well during flight/breath testing as well.
     
    Eljin said:
    taylor has cast a heap of heal and cure spells both on herself and on the undersiders. she has also cast protection from arrows or shield or mage armor spell on herself when she was getting sniped. i think she conjured a huge boulder as well during flight/breath testing as well.
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    Those were all granted spells, drawing on the draconic gods rather than Taylor's personal understanding of magic.
     
    Kryslin said:
    Actually, that bit is one of the key premises of Ars Magica. It's borne out in several other works of Fantasy. In Harry Potter, if magic could be used by anyone who could simply read a scroll, why wasn't it? No, there was something that was a little different about people who could use magic, and those who could not. And even with those, there was a huge difference that amounted to how much training you had in the use of it. But the point remains, that it takes training and education by someone, who has their own criteria for what an acceptable apprentice would be.

    The fact that it requires something not quite defined, something different to actually work magic explains why fighters and rogues are more common than clerics and magic users. With clerics, they call it Faith. For arcane casters, they call it The Gift.
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    I think the two options for resolving the 'why doesn't everyone use magic' conundrum are either that only a few people have the ability (as in your model) for Reasons, or that it requires years of study and most people don't have the time, inclination, wealth, or opportunity to learn, sort of like how most people in the real world don't get Ph.Ds. Either one resolves things reasonably well.
     
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